alcohol in relation to BMR - RMR & burn

Has anyone come across any research in this area? Or do you have any experience? Or do you simply have any thoughts on the following:

I drink a lot of wine (a little over 500 ml/day average). I am aiming to meet (at least) my BMR from 'full' calories (i.e. things packed with nutrients and vitamins), allowing the "empty calorie" wine to fill the gap between my BMR & RMR (sedentary), so that I consume total kcal of about my (sedentary) RMR. Weight loss comes from the addition of 'exercise' (in quotes because there is no gym involved). The French government health slogan is highly appropriate: "manger, bouger" (eat, move).

Figures (for this month):

BMR 2050 (2120 nutrients consumed)

RMR 2460 (400 wine consumed)

total consumed 2520*

burn 2850 ('exercise' average, net of RMR, 390)

net deficit 330

theoretical weight loss 0.3 kg/week

actual weight loss 0.4 kg/week (the other figures, though 'precise' can only ever be approximate)

* the maintenance level for my eventual (28 months hence) goal weight is 2455 (BMR 1705, RMR 2045, 'exercise' 410; RMR+'exercise' = 2455). I think it is important that my current intake and the far-off maintenance level should be fairly close (unlike the case of those who are 'dieting'). 

I think you're making a fundamental mistake treating  alcohol as a safe and  acceptable substitute for food.  It's not just a glass of liquid 'empty calories' that you tot up like any other.  500 mls of wine a day (3/4 of a bottle) is 6.5 units of alcohol when the recommended daily maximum for an adult man is about 3 units.  Five bottles of wine a week is excessive and unhealthy.  There should be two or three days a week where you don't drink anything at all, of course.   I'd be worried that on your plan you might well get thinner but you'd end up very hungry, malnourished and (over the long-term) with health problems.

In short.... one large glass a day with with two or three alcohol-free days could be a better policy.  For your health as well as your waistline.

I certainly don't count alcohol as a substitute (safe or otherwise) for food. For me, like the majority of Europeans (at least South of about 50°N), wine (together with bread and, at least in France, cheese) is an essential part of any meal (apart from breakfast!).

My 'plan' (as you call it) is not a plan but simply a relationship that I happened to notice between my BMR, RMR, activity level, food consumption and alcohol consumption.

It strikes me as an interesting theoretical relationship. However, I have found nothing on the subject (and there was certainly nothing I could find 14 years ago when I did my Masters, which included a goodly slug of nutrition).

Incidentally, 500 ml = 2/3 of a bottle (not 3/4). A bottle of wine contains 750 ml (a half-bottle 375!) and the 'baby' bottles, most often seen on aircraft, hold 250 ml. Your calc for units of alcohol is quite close - for the wines that I drink, 500 ml is about 6.19 units.

Apart from activity level there hasn't been much change in my consumption, either of food or wine (1-2 glasses with lunch, half a bottle with dinner) over the past 35 years (aside from cutting out alcohol other than wine about 20 years ago). It has always been a healthy diet and the few changes that have been made have been in the reduction of junk food from two or three times a year to at most once or twice a decade and the steady elimination of processed and industrial foodstuffs. I am hardly likely to make a huge change now, although I have cut back slightly on my consumption (a little less bread, cheese and wine), having noticed that it had crept up over the past 6-7 years (including an increase in wine consumption), with a consequent 20kg increase in my weight - sounds a lot (and it is) but standard calcs mean I was over-indulging by all of about 65 kcal per day (not a lot, but it sure adds up).

Your comments above reflect the current PC view and make specially good sense for younger people (because at my level of consumption, anyone with any pre-disposition, genetic or otherwise, to alcoholism, would surely have stumbled into it). Here in France, there has also been a move towards that view - the French ministry of health advocates a 20% reduction in alcohol consumption across the board.

