Achieving and Maintaining sub-10% Bodyfat

Hey,

I'm a 17-year-old swimmer and I'm generally healthy. I try not to eat until I'm full (just not hungry) and I pay attention not to eat unhealthy foods that often.

I train twice a day, five days a week, for a total of around five hours. My problem is that I want to try and lower my bodyfat to boost my VO2-Max (maximum oxygen capacity), but whenever I try to lose weight I always feel really weak.

Right now I'm 140.0 pounds and 11.9% body fat. My coach says there will be a noticeable difference when I reach 7-8%, that I'll be much faster and be able to hold a higher heart rate longer, but whenever I start dipping down to 139-138, I have absolutely no energy and I just feel hungry all the time.

Does this happen to anyone else? Any tips out there? It's pretty frustrating. I just want to know what I might be doing wrong.

people are all built in difforent ways.  there have been countless scientific tests that have shown that some people are "desighned" to be heavyer or to have more body fat due to their genetics.

it might just be that your current weight is your optimum body type and that losing more body fat sounds like its going to damage your performance, rather than enhance it.

well it might be the kind of food your eating. With the amount of excercise you do, you should be eating more calories than a regular person. You also need lots of protein, which is necessary for muscle build up. Maybe your eating to much saturated fat. Have a closer look at your diet, and swap some of your fatty foods for more protein. but do not cut down on you calorie count to much, because u will go weak. your body needs the energy to keep you swimming so much!!

and at the end of the day lilmsbasketcase is right. some people are just made a certain way!

good luck!!

I agree with lilmsbasketcase.  At 17, you are still growing and shouldn't put yourself on a restrictive diet.   Besides, don't swimmers need to have a little bodyfat to stay buoyant?  You'd think if you were all muscle you'd sink like a stone.  Coaches can be silly.. no concern for health.  I'm sure you're a great swimmer.

I'm pretty sure that at your level of training, your heart has really learned to be efficient to the extent that your genetics will let it.  If you want to get faster, train for speed-- I don't see why you would need to lose weight for that.  If I were you I'd do my own research on this (check out professional swimming sites, medical advice, etc.. get a well-rounded picture) and not take the coach's advice as the absolute only truth.

I'm not sure where to start. Are you eating enough protein to maintain muscle mass? The miniumum suggested amount is 1.5 g / lb of body weight.

Frankly, I don't know much about how swimmers train, but you can start educating yourself on nutrition and muscle building.  Since you seem to be training pretty intensly, you may want to wait till the off-season to tackle the fat loss issue.

You also don't have to just "accept" that you're going to be stuck at a certain fat %.  You can experiment with your body. 

Read the intro to this story for some inspiration: The beast evolves

Then read his follow-up article for recommendations on designing your own fat loss program:  refined physique transformations

Good luck. 

Original Post by ds1973:

I'm not sure where to start. Are you eating enough protein to maintain muscle mass? The miniumum suggested amount is 1.5 g / lb of body weight.

 

 

Where did you get this information??  That would mean 210 g of protein for him!!!  That is ridiculously high and unhealthy.  Did you mean 1.5g/ kg body weight?

Original Post by monkeyhippy:

Original Post by ds1973:

I'm not sure where to start. Are you eating enough protein to maintain muscle mass? The miniumum suggested amount is 1.5 g / lb of body weight.

 Where did you get this information??  That would mean 210 g of protein for him!!!  That is ridiculously high and unhealthy.  Did you mean 1.5g/ kg body weight?

Good catch.  That figure is for FAT LOSS on an anabolic style diet.  The OP should probably shoot for 0.5 g protein / POUND body weight to retain muscle and lose fat if he's including carbs (see the 2nd article below Protein, more muscle less guesswork). 

From the Author of my prior articles himself:

As a baseline if you main goal is to lose fat:
- Protein: 1.5 to 1.75g per pound
- Fat: 0.5g to 0.75g per pound
- Carbs: less than 50g

You can actually calculate values from the numbers he cites in his articles as well. 

See his post on 4/27 at 8:32 PM:

bodybuilding on the anabolic diet

It's actually not unhealthy - you shouldn't scare people like that.  I'm taking in about 1.4-1.6 g/lb right now.  My carbs are almost nothing (<60g / day). The author also did this when he dropped fat.   Plenty of strength athletes are doing this.  There's actually nothing wrong with a diet that is all lean meats, vegetables, and healthy fats (like olive oil, fats from nuts and fish, etc). 

Please read more about the high protein myth:

Inconvenient truths - Protein, health and strength sports

Protein - More muscle, less guesswork

Edit: Oh, I see, you're a VEGAN.  Yeah, I get it now.  Don't worry, I'm eating enough chickens, cows and fish to more than make up for your boycott. 

