Are All Women Sexist?

Now then, that I have your attention.

I've noticed a most frustrating attitude among some members of the female community that seems to come down to "I/my female bretheren am better than the entire male sex." I won't say it's all of you, but it's enough women (and in enough posts) that one could begin to see a pattern.

So what say you Women? Are you Sexist? Is it just a small minority among you? Is it just a maturity thing, that as women mature they grow wisdom and see men as no longer the enemy?

Why so many angry, bitter feelings towards a whole sex? Are we, the men on this site, to believe that just because a handful of men may have done you wrong that the entire sex has done you wrong, included those whom have never met you?

Discuss.

Original Post by class_matters:

 Speaking as a male, and as a feminist, it seems as if a lot of people don't know anything about feminism or the feminist movement(s). There isn't just one version of feminism but a variety of strains and what are known as waves of feminism. We are currently on the third wave. Often when people are disagreeing with feminism what they are describing has very little relationship with most veins of feminism. I strongly recommend people read up on feminism. I recommend trying to read the author bell hooks who is an easy read but digs deep on issues.

 This is probably true, most people don't look at feminism from an intellectual perspective, but rather from viewing their own lives - "what have I experienced?"

I'm old enough to have been part of what is probably now called the second wave of feminism (and my grandmother was a suffragette and worked with Margaret Sanger in the birth control movement so I come by it honestly). 

Agree, bell hooks is an awesome read - very concise.

Just want to point out that most of us here on CC probably haven't experienced oppression in the way the women do who are living under Taliban rule, or in countries where female genital mutilation is still practiced, or where rape is used as a political tool of war/terror. 

I dunno, from my personal experiance things seem pretty equal to me (yeah, young white male talking, I know, my opinion means nothing). I mean, at the place I work, one of the managers, who is male, was told point-blank, that if he were a woman he would've gotten a raise that he didn't get. Personally, I think that's rediculous both ways, and a lot of places these days (speaking as someone about to enter the workforce) prefer women, especially in fields like engineering, which, I'll admit, is traditionally male dominated, for what-ever reason. I know that girls growing up aren't expected to do as well in math and sciences (not that they can't, just another arcane bias that exists) so there's not as many women in engineering fields as men, but I don't think that means they should get preferance for jobs based on gender, and neither should men. Gender should not by a factor in who get's a job.

But the fact that woman had been oppressed in the past is regrettable, but it is not a basis for what happens to you today, that's like saying my great-aunt's second cousin's third daughter wasn't hired because of whatever, so I'm entitled to something.

Original Post by class_matters:

Original Post by beckabooey:

Original Post by class_matters:

There isn't just one version of feminism but a variety of strains and what are known as waves of feminism. We are currently on the third wave.

... because even feminists have a hard time agreeing with each other.

Feminism isn't exceptional in this fact. Every single political/social/economic theory has numerous variations.

True, good point.  Lots of interesting points in your original post as well.

I think it was the shouting matches between feminist theorists in my GLBT Literature class that turned me off of feminist theory.  That and the fact that - at the university level - "theory" seems to equal "splitting hairs to get published and make tenure".  Of course, variations could also be viewed as progress.

...and this is probably a whole 'nother thread.  Maybe I should put down The Taming of the Shrew and pick up some bell hooks.

Okay, this is what I want to add to the post board. I'm not sexist for one. I really do love men, and don't have a problem with them at all. When it comes to the work ect, ect, I myself do have a problem with a man making more, if its' the same job.. This is what I don't get. We Women and Men are both need in giving life. But, this is the deal with all of this sexism that's going on today. No one understands that we both need each other to make one of us. PERIOD. A man making more money than me.. Okay,  I can't get upset and call him out because he makes more than I do. I just have to break down that wall and work harder so I can make more or the same

 Then you have to look at realationships.. Not good half the time.