Original Post by foiegras:

Your comments above reflect the current PC view and make specially good sense for younger people (because at my level of consumption, anyone with any pre-disposition, genetic or otherwise, to alcoholism, would surely have stumbled into it).

 PC?...  Fatty liver & cirrhosis (rather than alcoholism) are common health problems for middle-aged men that are habitual, heavy social drinkers. But if you choose to ignore that fact, say you're too old to change and keep going in the same vein, then that's your personal decision.  I don't think political correctness comes into it really.  Just a smidgeon of commonsense, perhaps.

PS... Be careful that 'foie gras' doesn't become a diagnosis rather than a userid

Europeans can drink a bottle of wine every day without becoming alcoholics, unlike us. They can also eat butter and cheese all the time without getting disgustingly fat like we do. We may think it's unfair, but if it bothers us so much we should have thought of that before we decided not to be European.

http://resources.edb.gov.hk/biology/english/h ealth/definition_health/alcoholism.html

A little quote from the above... "France has the highest consumption of alcohol in the world and the mortality rate of cirrhosis in France is also the highest in the world."  They might not be alcoholics necessarily but their livers are just as easily damaged as anyone else's.  They're not biologically different.  Anyone matching the 'bottle of wine a day' types on the basis of 'when in Rome'...  gets the outcome they deserve.

I know. I was just being bitter.

You mustn't believe everything you read. France is sixth in the world league table for alcohol consumption:

1 Uganda 19.47 litres

2 Luxembourg 17.54

3 Czech Republic 16.21

4 Ireland 14.45

5 Moldova 13.88

6 France 13.54

... 41 USA 8.51

source WHO: http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publicatio ns/global_status_report_2004_overview.pdf 

As for the garbage about France having the highest mortality rate of cirrhosis - not even in the same ballpark (figures - deaths per 100,000 - from same WHO report):

1 Moldova 65.03

2 Hungary 45.79 ...

7 Mexico 36.15 ...

15 S.Korea 20.02 ...

20 Germany 13.36 ...

25 El Salvador 12.41 ...

29 Denmark 11.70

30 France 11.45

There may or may not be some connection with the fact that the 'leading' countries are not generally known for wine production (possible exceptions 1 Moldova, 2 Hungary, 14 Chile, 18 Austria, 20 Germany and 21 Portugal). Quality of health provision? Maybe, but the time of the WHO report (2004), several countries (including Austria) had moved ahead of France (top of the world rankings about 2000).

PS. I don't make excuses (for anything).

[edit: oh the 'excuses' comment I'm referring to seems to have vanished]

On your original question of any thoughts.

It seems a reasonable approach as long as the BMR adn RMR (which I have never cared for) are specific for YOU rather than a generalization from a website. People's metabolisms can be vastly different.

But yes a 330 calorie deficit should give you a pound every 11 days...about that you caclucled as .3 kg/week. If it DOESN'T give you that result either your BMR estimate was off, you miscounted your calories, or miguessed the amount you were buring as exercise.

I find that there is no substitute for personal experience.

Wine is just another source of calories with one proviso, it's only function is to be burned for heat, but keeping up body temperature is really the main use of calories.

Ah... lies, damned lies and statistics....  

Sadly, you're not the first and you won't be the last person to think that sinking 2/3 of a bottle of wine every day is a smart thing to do and can find the weblinks to justify it.  You're clearly not going to cut down, I can see that.  However, I'd hate for anyone to come along and innocently think it would be good to take up your drinking habits as part of their healthy diet and weight-loss strategy.  CC doesn't specify in their posting rules that no-one should promote heavy drinking .... just disordered eating behaviour, starvation diets and 'habits'.   Pity really.

Oh dear,

1. I never said (nor would I) that it is a smart thing to drink wine with every meal.

2. The WHO report I referred to was not for justification but simply to rebut the nonsense that was in the web link you referred to.

