What is the American Stereotype?
So these kids came over from france and visited our french class. They said the typical american stereotype is that Americans are all very very fat.
If you aren't in the U.S, what do you think of when you here 'American?'
Explain to me how opening a business or going to university and getting a degree and a job equates to turning their back on their culture.
Original Post by moonikins:
If someone believes something is impossible because of years/decades/centuries of their people being exploited, I believe it is arrogant for someone outside of the situation to just sit back and judge them saying they should "just pull themselves up by their bootstraps".
That makes no sense. Remembering that fair doesn't exist, if their is a path, regardless of the difficulty, to advance your interests and you don't take it, whose fault is that? Your own.
Should society work to lessen the disparity of difficulty for those with the most difficult circumstances (poverty and handicaps being the biggest in my mind) such that the path is similar to the mean? Absolutley.
But while society works on that, however slowly, do yourself a favor and take your life into your own hands.
Original Post by moonikins:
Here is where the stereotypical "American Dream" fails. Ideally, anyone can work hard and succeed. However, it can be extremely hard to break patterns of abuse, neglect, upbringing or culture in order to do the work necessary to pull oneself out of a bad situation.
If someone believes something is impossible because of years/decades/centuries of their people being exploited, I believe it is arrogant for someone outside of the situation to just sit back and judge them saying they should "just pull themselves up by their bootstraps".
I don't disagree with your point about entrenched problems that make escaping from poverty more difficult.
But how else can someone get out of poverty except by hard work, making the most of educational opportunities, etc. etc?
One thing is certain - with no effort to make a change, the path you're on will be the same.
True for weight management. True for financial management. True for life management.
People don't need to make excuses. They need to say Hell no! And DO something to make a positive change.
Iggy in our eyes it isn't. But if you are a member of an oppressed or exploited group, opening up a business or going to college could be seen as if the member thinks they are too good for their own people, or that they are becoming one of the enemy just for money.
My father's family was very poor and basically uneducated. His sister was very smart and longed to break out of being a poor farmer's daughter. She put herself through beauty school (it was one of the few options open to women during her time), worked for quite a few years before marrying (not the norm for the time or area), married a man much older who owned lots of acres. My father and grandfather often spoke of her as being uppity, looking down on her roots, or having "airs" of superiority. They couldn't see that she had a dream of a better life.
this isn't superficial stuff; it's intrinsic. you can't mess with intrinsic values without consequences.
please. success is defined by the person. if you believe you are successful, then you are. what you are talking about is how one culture evaluates the success of another. that's different and doesn't affect the value of the culture being judged.
Original Post by moonikins:
Iggy in our eyes it isn't. But if you are a member of an oppressed or exploited group, opening up a business or going to college could be seen as if the member thinks they are too good for their own people, or that they are becoming one of the enemy just for money.
My father's family was very poor and basically uneducated. His sister was very smart and longed to break out of being a poor farmer's daughter. She put herself through beauty school (it was one of the few options open to women during her time), worked for quite a few years before marrying (not the norm for the time or area), married a man much older who owned lots of acres. My father and grandfather often spoke of her as being uppity, looking down on her roots, or having "airs" of superiority. They couldn't see that she had a dream of a better life.
That's called ghetto mentality. It's a product of jealousy.
Iggy & Nomo, I'm not disagreeing with either of you. I am all for personal responsiblity. I've had to change many things in my life. I've had to overcome obstacles.
What I'm really trying to get across is that it is arrogant to judge those who can't do it, or have trouble starting. I also believe it is our responsibility to help those who do need help and to stop perpetuating the behavior that exploits or oppresses.
If someone believes something is impossible because of years/decades/centuries of their people being exploited, I believe it is arrogant for someone outside of the situation to just sit back and judge them saying they should "just pull themselves up by their bootstraps".
That makes no sense. Remembering that fair doesn't exist, if their is a path, regardless of the difficulty, to advance your interests and you don't take it, whose fault is that? Your own.
Iggy, it does make sense that it is arrogant for someone outside of the situation to sit back and judge. Judging others behavior is arrogant. Judging someone without walking in their shoes and really knowing their circumstances is arrogant.
Original Post by moonikins:
Iggy in our eyes it isn't. But if you are a member of an oppressed or exploited group, opening up a business or going to college could be seen as if the member thinks they are too good for their own people, or that they are becoming one of the enemy just for money.
My father's family was very poor and basically uneducated. His sister was very smart and longed to break out of being a poor farmer's daughter. She put herself through beauty school (it was one of the few options open to women during her time), worked for quite a few years before marrying (not the norm for the time or area), married a man much older who owned lots of acres. My father and grandfather often spoke of her as being uppity, looking down on her roots, or having "airs" of superiority. They couldn't see that she had a dream of a better life.
You don't have to be a minority or a colonized person to experience this. I experienced this and my family is considered "white".
After graduating and taking a job in Chicago, the biggest congratulations I got was my Mom saying "You always thought you were better than us, maybe now you can be happy."
moonikins,
I don't feel like I'm judging native americans. I feel like I'm sticking up for their competence, intelligence, and contributions to our society.
*blink*
Original Post by moonikins:
Iggy & Nomo, I'm not disagreeing with either of you. I am all for personal responsiblity. I've had to change many things in my life. I've had to overcome obstacles.
What I'm really trying to get across is that it is arrogant to judge those who can't do it, or have trouble starting. I also believe it is our responsibility to help those who do need help and to stop perpetuating the behavior that exploits or oppresses.
If someone believes something is impossible because of years/decades/centuries of their people being exploited, I believe it is arrogant for someone outside of the situation to just sit back and judge them saying they should "just pull themselves up by their bootstraps".
That makes no sense. Remembering that fair doesn't exist, if their is a path, regardless of the difficulty, to advance your interests and you don't take it, whose fault is that? Your own.Iggy, it does make sense that it is arrogant for someone outside of the situation to sit back and judge. Judging others behavior is arrogant. Judging someone without walking in their shoes and really knowing their circumstances is arrogant.
Oh... so you would say that it's unfair to judge David Duke, Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler because it would be arrogant of you unless you've walked in their shoes and really know their circumstances.
Gotcha.
No one is saying 'pull yourself up' and making a judgement if they don't. we're saying that the opportunity exists, now more than ever, to maintain strong cultural ties and still excel in the mainstream economy that surrounds them.
Iggy, these were white people of German heritage who lived in central Illinois. The ghetto didn't exist for them. This occurred prior to WWII.
Was jealousy a part of it? Yes. Is it as simple as just being jealous? No. Was my aunt made to feel like an outcast? Yes. Was she leaving her culture? Yes. Was she given any kind of support from her family? No, not really. Did they still love her? Yes. Were they proud of her? Yes.
You asked for an explanation as to how getting an education and a job equates to turning your back on your culture. I gave you a specific example that I witnessed in my family. You then just discounted it with a label. You made it seem as if her experience wasn't valid.
i'm not going to continue this conversation, though. it's too draining.
I'm sorry that your aunt had to put up with ghetto mentality. But guess what, everyone will likely experience it at one point or another, be it from co-workers or family and friends.
If you start to get for yourself something that someone near you wants for themselves, but have yet to achieve they may try to drag you down or otherwise slander you. It's because you've proved that what they want can be done by them, but they haven't done it. Jealousy.
edit: thankfully not all people are like that, but the ones that are... well, they're sure noticeable.
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