It's actually not unhealthy - you shouldn't scare people like that.  I'm taking in about 1.4-1.6 g/lb right now.  My carbs are almost nothing (<60g / day). The author also did this when he dropped fat.   Plenty of strength athletes are doing this.  There's actually nothing wrong with a diet that is all lean meats, vegetables, and healthy fats (like olive oil, fats from nuts and fish, etc). 

Please read more about the high protein myth:

Inconvenient truths - Protein, health and strength sports

Protein - More muscle, less guesswork

Edit: Oh, I see, you're a VEGAN.  Yeah, I get it now.  Don't worry, I'm eating enough chickens, cows and fish to more than make up for your boycott. 

Please don't be rude or make this personal. My response had absolutely nothing to do with my being vegan, and you are just being rude.

First off, why don't you give some real scientific studies, not "tmuscle.com" articles.  There are studies out there, I found them and you can too.

To the OP:  here is a link stating the dangers of extremely high protein diets.  There are differing opinions out there about whether there are real health risks when following a very high protein diet.  You can make your own desicions and I wish you well.

http://www.hopkinshospital.org/health_info/Di abetes/Reading/highprotein.html

This link states the required protein intake for athletes in studies was 1.57g/ kg body mass.  Thats kilogram, not pound.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ucmb1x8e7 135b6v3/

Do the words "population specificity" mean anything to you?

 Results applicable to sedentary populations with type I diabetes are not applicable to athletes training for performance.Journal of the American College of Nutrition - the 0.8g/kg is only valid for sedentary individuals, for anyone doing any form of exercise the needs vary from 1.0g/kg up to 1.8g/kg normally, with a peak of up to 2.4g/kg for recovery from particularly strenuous exercise, at the start of any new exercise program, or in particularily high-stress situations in-season.

 Note that the stressors for athletes doing strenght sports is remarkably like the ones for dieters, and the UCLA recommends that active persons restricting calories (dieters) get 1.8g/kg bodyweight, exactly the same as a strength athlete does.

Original Post by melkor:

Do the words "population specificity" mean anything to you?

 Results applicable to sedentary populations with type I diabetes are not applicable to athletes training for performance.Journal of the American College of Nutrition - the 0.8g/kg is only valid for sedentary individuals, for anyone doing any form of exercise the needs vary from 1.0g/kg up to 1.8g/kg normally, with a peak of up to 2.4g/kg for recovery from particularly strenuous exercise, at the start of any new exercise program, or in particularily high-stress situations in-season.

 Note that the stressors for athletes doing strenght sports is remarkably like the ones for dieters, and the UCLA recommends that active persons restricting calories (dieters) get 1.8g/kg bodyweight, exactly the same as a strength athlete does.

I am not sure who you are talking to, but all of the info you stated I agree with and was not argueing against. 

If the OP ate 1.8g/kg bodyweight, then it would equal 114.5 grams protein per day, which is almost 100 grams less than if he ate 1.5g/POUND bodyweight (210 g).

Even if he ate 2.4g/kg bodyeight, it would still only be 152 grams, practically 60 grams less then the 1.5g/POUND reccommendation!

Well, you were using an article about the protein needs of sedentary populations with Type I diabetes to argue about the protein needs of an active athlete restricting calories, which is a catastrophic category error given the principle of population specificity.

 There's good reason to believe that optimal protein intake for athletic function for strength/power sports - like swimming, sprinting, baskeball, american football or any other sport that includes short bouts of intense effort- is 1.8g/kg-2.0g/kg and probably closer to the 2.0g/kg end of the scale than not.

 Some of the carb-phobes over on T-nation take things too far, but considering that T-nations contributors include Dr. Lonnie Lowery, president of the American Society of Exercise Physiologists, Michael Boyle, Mike Roussel, Alwyn Cosgrove, Alan Aragorn, Mike Mahler, Dan John, Eric Cressey, Dave Tate and a whole host of others that read like a who's who of "the most influential strength and performance coaches working today" you'd do well to judge T-nation references on the basis of the individual author, not on the web site it appears on.

monkeyhippy,

Maybe you didn't notice that I modified my original number to 0.5 grams / lb body weight after I realized my original number was based on those doing an anabolic style diet.  That would correspond to 1.1 g / Kg body weight.  Well within the range Melkor mentioned.  However, after glancing at the end of that "less guesswork" article, maybe he should be at 1 g / lb.

Again, anabolic style diets don't have to be unhealthy.  You can choose to eat lower quality bacon, sausage, fast food meat or you can go for the better chicken, lean beef, nuts, olive oil, etc.  I've been having bigger salads now that I've cut carbs completely and they're great.

You're probably right, I could have done without the vegan comment, but the smiley face was meant to indicate joking with you.  Oh and one thing I like about T-nation articles is that they actually do cite references, check out the end of Protein, more muscle, less guesswork.  So, if you had perhaps clicked on one of the last links, you'd have gone to an article in the journal of the international society of sports medicine.