Women get sorry a** men, and Men get sorry a** women. End of story. The deal with this is.. Sexist or not. Turn off the lights enjoy each other's company, and get close with eachother. That's why God made women. We are to help. Not only that, but to be his equal, some where down the road.. "We took out equal with women, and made it all about men. It should be 50/50. But it's not 50/50.

Question for the Women

 How many women do you see hanging from a trash truck? And if you was giving that job. Would you hang on the back or flirt to do less work?

Question for the Men

If you could give birth would you, and if you had to stop working for a year to take care of that child would you?

Not trying to start a knock down drag out fight so lets still keep this clean..

No Sexist at all.  

I consider myself a post-feminist.  Been there, done that, no longer interested.

 How many women do you see hanging from a trash truck? And if you was giving that job. Would you hang on the back or flirt to do less work?

Haven't seen many women trash collectors, that's true.  When I was a woman house painter and general laborer, I was usually the only woman on the site.  It never would have occurred to me to flirt to do less work, one because it wouldn't have worked, and two because, for god's sake, I was there to work, not to get paid for looking pretty.  Girls who want to get paid to look pretty need to be models, not construction workers.

And I'll add that I was hella respected for being a hard worker, and I was really proud of that.

Hi, I'm a new poster but I've been lurking for a while, and I'm a little confused. Is there a particular thread or comment that comes across as sexism against men? Because in the month I've been lurking I've seen "joke" threads about women not being worth listening to, threads on street harrassment where women have been told by some to just suck it up and take the compliment, and even on this thread some misguided attempts to blame feminism for inflation (cuz ya know, a long war, dwindling natural resources , and corporate greed wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with that.) 

 

Of course there are women who can be sexist for whatever reason. But personally, I don't think two wrongs make a right.

 

 

If you could give birth would you, and if you had to stop working for a year to take care of that child would you?

Hmmm. The first one is a question I hadn't thought about before. I think I would. I don't know if I'm an exception but I absolutely love children. That may have something to do with it. I would, clearly, be completely happy leaving my job to take care of children until they are old enough to go to school. I am kind of thinking it will happen that way, but that remains to be seen.

Now maybe I've been very fortunate in this respect but the place I worked at in Fort Mcmurray for a year gave equal wages to female and male EITs (Engineers in Training). I spoke to quite a few people who got the same starting wage (although it may have been slightly skewed on account of previous work experience). I am pleasantly naive of the skewed wages. I know it exists, but luckily, I have never known this to actually occur to anyone I care for. I consider myself and my friends quite lucky for that.

Women want 'equal rights' but only those that are convenient.

I would say that seeing this in many people I've talked to is the main reason that I think some aspects of the feminist movement are no longer feminism (the promotion of EQUAL rights between men and women) but have moved past that and seem to advocate that since women were discriminated against so brutally in the past they should now be elevated. I feel that THAT is too far, but I think we should still push towards equality. It just really, really frustrates me when I hear females go on about how unfair it is to be a girl, only to have me point out to them the perks they experience and have them brush my point off. I've had it happen numerous times and as I write this out I realize I'm guilty of generalizing a huge section of the population on a small percentage I've met. Alas. That being said I don't judge women before I meet them and I consider all women and men to be equal (much to the surprise of some parties) until one of them opens their mouth to prove me otherwise (sometimes they show it through their actions as well though).

Safiyah - might I add that I have found many of your posts to be very level headed and well thought out? I guess you have little choice in whether I add that or not. Just saying that I appreciate your opinion.

Women are not immune to being affected from patriarchy. It is something that we are all being ingrained with from birth.

 So to the guys I suggest that when you feel that a woman is being sexist to you, that you do two things: First, don't just assume that she's wrong and you're right, but instead reflect on the way that you treat women. Secondly, put yourself in her place and how the things that she has to deal with on a daily basis affect her.

Also, I suggest that those in college (it wasn't my route in life but to each their own) to take advantage of the opportunity to take some women's studies courses. And for those not in college to read up on some feminist theory - once again I highly recommend bell hooks.

