What is the American Stereotype?

So these kids came over from france and visited our french class. They said the typical american stereotype is that Americans are all very very fat.

If you aren't in the U.S, what do you think of when you here 'American?'

Original Post by moonikins:

1) Well Iggy, I knew you'd come up with a valid reason to Godwin.

2) Anyway, my whole point was that when someone makes a statement that other people should "just get over it", should "just pull themselves up by their bootstraps", etc. that the person making this statement is in essence judging those other people and finding them inferior. In other words, the statement maker is making themselves feel superior because they aren't in said situation.

This is not helpful, it is unproductive and it is more a reflection on the person making the statement as being insensitive in the very least.

3) It would be more helpful and more productive to help break the barriers for the oppressed/exploited than just telling them to pull themselves up and feeling superior to them.

4) Another point I was trying to make that seemed to escape you was that people who are breaking away from an entrenced situation are often ostracized socially and/or personally from their families. Jealousy is involved, but so is fear.

1) You're judging me... and it's hurting my feelings.

2) Did you not read the part of my post where I stated a society should work to eliminate the effect of obstacles like growing up poor? Nobody said "just get over it" you just characterized it that way. Feel free to go back and look if you don't believe me. That being said, adversity is not a good reason to not at least try to move forward along a difficult path from even the most difficult circumstances if you want something better.

3) See #2. I agree society needs to work to make the paths more equitable, but again it's not a valid reason for inaction on the part of the individual.

4) I agree that everyone's afraid of change and to change. I'm still not getting your point.

Anyone who is less successful than I am is lazy, and anyone who is more sucessful than I am is a cheating corrupt bastard.

end of discussion, period.

Original Post by hooligan:

Anyone who is less successful than I am is lazy, and anyone who is more sucessful than I am is a cheating corrupt bastard.

end of discussion, period.

 Where does Bill Belichick fall on this spectrum?

Beel Beellicheek ,  He,  is Saavvy!

LOL.

*hops onto the hijacked thread*

*enjoys the ride*

Moonikins, I have to respectfully disagree.

I think it's our job, as a society, to put the opportunities out there. Opportunities for everyone to advance, to find success as they define it. Whether it be material wealth or family or whatever.

It's up to the individual to take it.

Life isn't easy and it's not fair and I don't think it matters who you are, but at some point in time, you have to fight for the things you want. I won't say that situations don't exist that make it hard for people to move forward, to find happiness and success, but... the choice is still yours and yours alone. No one else can do it for you.

Original Post by hooligan:

Anyone who is less successful than I am is lazy, and anyone who is more sucessful than I am is a cheating corrupt bastard.

end of discussion, period.

so I guess that makes the guy standing at the freeway entrance with a sign reading:

"family kidnapped by ninjas, need $4 for karate lessons"

is a cheating corrupt bastard.

Original Post by ignayshus:

Original Post by hooligan:

Anyone who is less successful than I am is lazy, and anyone who is more sucessful than I am is a cheating corrupt bastard.

end of discussion, period.

so I guess that makes the guy standing at the freeway entrance with a sign reading:

"family kidnapped by ninjas, need $4 for karate lessons"

is a cheating corrupt bastard.

Definitely. Especially because ninjas don't kidnap families unless those families have clearly dishonored the ninja. Which doesn't happen an awful lot, except for in the movies.

Iggy & Nomo,

I never once said that it wasn't the individual's responsibility to work at improving their own situation. I said I am all for taking responsibility. I was trying to point out it can be hard and it can seem impossible. I gave an example of how a culture or family can even impede an individual trying to better themselves.

Iggy,

I did not mean to imply that you used the words "just get over it". Those words were uttered by someone else. I used the words "just get over it" and "just pull themselves up by their bootstraps" together because they are similar statements, they are not exactly the same, just similar in meaning and intention (to me at least).

I also was not judging you for Godwining. I predicted you would come up with a valid reason to Godwin to myself, then you did it, then I let you know you did it (in my opinion).