The t-nation article also has a nice table for estimating protein needs based on your current training cycle.  At the low end, off season or moderate, they're still recommending 0.8 g / lb body weight.  They also recommend 1g/lb to "build muscle, gain strength, and/or lose fat".  The OP is an athlete trying to gain strength and lose fat. 

The OP is going to have to do some reading and educate himself and try experimenting with his diet.  He should know that it's not dangerous to up the protein as many in the medical field would have you believe. 

Melkor, have you had experience on an anabolic style diet like the one CT wrote about?  If so, what kind of protein / fat / carb intake were you at?

Original Post by melkor:

Well, you were using an article about the protein needs of sedentary populations with Type I diabetes to argue about the protein needs of an active athlete restricting calories, which is a catastrophic category error given the principle of population specificity.

No, I was using that article to show the dangers of a high protein diet.  AND I poseted a link below it that showed the protein needs of athletes , which was 1.57g/kg.

Anyways, I think we've all given him enough advice on protein :)

 Nah, haven't tried it much, and generally I prefer one of Thibs' earlier articles -The Truth About Bulking to the relatively carb-phobic approach of any of the versions of a cyclical ketogenic diet.

 There's sod-all evidence to suggest that removing carbs and impeding strength performance and power generation leads to better gains in strength and muscularity; back when di Pasquale worked with a few of the competitors in the now-defunct World Bodybuilding Federation all his guys came in fat and flat for the competition while the ones who didn't take his advice and had carbs while training came in shredded and with full muscle bellies.

 1g/lbs is a close enough approximation to (2.0g/kg:2.2lbs/kg=0.91g/lbs) that it works for back-of-the-envelope calculations; you wind up with a little higher than neccesary intake but for people in the non-heavyweight division it amounts to little more than the measuring error inherent in a food log, so I doubt it makes for a huge difference either way.

Original Post by ds1973:

Edit: Oh, I see, you're a VEGAN.  Yeah, I get it now.  Don't worry, I'm eating enough chickens, cows and fish to more than make up for your boycott. 

I am so incredibly shocked an offended by this statement! So, so incredibly shocked and offended. How could you say something like that? Did you even think at all? This was a completely unncesessary and insensitive attack on another person's lifestyle choice. I could not be more outraged by it if you had just bashed someone for being homosexual or worshipping a different god than you. You should be ashamed.

If someone disagrees with the advice you are giving a mature person would respectfully explain their stance and sources without getting low and dirty with personal attacks.

Yes, a lot of people use low-carb high-protein diets to lose weight. No, it is not always a healthy way to do it, and certainly it is a very unhealthy diet to maintain over a long period of time. It puts a considerable amount of strain on your kidneys as metabolizing protein produces nitrogen waste that the body is forced to release as urea. This toxic substance passes through your kidneys and out as urine. Actually, a lot of the initial weight loss you will experience during a high-protein diet will be water weight because the extreme levels of proitein act almost as a diuretic in this respect. You'll be dropping all the processed carbs out of your diet which will cause you to lose weight regardless, however, so that's the only real part of the diet that works.

The human body can only produce so much muscle mass at a time. 210g of protein a day will produce the same amount of muscle at 410g of protein a day, so I've never understood the body builder's obsession with stuffing full of as much as they can get. The excess calories will store as fat whether they're protein or carbs, but drastically unbalancing the nutrients you intake can have adverse effects sometimes bordering on the extreme. I strongly advise against such a young athlete cutting back his carbohydrates so dramatically, regardless of anything else. He's still growing and developing and the brain and organs need carbohydrates to do this. Whatever advice you give, that's something you should try to keep in mind. Yes, make sure you're getting enough as an athlete to maintain your health and muscle mass. No, don't try and dump more of it on your body than it can healthily handle.

Yes, I am a vegan. No, this doesn't mean I am anti-protein. I actually spend a lot of time thinking about how to get enough protein into my diet, and dead animals or animal products are not the only way to do so. :)

If you're struggling with reducing your fat percentage without experiencing fatigue I would reccommend you talk to a professional nutritionist and wait until the off season to make any drastic dietary changes if you decide to restrict your caloric intake. Instead of cutting calories perhaps you should consider maintaining the same calories but lowering your fat and refined carbohydrate intake? If you stick mostly to lean foods and clean whole grains I predict it might help you reach your goals. Better fuel, not less, should get you where you're trying to go. All that exercise and lean muscle you're packing should happily chow down on your fat reserves considering just how active you are. :)

Good luck! Let us know what works for you.

Original Post by viyahn:

Original Post by ds1973:

Edit: Oh, I see, you're a VEGAN.  Yeah, I get it now.  Don't worry, I'm eating enough chickens, cows and fish to more than make up for your boycott. 

