20/20-- April 10

Ok yes, sensationalism journalism at its.. best?  But it has had me in tears all night.  Talking about  gun control in terms of the real world: if you are armed, how capable are you of defending yourself?  children accidentally shooting friends.  a small little black boy with... such high aspirations and I believe the silver tongue to get him there.  I mean I know these shows are designed to make you cry or angry or tug at your heart stings... but this really got to me.

With the shootings lately, its obvious how despondent many of us are.

Did you see the show?  Did you think it was blatant propaganda (I agree with it and I thought it was)?  How do you feel about gun control-- beginning with licensing, through training, and then restriction....   And last, if you watched, did you cry?

I think that people should be alowed to have weapons to defend themselves, but that they should be registered, it should not be as easy to get guns as they showed in the report, it was scary to see how easy it was to buy a whole bunch of deadly weapons without any questions asked.

Look at the statistics for gun violence firearm deaths (edited to clarify meaning) state by state HERE

Notice that Washington, DC is highest by far.  That's why the local government was fighting so hard to get guns off the street using new laws.

Then run your eyes down the list.  The states at the top of the list are also the ones where there is less regulation of guns.  The ones at the bottom of the list are the ones with tighter regulation.

Hawaii is at the lowest end of the list  gun laws in Hawaii

Texas is at the top of the list, behind DC.  Do you know about gun laws in Texas?  Take a quiz.  Hint:  There are none.

As far as I'm concerned, that speaks for itself. 

Original Post by lysistrata:

The answer to guns....is take them away.

I LOVE the idea of a country where the government has all the guns and the people have none!  It sounds like ... North Korea!

 No dear, it sounds like England

ah gun control

-get rid of them all, gun-related cime will drop...

-protect the second ammendment, gun ownership is our right...

-not enough regulation...

-too much regulation...

This is an issue that we will continue to run in circles with.  I can see the legitimacy of both sides of the argument, but having grown up hunting and owning guns, I lean more towards the "protect the second amendment" group.  Because that's the way I was raised, and I hate how we slowly change and manipulate the basic rights that our fore fathers endowed upon us.  Granted its a different day and age now, then it was back then.  But that doesn't change my personal opinion.

Unfortunately my opininon doesn't matter.  My say in the matter is left to a select group of men and women that represent the moral majority of us.  So I try not to argue this issue that much.

Original Post by loriklorik:

The answer to guns....is take them away.

Its just a fact that in other countries where guns are illegal, the gun related crimes are much much lower.

But in many of those countries violent crime as actually increased when guns were banned.

You cant just make a law for guns to be illegal and suddenly expect the problem to be fixed....this issue is much bigger than that.

It has to do with the legal system and societies views in general. Americans want to be "free"....in every way....including being free to commit crimes if they want. We dont want government taking away our ability to commit crimes, because then somehow we arent free anymore. And that leaves us where we are, where a certain percentage of the population chooses to exercise that "freedom" and act out against others (or break some other laws endangering society in general).

But as for guns. We need to slowly move away from guns and change societies attitudes towards it (its not going to happen overnight). We need more strict laws ...slowly squeezing out the access to weapons and the number of them in the country (along with higher punishments and regulations on how to keep them /license them). Eventually we could get to a point where they are VERY controlled and the crimes with guns will be tiny (like Japan).

Do you really want society to be the same in 100 years? 200 years? Do you really want society to always be armed / killing eachother? As long as guns are a part of our "right"....its a fact that we will continue to see deaths from it....i personally would like to see that "need" vanish from society (again, like japan).

Original Post by clairelaine:

Original Post by lysistrata:

The answer to guns....is take them away.

I LOVE the idea of a country where the government has all the guns and the people have none!  It sounds like ... North Korea!

 No dear, it sounds like England

That's right, England, where you can go to prison for life for defending your home and where you don't have the right to say that McDonald's sucks.

Thanks, but I prefer America stays America.

Original Post by loriklorik:

You cant just make a law for guns to be illegal and suddenly expect the problem to be fixed....this issue is much bigger than that.

It has to do with the legal system and societies views in general. Americans want to be "free"....in every way....including being free to commit crimes if they want. We dont want government taking away our ability to commit crimes, because then somehow we arent free anymore. And that leaves us where we are, where a certain percentage of the population chooses to exercise that "freedom" and act out against others (or break some other laws endangering society in general).

But as for guns. We need to slowly move away from guns and change societies attitudes towards it (its not going to happen overnight). We need more strict laws ...slowly squeezing out the access to weapons and the number of them in the country (along with higher punishments and regulations on how to keep them /license them). Eventually we could get to a point where they are VERY controlled and the crimes with guns will be tiny (like Japan).