3. I also hate the idea of anyone coming along and innocently think it would be good to take up my drinking habits (although it almost certainly would be - the BMR-RMR-activity-food-wine relationship with which I began this thread - if they drink as much or more than I do, since it is very possible that they lack sufficient nutrients to cover their BMR).

4. Where do you get the idea that I am 'promoting' heavy drinking? I most certainly am not. What I am interested in doing is to examine HOW it might be possible for an established 'heavy' drinker to fit that in with an appropriate food intake and lose weight. 

What I don't understand is why everybody is attacking drinking as though they've never gone through a phase in their life where they drank heavily. As the poster, I'm not advocating heavy drinking/alcoholism or anything like that, I'm simply pointing out that a significant amount of people do drink for enjoyment and that there's nothing wrong with that. There are definitely worse things that they could engage in. Furthermore, it's no different than anybody posting that they like to have fried foods occasionally so long as it fits into their allotment of calories for the day and people support them all the time because you shouldn't restrict yourself from the things that you really like. It may not always be the healthy choice, but life's too short not to enjoy every minute.

Too many people, think you should live your life this way or that way. As they say "People in Glass Houses shouldn't throw stones" My grandfather lived till he was 91 and drank every day, 3 or 4 beers. Drinking relaxes people and relives stress, which by the way is a big killer of people, it cause heart attacks, strokes, etc. People should not try impress their health views on others, we are all here to learn to eat and live healthier and lose or keep the weight off! Not listen to people lecture us on we should do this and we should do that, be positive and quit being a Moral Fiber Crusader with an agenda. Medical Science doesn't have all the answers on health and a what makes a happy life, some of it is environment, some is genetics and some is your metabolism! Set your goals, do things that your comfortable with and lose the bad habits, if you like to drink wine than have 1 - 2 glasses, cut your consumption and that will cut your calories and you can still enjoy your wine.

A few further comments relating to my current consumption, teetotalism and 'moderate' drinking. I am adding these comments upon (a) reflection, (b) consulting my old Masters notes and (c) checking current science.

The general relationship between alcohol and health for the population in general (but especially for middle aged and older men like myself) is known to follow a J curve. Very approximately:

teetotals - disadvantaged compared with moderate drinkers.

moderate drinkers (12-28g ethanol = wine range 100-300 ml/day) enjoy health benefits which clearly outweigh the risks.

my consumption (ca 500 ml/day) is higher than it ideally should be (for my age and individual circumstances, maybe 250-300 ml day - edit: So, for me, I should probably reduce from my current level of 3 'drinks' per day to 2 on the US scale. end edit) but lies at about the point (48g ethanol = about 500 ml wine) at and beyond which NO health benefits are observed. Obviously, as you move higher, so the health risks increase (possibly quite sharply).

Useful numbers:

Definition of 1 'drink' in USA is usually either 5floz or sometimes 6 floz.

1 floz (fluid ounce) = 30 ml (29.5735296 if you want to be precise).

30 ml wine contains something in the range 2-4g ethanol (according to the wine), 3g being a sensible average (and precisely right for 13° reds, champagne and 11° whites).

1 bottle wine = 750 ml = about 75g ethanol

500 ml wine = about 50g ethanol

1/2 bottle wine = 375 ml = about 38g ethanol

For anyone who does drink wine (or any other alcohol), it is a good idea to exceed the RDA of folate (400 micrograms) and also to ensure that there is no shortage of Niacin and Thiamin.

Original Post by foiegras:

my consumption (ca 500 ml/day) is higher than it ideally should be (for my age and individual circumstances, maybe 250-300 ml day - edit: So, for me, I should probably reduce from my current level of 3 'drinks' per day to 2 on the US scale.

 At last, you're beginning to make sense.....    It's not about BMRs or living in glass houses and throwing stones.  

Having lost a friend to cirrhosis who 'only drank half a bottle of wine a day to be sociable'.... I'd be very keen not to let anyone suffer the same fate.  She felt great right up until her liver packed up... not a sign there was anything amiss.