I don't believe in the slightest that I hurt your feelings.   (this is an assumption on my part) I'm not sure anyone could hurt your feelings.   (this is kind of a judgment and kind of a question on my part)   I'm not sure you actually have any feelings to hurt. (now this is a judgment) 

Original Post by moonikins:

Iggy & Nomo,

I never once said that it wasn't the individual's responsibility to work at improving their own situation. I said I am all for taking responsibility. I was trying to point out it can be hard and it can seem impossible. I gave an example of how a culture or family can even impede an individual trying to better themselves.

Iggy,

I did not mean to imply that you used the words "just get over it". Those words were uttered by someone else. I used the words "just get over it" and "just pull themselves up by their bootstraps" together because they are similar statements, they are not exactly the same, just similar in meaning and intention (to me at least).

I also was not judging you for Godwining. I predicted you would come up with a valid reason to Godwin to myself, then you did it, then I let you know you did it (in my opinion).

I don't believe in the slightest that I hurt your feelings.   (this is an assumption on my part) I'm not sure anyone could hurt your feelings.   (this is kind of a judgment and kind of a question on my part)   I'm not sure you actually have any feelings to hurt. (now this is a judgment) 

 ouch.  I'm actually hurt FOR him.

But isn't that a form of patronization, mooni? Aren't you negating the individual's ability to rise above their circumstances by immediately jumping to the conclusion that if it seems impossible then there is no choice?

Then I guess the question begs, what then? What if it does seem impossible? What if through no fault of their own, a person is forced to remain in poverty?

The society is responsible for offering opportunities, making amends for past oppression and smoothing the way for climbing out of poverty. That's what we've tried to do in this country. What else can we do?

I wasn't trying to imply I was negating the individual's responsibility or capability of overcoming something. I wasn't trying to imply that if it seems impossible there is no choice. What I'm trying or was trying to point out is it can be hard and it can seem and feel impossible.

I am living proof of someone breaking a cycle. I am living proof that what seems and feels impossible can be done. One of the things that held me back and made it more difficult were the feelings of isolation. When I would hear someone say something like "just pull yourself up" all the while ignoring the difficulties I was facing just made it that much harder.

I think by recognizing others' difficulties and trying to see their position from their point of view is far more helpful than just pointing out someone's responsibility to "just do it".

I was fortunate to have a couple of people come along at critical times and empathize with me. They showed me how to overcome the emotional aspect of it. It made all the difference in the world.

Original Post by moonikins:

Iggy & Nomo,

I never once said that it wasn't the individual's responsibility to work at improving their own situation. I said I am all for taking responsibility. I was trying to point out it can be hard and it can seem impossible. I gave an example of how a culture or family can even impede an individual trying to better themselves.

Iggy,

I did not mean to imply that you used the words "just get over it". Those words were uttered by someone else. I used the words "just get over it" and "just pull themselves up by their bootstraps" together because they are similar statements, they are not exactly the same, just similar in meaning and intention (to me at least).

I also was not judging you for Godwining. I predicted you would come up with a valid reason to Godwin to myself, then you did it, then I let you know you did it (in my opinion).

I don't believe in the slightest that I hurt your feelings. (this is an assumption on my part) I'm not sure anyone could hurt your feelings. (this is kind of a judgment and kind of a question on my part) I'm not sure you actually have any feelings to hurt. (now this is a judgment)

Temper, temper... no need get personal. Breath in, breath out. Relax and THEN respond.

You're right to a degree; only people who's opinions of me matter to me could ever hurt my feelings. That's not a slight, it's just you're neither family nor a close friend, simply put you don't know me as evidenced by your post. I'm certainly not going to get bent out of shape, because you don't like having your opinion questioned and respond in the manner you chose.

Of course if you'd like to broach the subject of relativism with respect to how I cannot speak about something because I've not experienced it, I'd be happy to oblige. So far you've dodged it, unintentionally I'm sure, however I've already given you five examples of how that doesn't fly, but I suppose we could keep going around in circles if you wish.

If not, no worries, the world's not going to end because you're a relativist or I'm not.

edit: Just read your last post. Nobody's saying people don't need help and support. Nobody's saying that it will be easy. Nobody's saying society shouldn't try to help. And nobody's saying that it's not okay to be afraid or that you weren't dealt a crappy hand.

