Assisted Chin/Pull Up Machine

Useless?  A good starting point?

Depends on who you ask - Charles Poliquin thinks the carryover to unassisted chinups is too small to make it useful, but both Leigh Peele and Krista use it as part of their chinup progressions. I think that they're both right, kinda - if you're within a few pounds of assist to be able to do a full chinup on your own you're better off just using negatives for a little while, but if you need to cancel out half your bodyweight to do just one rep you're definitely better off using the assist.

i was using the pullup assist machine for months, seriously like seven months, and made so little progress.  i switched to doing negatives every day about three weeks ago, and i've made ridiculous advances.  i expect to be able to do a real, from-hang-position pullup any day now. 

i'm doing an upper body focused program, which i'm sure helps.  i'm just saying that i think the negatives are a major contributing factor (and that the pullup machine would have done diddly).

My experience was similar to caloriecountingme's. I used the assist for the better part of a year and made very little progress. (I was lifting about half my own bodyweight). During that time I may not have been eating enough to build muscle, so I don't know if I can blame the machine. But when I decided to get serious about pullups and started doing negatives instead of assists, I got to my first pullup within about 2 months.

Then I took a break for a year or two, and just recently my husband decided to install a pullup bar in our kitchen doorway. I was surprised that I could still do a pullup, and even more surprised that after a few weeks of casual whenever-I-walk-by singles, I gained the ability to do two in a row!! Three, here I come! :)

Just to clarify, are we talking about standard (palms away from you) pull-ups? I've noticed pull-up / chin-up used interchangeably so much, that I'm not sure which is the correct one any more.  I will be referring to the standard dead-hang pull-up shown here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pull-up_%28exerc ise%29

Back when I was heavier, stronger (ie I could lift more weight for more reps), and also higher % fat. I never did pull-ups, but I think I would have struggled with them because of my heavier body weight.  So, I think upper body strength to body weight is important.

Fast forward to Feb/March of this year, when I started doing chin-ups. I was the same weight as now (165-170), and did them at the end of my work-outs (bench, row, abs, legs then pull-ups) and I could eek out 4-5 per set.  Now I can regularly hit 3 reps of 8-10 each at the end of my work-out.  If you're just starting out, I suggest putting them at the beginning to be sure you're fresh when you try them.

Pull-ups are interesting, because for good form, there seem to be a lot of ancillary stabilizer muscles that you hit.  I've never used the pull-up machine, but it doesn't look like it will help you develop those muscles.  My first pull-ups were probably horribly ugly and I'm sure I swung too much and probably didn't go down far enough between reps.  However, consistently doing them and focusing on form has only helped those stabilizing muscles develop.

I like loxosceles idea of just trying one each work out.  Again, put it towards the beginning of your work-out to be sure you're fresh when you try.  The pull-up should be hitting muscles in your back, arms, shoulders, neck and I think even your chest.  If you can't do one, perhaps some other exercises to consider strengthening your upper body.

Lat-pull down or the bent-over-row to strengthen your lats more. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weight_t raining_exercises#Lats_.28lower_back.29

Also, an incline pull-up could be a good intermediate starting point for you.  See the level 1 program about 1/3 of the page down here (adjust hands accordingly for pull-up vs chin-up):

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/s ports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/ keep_your_chin_up

Good luck!

Demetrius

I guess I was referring to both -pullups ie palms away- and chinups palms toward.  Pullups definitely seem harder and at this point I seem very far away from accomplishing even one.  But I love a challenge!

One issue I have is that the pullup bar at the gym is too high for this shortie to actually reach.  So I have to come up with some alternative.  Any ideas?

Edit:  so I finally got that t-nation page to load.  Yes, I see what you mean about trying the incline.  I think I can try that.

I kind of had the feeling that the assisted jobbers were too easy, so it's good to have that feedback.

meganr, there are a few different pullup bars available at the gym i go to.  my preference is the bar on the stretch station, bec there are little things on the side bars that you can put your feet on to step up and then do the negative from there.  if that's not available, then i pull a bench over to a pullup bar and do a negative from there (i put it to the side, so that i'm not "swinging" a lot).

Original Post by meganr:

One issue I have is that the pullup bar at the gym is too high for this shortie to actually reach.  So I have to come up with some alternative.  Any ideas?

I jump.