I am so incredibly shocked an offended by this statement! So, so incredibly shocked and offended. How could you say something like that? Did you even think at all? This was a completely unncesessary and insensitive attack on another person's lifestyle choice. I could not be more outraged by it if you had just bashed someone for being homosexual or worshipping a different god than you. You should be ashamed.

If someone disagrees with the advice you are giving a mature person would respectfully explain their stance and sources without getting low and dirty with personal attacks.

Yes, a lot of people use low-carb high-protein diets to lose weight. No, it is notalways a healthy way to do it, and certainly it is a very unhealthy diet to maintain over a long period of time. It puts a considerable amount of strain on your kidneys as metabolizing protein produces nitrogen waste that the body is forced to release as urea. This toxic substance passes through your kidneys and out as urine. Actually, a lot of the initial weight loss you will experience during a high-protein diet will be water weight because the extreme levels of proitein act almost as a diuretic in this respect. You'll be dropping all the processed carbs out of your diet which will cause you to lose weight regardless, however, so that's the only real part of the diet that works.

The human body can only produce so much muscle mass at a time. 210g of protein a day will produce the same amount of muscle at 410g of protein a day, so I've never understood the body builder's obsession with stuffing full of as much as they can get. The excess calories will store as fat whether they're protein or carbs, but drastically unbalancing the nutrients you intake can have adverse effects sometimes bordering on the extreme. I strongly advise against such a young athlete cutting back his carbohydrates so dramatically, regardless of anything else. He's still growing and developing and the brain and organs need carbohydrates to do this. Whatever advice you give, that's something you should try to keep in mind. Yes, make sure you're getting enough as an athlete to maintain your health and muscle mass. No, don't try and dump more of it on your body than it can healthily handle.

Yes, I am a vegan. No, this doesn't mean I am anti-protein. I actually spend a lot of time thinking about how to get enough protein into my diet, and dead animals or animal products are not the only way to do so. :)

If you're struggling with reducing your fat percentage without experiencing fatigue I would reccommend you talk to a professional nutritionist and wait until the off season to make any drastic dietary changes if you decide to restrict your caloric intake. Instead of cutting calories perhaps you should consider maintaining the same calories but lowering your fat and refined carbohydrate intake? If you stick mostly to lean foods and clean whole grains I predict it might help you reach your goals. Better fuel, not less, should get you where you're trying to go. All that exercise and lean muscle you're packing should happily chow down on your fat reserves considering just how active you are. :)

Good luck! Let us know what works for you.

Get a life.  If you bothered to read the follow up, it was meant in jest and I stated that I realized it didn't come across well on the forum.   Geez.  I happen to have a very good friend from college who follows Jainism (religion) and is pretty strict vegetarian because of that.  He actually has a sense of humor and laughs at comments like that.

You're probably right about him needing balance with the carbs, and he's probably burning enough to be able to hit his weight in grams of protein, fat and carbs.  Again, he needs to educate himself enough to decide what's best for him.  However, high protein isn't going to hurt him.

Oh yeah, and if I were homosexual, I'd probably be offended that you'd compare the genetic predisposition of sexuality to a dietary choice.

You're way too serious and a good example of the problem in this country today.  Everyone is is offended by something.   Well you know what?  SUCK IT UP.  You don't have a right to not be offended.

I'm betting all this arguing and name calling makes a person truly happy about asking their question of this wonderful group of cake deprived individuals. Regardless, I'd go back to the above mentioned do your own research, consult your doctor and make up your own mind. THe coach may be right, may be wrong. There are so many opinions available when it comes to dietary details for athletes. It boggles my mind how many opinions there are regarding diet for normal people, nevermind those that push their bodies to their limits.

Original Post by weathervane82:

I'm betting all this arguing and name calling makes a person truly happy about asking their question of this wonderful group of cake deprived individuals. Regardless, I'd go back to the above mentioned do your own research, consult your doctor and make up your own mind. THe coach may be right, may be wrong. There are so many opinions available when it comes to dietary details for athletes. It boggles my mind how many opinions there are regarding diet for normal people, nevermind those that push their bodies to their limits.

That's true, I am cake deprived.  :)

You're correct of course.  The op needs to forumulate his own opinions and experiment to see what works for him.  Listen to everyone, try things that make sense and then keep what works.

I'll leave article and study battle to other people, I just wanted to post my personal exeprience. I don't do competitive swiming, but I do participate competively in cycling. When I dropped to around 7% BF, I felt really tired, now power on the bike both for endurance and high end. Power meter confirmed this. I went up to around 10-11%, and I feel much stronger on the bike. My 5 minute z3 sustained average power went from barely ~240W to ~252W. That is HUGE!

UD

niikolai - your a real cutie!

niikolai - quick question...

How many calories do you eat?