What we're saying is that ultimately, nobody can improve anybody's life for them. Society can lay the groundwork, but it can't make people walk the paths. That's up to the individual.

And in the absence of adequate assistance, ultimately it's up to the individual to make up the difference, because they're the one that has to live with the consequences of action or inaction.

It's not meant to be mean. It's meant to empower.

I get it, mooni. It was your decision to call people judgemental that threw a monkey wrench in things, because no one was saying 'just do it' without considering the plight of the indigeneous peoples of North America.

Can I ever completely understand what they've been through? No. Can I look at what has been done and what is being done and make an assesment about whether or not the treatment of Native Americans has improved? Yes, I think I can. That is not to imply that I am judging anything other than my government's actions.

Now Iggy, who's calling who names? Maybe you should watch your temper.

For the record I was not trying to make a point that noone can talk about a subject if they haven't experienced it. This is why I intentionally ignored your posts regarding this issue. It wasn't the point I was trying to make.  I wouldn't even try to argue this point, because I don't believe it to be true.

I don't completely understand how you got that from my posts.  For clarity, I understand a little how my posts could be construed to mean that, but not completely.

 

I disagree with hk to a certain extent about whether we all judge.

One can observe and seldom judge.

You can't help but observe what is in front of you.   But you choose to assign a value or judgment about it.

For example, if you have your eyesight and you and I enter the same well lit room, you can't help but notice that I am overweight.

Whether you then think to yourself:
ugh! what a lazy fat pig! i hate to even be in the same room with her - she better not start eating fritos!
OR
omg! the most beautiful woman i have ever laid eyes on! i hope she'll talk to me! she is a goddess!

neither of those reactions is based on knowing me - because if you knew me, you'd know that I don't eat junk food (or corn products at all) and you'd know that I'm friendly and will talk to anyone who speaks to me (preferably in english - but i'll give it a go if it's in some other language), and you'd know i'm the opposite of lazy

When you don't judge, you just observe and don't draw any conclusions from the observation.  Whatever the truth is will be revealed to you when you need to know it.

:)

Okay, my bad. I'll take you at your word. Relativism by the way isn't an ugly word. It's a school of thought that has applications in some areas, but is incorrectly applied (imho and by other school's of thought) to far too many arguments. Some would say it's always wrong (at the very least from an ontological argument) but then the world isn't black and white, and what works on paper doesn't always play out in life.

For what it's worth, if you find yourself getting mad at something someone posted on the internet sit back, remind yourself that contrary to popular wisdom, the internet is NOT serious business, smile at the trivial nature of it and take a nice walk.

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

I disagree with hk to a certain extent about whether we all judge.

One can observe and seldom judge.

You can't help but observe what is in front of you. But you choose to assign a value or judgment about it.

For example, if you have your eyesight and you and I enter the same well lit room, you can't help but notice that I am overweight.

Whether you then think to yourself:
ugh! what a lazy fat pig! i hate to even be in the same room with her - she better not start eating fritos!
OR
omg! the most beautiful woman i have ever laid eyes on! i hope she'll talk to me! she is a goddess!

neither of those reactions is based on knowing me - because if you knew me, you'd know that I don't eat junk food (or corn products at all) and you'd know that I'm friendly and will talk to anyone who speaks to me (preferably in english - but i'll give it a go if it's in some other language), and you'd know i'm the opposite of lazy

When you don't judge, you just observe and don't draw any conclusions from the observation. Whatever the truth is will be revealed to you when you need to know it.

:)

That doesn't apply 100% of the time. I can give you a ton of examples right now where judging is far better than observing without drawing conclusions :)

edit: of course any place whether making a judgment or not doesn't affect you it's certainly a good choice.

no, that's why I didn't say 'never judge'

when you think that someone is about to cause you harm (emotionally, physically, financially) it's better to play it safe and make a self-preserving judgment

but how often are you in that kind of situation?

for me, it is rare

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

no, that's why I didn't say 'never judge'

when you think that someone is about to cause you harm (emotionally, physically, financially) it's better to play it safe and make a self-preserving judgment

but how often are you in that kind of situation?

for me, it is rare

emotional or physical who knows, financially all the damn time.

edit for 300:

THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!