That leaves me swinging back and forth sometimes, so I reach with my legs for whatever's nearby to stabilize. Then I hang down and start the pullup as usual.

(In my post I was mostly thinking of chinups, though training for chinups gave me the ability to do pullups too. Not at the same level though - the pullups are harder.)

a couple of things i forgot:  some smith machines at the gym have a pullup bar in front at the top.  so you can put the smith bar to the lowest setting and stand on that to grab the bar (that's what i did today).

also, i saw a guy stand on a 40lb dumbbell to get up to the pullup bar on the cable machine.  i might be too clumsy for that trick, but he handled it w/ease.

Next step up when you can do a few chins and pullups is to go for the towel pullups where you hang a towel over the bar and grip that. Lots easier to reach, but a lot harder to hold on to - I can only do a few before my grip gives out, and I'm now up to doing sets of 6 while holding a 16lbs dumbbell between my ankles :)

Original Post by melkor:

Next step up when you can do a few chins and pullups is to go for the towel pullups where you hang a towel over the bar and grip that. Lots easier to reach, but a lot harder to hold on to - I can only do a few before my grip gives out, and I'm now up to doing sets of 6 while holding a 16lbs dumbbell between my ankles :)

 Eeek!  I'll follow up again when I can do the first one!

Ok in fear of sounding like a total newbie haha...

Whats a negative?? i use the assisted maching quite often and i now have it on the lowest setting, i feel i need to move on to the "next level" but can't quite manage a full pullup alone yet...

I'm desperate to do one (well 10 actually)... As it's one my list of things im determind to do before christmas.... i can knock this one on the head it just leaves 2 things left on my list yay.   

A negative, loosly, is when you start at the normal "ending" position of the exercise and slowly and controllably move the weight (or your body) to the normal "starting" position.

For example, with a pull-up, you'd start in the Pulled up position (in the case of the standard pull-up, your chin above the bar and your upper chest touching.  You would then slowly and controllably lower yourself to the fully extended hanging position.  I don't think this can be done on the assistance machine.  You could get a trainer or friend to help you get back to the top after each negative or use a bench/stool to kick yourself up. 

I believe a true negative is defined as using weight that you'd be unable to lift normally and this requires a spotter.   In your case, you would be doing a true negative since you can't perform the pull-up in the "forward" direction. However, I first heard the term used (and I myself use it) for using any weight you can handle and focusing on a very slow, true to form, reverse rep.  If you don't have a spotter, this is better than nothing.

I'm sure someone else could explain this in the correct lifting jargon and talk about eccentric vs concentric movements.  I do not have the expertise to do this. 

Edit: OK, this doesn't specifically pertain to pull-ups but does discuss "Eccentric Training" (negatives) in more detail:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/s ports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/ accentuated_eccentric_training

assisted pull up machine works great for me, my shoulders and my back have made tons of progress so far, its def not useless, u just have to know how to use the machine

no one's saying that the assisted pullup machine doesn't work any muscles.  it obviously engages muscles.  but in the same way that the leg press is absolutely not going to prepare you, strength-wise, for a squat, neither is the assisted pullup machine going to prepare you, strength-wise, for a pullup.  everything helps, any back exercise will help (build muscle). 

but if you want to do a pullup, your best bet is to engage all of the muscles that are gonna get you up there, and do it in a way that mimics the pullup motion so that you train your muscle memory.  negatives allow you to do this bec you can handle more weight doing a negative (many ppl can lower themselves from the top position, even if they can't do a pullup).  use that assist machine, and you'll be using it for way too long (forever? maybe not quite that long...)

Good point, even doing assisted dips when my friend got used to doing those it was a big transition when he tryed doind regular dips

Warning:  brag ahead, thus this old post resurrection.

I did it.  A full pullup, all the way above the bar.  And made it to about eyebrow level on the second one.

And finished with two full chinups.

Next: Keep going till I can do five.

Original Post by meganr:

Warning:  brag ahead, thus this old post resurrection.

I did it.  A full pullup, all the way above the bar.  And made it to about eyebrow level on the second one.

And finished with two full chinups.

Next: Keep going till I can do five.

 Clap, clap!!!  congrats - good work!

congratulations, meganr.  what a big day.  it's so much easier when you can add actual pullups to your routine.

Hooray! That had to feel so triumphant!

Megan, congratulations!