 It's often forgotten that this is still a patriarchy, and that it can take a toll on women's psyche and self-esteem, etc.

I think all men should take the time you've taken to objectively look into women's studies before hopping on either side of the bandwagon. I'd suggest that women do the same for men, but we already are exposed to much of white male culture/history just by proxy. We'd benefit enoromously in society and in personal relationships if we'd take some time to truly understand the cultural implications put upon the sexes.

Original Post by smartjock256:

I dunno, from my personal experiance things seem pretty equal to me (yeah, young white male talking, I know, my opinion means nothing). I mean, at the place I work, one of the managers, who is male, was told point-blank, that if he were a woman he would've gotten a raise that he didn't get. Personally, I think that's rediculous both ways, and a lot of places these days (speaking as someone about to enter the workforce) prefer women, especially in fields like engineering, which, I'll admit, is traditionally male dominated, for what-ever reason. I know that girls growing up aren't expected to do as well in math and sciences (not that they can't, just another arcane bias that exists) so there's not as many women in engineering fields as men, but I don't think that means they should get preferance for jobs based on gender, and neither should men. Gender should not by a factor in who get's a job.

But the fact that woman had been oppressed in the past is regrettable, but it is not a basis for what happens to you today, that's like saying my great-aunt's second cousin's third daughter wasn't hired because of whatever, so I'm entitled to something.

 Yowzers. 

1st: The engineering industry (at least, from where I stand) does NOT prefer women.  Yes, some companies do attempt affirmative action hiring.  But many don't.  You know why?  They don't want to hire someone who is going to disappear in a year to go bear children.  They also are well aware that a lot of women do not enjoy working 'in the field'.  And by that I mean being sent out to an oil rig full of men who won't take you seriously.  Women also tend to be less willing to put in overtime hours, because they also tend to be primary caregivers and need to get home to look after their kids.  I am a 24 yr old female engineer.  I know several female engineers around my age, and many older.  I'm not making this **** up.

2nd: You can't write off past oppression so quickly.  Especially since it isn't all in the past!  Sorry to lump you in, but many young white males like yourself tend to think that because you don't see the problem, and you aren't part of the problem, that there is no problem at all.  So not true.  Don't get me wrong, I'm actually glad that most young men (at least, the ones I know) tend to think that the equality is there, because to me, that says this generation has mainly gotten the message.  But you aren't the only people out there, and you aren't doing the hiring (yet). 

Whew sorry, I got a little rant-y there.

This is a very interesting topic........loving reading it.

My own personal opinion as a female is that women have got too greedy "they want their cake and to eat it too" we shout, shout, shout about equal this and equal that, yet we still expect men to do things for us like hold doors open, carry the heaviest stuff etc. Equal rights means just that! so why do we not run in front of them to get the door.

I remember a classic example of equal rights being played out. let me say straight off I in no way condone physical violence from either sex, (few years ago) I was in a bar with some friends and there was a youngish couple having an argument at the bar, the girl kicked her bf, he did nothing, the argument continued, the girl slapped her bf across the face (quite hard), so he slapped her back, she started crying, her friend called the police on him, the police came and arrested her! because they said his slap was one of self defence, and there was a bar full of witnesses to back him up. I heard the girls friend say to the police, but he's a man and he hit a woman? the policeman replied "this is the age of equality, if you don't want to be slapped by a man then don't slap them first".

Thought he made a valid point......

We have displaced men in their role, we want to do everything that they do. I don't hold with that. I am more sexist against women that I have ever been towards men. There are jobs (I feel) are better suited to men and women quite frankly should just butt out.

If I'm stuck half way down a cliff, stranded at sea, trapped in a burning building, or my car breaks down etc.....personally I want to see a man coming to my rescue.

I say let men be men, and stop moaning when they are.