Do you really want society to be the same in 100 years? 200 years? Do you really want society to always be armed / killing eachother? As long as guns are a part of our "right"....its a fact that we will continue to see deaths from it....i personally would like to see that "need" vanish from society (again, like japan).

lorik, when society shows me that it's willing to play nice so that I don't need to protect myself, then I won't protect myself.  But I'm afraid that place is called Utopia.  Violence exists in every society.  I don't see that changing in 100 or 200 years.  All that changes is whether you're an easy target.

Original Post by lysistrata:

Original Post by loriklorik:

You cant just make a law for guns to be illegal and suddenly expect the problem to be fixed....this issue is much bigger than that.

It has to do with the legal system and societies views in general. Americans want to be "free"....in every way....including being free to commit crimes if they want. We dont want government taking away our ability to commit crimes, because then somehow we arent free anymore. And that leaves us where we are, where a certain percentage of the population chooses to exercise that "freedom" and act out against others (or break some other laws endangering society in general).

But as for guns. We need to slowly move away from guns and change societies attitudes towards it (its not going to happen overnight). We need more strict laws ...slowly squeezing out the access to weapons and the number of them in the country (along with higher punishments and regulations on how to keep them /license them). Eventually we could get to a point where they are VERY controlled and the crimes with guns will be tiny (like Japan).

Do you really want society to be the same in 100 years? 200 years? Do you really want society to always be armed / killing eachother? As long as guns are a part of our "right"....its a fact that we will continue to see deaths from it....i personally would like to see that "need" vanish from society (again, like japan).

lorik, when society shows me that it's willing to play nice so that I don't need to protect myself, then I won't protect myself.  But I'm afraid that place is called Utopia.  Violence exists in every society.  I don't see that changing in 100 or 200 years.  All that changes is whether you're an easy target.

 Lol its not a case of you against society....you ARE society. YOU have the guns...YOU arent giving them up.... YOU are keeping the guns in society. You are part of the problem......along with the millions others who feel the same way.

Look at Japan....their armed crime (and crime in general) is amazingly low. Things are possible. Just not possible when everyone has the attitude that everyone ELSE should do something except for them.

Americans feel that everyone "else" should follow the law, but when it comes to them....they should have the option to do whatever they feel like (because OBVIOUSLY they know what they are doing). Same with driving, guns, everything....

Basically, things wont get better until people decide to give up the "freedom" to commit crimes.....

Original Post by clairelaine:

Look at the statistics for gun violence state by state HERE

Notice that Washington, DC is highest by far.  That's why the local government was fighting so hard to get guns off the street using new laws.

Then run your eyes down the list.  The states at the top of the list are also the ones where there is less regulation of guns.  The ones at the bottom of the list are the ones with tighter regulation.

Hawaii is at the lowest end of the list  gun laws in Hawaii

Texas is at the top of the list, behind DC.  Do you know about gun laws in Texas?  Take a quiz.  Hint:  There are none.

As far as I'm concerned, that speaks for itself. 

Check the definition.  Your statistics are misleading.

Causes of death attributable to firearm mortality include ICD-10 Codes W32-W34, Accidental discharge of firearm; Codes X72-X74, Intentional self-harm by firearm; X93-X95, Assault by firearm; Y22-Y24, Firearm discharge, undetermined intent; and Y35, Legal intervention involving firearm discharge. Deaths from injury by firearms exclude deaths due to explosives and other causes indirectly related to firearms.

More than 30,000 people killed themselves in 2001.  More than half of them used a firearm.  Suicide is the 11th highest cause of death in America. Sorry, that's a health problem, not a gun problem.

Violent crime rates are a much better indicator of whether people are defenseless. Washington DC, which you mentioned before, has one of the most stringent weapons bans in the US and its violent crime rate is 2.5 times the US average.  Bozeman, Montana, on the other hand, where every house has a rifle, has less than half of the national average.

Original Post by loriklorik:

Original Post by lysistrata:

Original Post by loriklorik:

You cant just make a law for guns to be illegal and suddenly expect the problem to be fixed....this issue is much bigger than that.

It has to do with the legal system and societies views in general. Americans want to be "free"....in every way....including being free to commit crimes if they want. We dont want government taking away our ability to commit crimes, because then somehow we arent free anymore. And that leaves us where we are, where a certain percentage of the population chooses to exercise that "freedom" and act out against others (or break some other laws endangering society in general).

But as for guns. We need to slowly move away from guns and change societies attitudes towards it (its not going to happen overnight). We need more strict laws ...slowly squeezing out the access to weapons and the number of them in the country (along with higher punishments and regulations on how to keep them /license them). Eventually we could get to a point where they are VERY controlled and the crimes with guns will be tiny (like Japan).

Do you really want society to be the same in 100 years? 200 years? Do you really want society to always be armed / killing eachother? As long as guns are a part of our "right"....its a fact that we will continue to see deaths from it....i personally would like to see that "need" vanish from society (again, like japan).

lorik, when society shows me that it's willing to play nice so that I don't need to protect myself, then I won't protect myself.  But I'm afraid that place is called Utopia.  Violence exists in every society.  I don't see that changing in 100 or 200 years.  All that changes is whether you're an easy target.