Isn't it obvious Hk that all men are superior in every way, and the 'ladies' are just jealous and lashing out?

(as a frothbeast I consider myself totally neutral on the subject)

Good to see this conversation has remained civil, and is still a good conversation.

But I want to bring up a point that people have skirted around. Do you think there is a link between feminism (or at least some people's misunderstandings of feminism) and sexism?

Yes I do....

you got my point...

 

Original Post by lynnhaslost:

Question for the Men

If you could give birth would you, and if you had to stop working for a year to take care of that child would you?

If I could give birth.. I dunno. Maybe. I know lots of women that don't love the process of actually BIRTHING but do love the end results. They deal with it. If it was men who gave birth and not women, I probably would.

Would I choose to stop working?
Possibly, if it really were in the child's best interest. Given the job I'm in right now, and if my wife could support me, very possibly. If I found a job I loved, that wasn't just another day, another dollar, probably not, no.

But even as you post these questions, it seems to me you lose track of the fact that women COULD, if they choose, probably be trashmen (I don't know many men who CHOOSE to be trashmen either.)
And I DO know many women who choose not to have babies or who choose not to give up their career for their children. These are legitimate choices in today's society. Would you ask any less of men?

Original Post by hkellick:

But even as you post these questions, it seems to me you lose track of the fact that women COULD, if they choose, probably be trashmen (I don't know many men who CHOOSE to be trashmen either.)
And I DO know many women who choose not to have babies or who choose not to give up their career for their children. These are legitimate choices in today's society. Would you ask any less of men?

In all due respect, I disagree based on my experience as a childless woman.  Complete strangers and coworkers constantly (at least once per week) ask if I have children and when will have have them.  They make random intrusive comments such as "oh it's so sad you don't have children" or "you should not wait so long" or some other insensitive statement as though I have not already spent a lot of time thinking and feeling about it.  For women, the choice to not have children or the inability to conceive is definitely not uniformly accepted.

I stand corrected. :)

Well.. I guess I'd still suggest it's a legitimate choice, just not a widely accepted one. :) Can we agree on that?

Original Post by hkellick:

I stand corrected. :)

Well.. I guess I'd still suggest it's a legitimate choice, just not a widely accepted one. :) Can we agree on that?

oh yes

Is it bad that I, for one, wish things were the same as they were back in the 50s even with the discrimination against women, I personally would love to be able to stay at home with the kids, not have to worry nearly as much about them going out and playing outside without being supervised because they may get kidnapped, not having to worry about credit card debt, when the kids for the most part actually respected adults and authority, most people respected our men in uniform both military and police/fire. It was practically unheard of to have random shootings in schools and places of business. When you could easily operate your own private business without worrying about corporate America burying you. Before you had to worry about sexual predators coming into your home on your computer and talking to your children. Granted I know a lot was also wrong with that time but heck I would wear a dress, high heels, and pearls everyday for that sense of security, false or not

Original Post by elizabeth91283:

Is it bad that I, for one, wish things were the same as they were back in the 50s even with the discrimination against women, I personally would love to be able to stay at home with the kids, not have to worry nearly as much about them going out and playing outside without being supervised because they may get kidnapped, not having to worry about credit card debt, when the kids for the most part actually respected adults and authority, most people respected our men in uniform both military and police/fire. It was practically unheard of to have random shootings in schools and places of business. When you could easily operate your own private business without worrying about corporate America burying you. Before you had to worry about sexual predators coming into your home on your computer and talking to your children. Granted I know a lot was also wrong with that time but heck I would wear a dress, high heels, and pearls everyday for that sense of security, false or not

Ahhh .... the misconception of The Good Old Times.  So, you've bought hook line and sinker into the TV version of what the 50's were like. You were born in 1983 and have absolutely no idea of what life was really like then. I'm willing to bet you haven't even really studied the true history and culture of the 50's.

I was born in 1960 and the world I grew up in was simpler, but not better than it is now.