 Lol its not a case of you against society....you ARE society. YOU have the guns...YOU arent giving them up.... YOU are keeping the guns in society. You are part of the problem......along with the millions others who feel the same way.

Look at Japan....their armed crime (and crime in general) is amazingly low. Things are possible. Just not possible when everyone has the attitude that everyone ELSE should do something except for them.

Americans feel that everyone "else" should follow the law, but when it comes to them....they should have the option to do whatever they feel like (because OBVIOUSLY they know what they are doing). Same with driving, guns, everything....

Basically, things wont get better until people decide to give up the "freedom" to commit crimes.....

As is their individual liberty.  Their suicide rate, on the other hand, is one of the highest of all developed nations.

Speak for yourself.  I follow all the laws of owning and carrying a gun.

I am only part of the problem for some punk who uses violence against me.

Original Post by lysistrata:

Original Post by clairelaine:

Look at the statistics for gun violence state by state HERE

Notice that Washington, DC is highest by far.  That's why the local government was fighting so hard to get guns off the street using new laws.

Then run your eyes down the list.  The states at the top of the list are also the ones where there is less regulation of guns.  The ones at the bottom of the list are the ones with tighter regulation.

Hawaii is at the lowest end of the list  gun laws in Hawaii

Texas is at the top of the list, behind DC.  Do you know about gun laws in Texas?  Take a quiz.  Hint:  There are none.

As far as I'm concerned, that speaks for itself. 

Check the definition.  Your statistics are misleading.

Causes of death attributable to firearm mortality include ICD-10 Codes W32-W34, Accidental discharge of firearm; Codes X72-X74, Intentional self-harm by firearm; X93-X95, Assault by firearm; Y22-Y24, Firearm discharge, undetermined intent; and Y35, Legal intervention involving firearm discharge. Deaths from injury by firearms exclude deaths due to explosives and other causes indirectly related to firearms.

More than 30,000 people killed themselves in 2001.  More than half of them used a firearm.  Suicide is the 11th highest cause of death in America. Sorry, that's a health problem, not a gun problem.

Violent crime rates are a much better indicator of whether people are defenseless. Washington DC, which you mentioned before, has one of the most stringent weapons bans in the US and its violent crime rate is 2.5 times the US average.  Bozeman, Montana, on the other hand, where every house has a rifle, has less than half of the national average.

 Fine.  I'll go back and correct my semantics to say firearm deaths. PS:  They are not MY statistics.  I didn't make them up.  Take them any way you like but it won't do any good because your mind is set like concrete on the one idea and you just can't hear common sense.

How many people are in Bozeman, MT?  How many people are in DC? 

Original Post by clairelaine:

Original Post by lysistrata:

Original Post by clairelaine:

Look at the statistics for gun violence state by state HERE

Notice that Washington, DC is highest by far.  That's why the local government was fighting so hard to get guns off the street using new laws.

Then run your eyes down the list.  The states at the top of the list are also the ones where there is less regulation of guns.  The ones at the bottom of the list are the ones with tighter regulation.

Hawaii is at the lowest end of the list  gun laws in Hawaii

Texas is at the top of the list, behind DC.  Do you know about gun laws in Texas?  Take a quiz.  Hint:  There are none.

As far as I'm concerned, that speaks for itself. 

Check the definition.  Your statistics are misleading.

Causes of death attributable to firearm mortality include ICD-10 Codes W32-W34, Accidental discharge of firearm; Codes X72-X74, Intentional self-harm by firearm; X93-X95, Assault by firearm; Y22-Y24, Firearm discharge, undetermined intent; and Y35, Legal intervention involving firearm discharge. Deaths from injury by firearms exclude deaths due to explosives and other causes indirectly related to firearms.

More than 30,000 people killed themselves in 2001.  More than half of them used a firearm.  Suicide is the 11th highest cause of death in America. Sorry, that's a health problem, not a gun problem.

Violent crime rates are a much better indicator of whether people are defenseless. Washington DC, which you mentioned before, has one of the most stringent weapons bans in the US and its violent crime rate is 2.5 times the US average.  Bozeman, Montana, on the other hand, where every house has a rifle, has less than half of the national average.

 Fine.  I'll go back and correct my semantics to say firearm deaths. PS:  They are not MY statistics.  I didn't make them up.  Take them any way you like but it won't do any good because your mind is set like concrete on the one idea and you just can't hear common sense.

How many people are in Bozeman, MT?  How many people are in DC? 

Crime statistics are proportionate to the population, clairelaine.

And the problem is definitely conceptual, not semantic.  If you think that guns should be banned because people use them to commit suicide, that's all right; but don't use suicide-based statistics to suggest that guns make the streets dangerous.