Atkins and Calorie Counting

Hello everyone.  I've been reading up quite a bit on diet and nutrition in the last month, and was hoping someone on here might be able to elucidate a few things for me.   Now, Im not on the Atkins/low cab diet, but out of interest I've been reading alot about it, including Tom Venuto's website, which I've seen linked in several posts on CC.  Anyway, Venuto basically says in so many words that he's tried Atkins and low carb diets and while they do "work", they are essentially reduced calorie diets in disguise, nevermind ketosis and all that noise.  I found this point very interesting, and initially counter-intuitive.  Of course, Atkins and other low-carb diets appeal to so many precisely because there are no portion (or fat) restrictions.  On the other hand, there are several things I can think of that would support his claim:  1)cutting out carbs would instantly slash a ton of liquid "empty" calories.  I would guess that soda, beer, liquor, and (to a lesser extent) juice play a major role in many people's weight problems. 

2)I've read alot that fiber and protein are the most filling types of food, and with meat and vegetables being the most common Atkins meal, this could naturally lead to people overeating less often. 

3)Although foods like potatoes and pasta are not naturally high calorie, their common preparation often includes either deep frying, rich sauces, tons of cheese, oversalting, or any combination of the above.

So anyway, I was wondering people's opinion on this.  I know and appreciate that people on here are generally of the "no gimmick diet" school, but I also think that alot of people have probably tried Atkins in the past and can give some input.  Also, I know there have been a number of recent studies comparing low carb to conventional diets, but have there been any that count the calorie intake of these low-carb dieters?  Can any low-carb dieter really lose weight while taking in 3500 cals/day of mostly cheese and red meat????  Any references or links to reliable sources would be great. 

Just a limited, personal view.

I dumbly, in fact most profoundly stupidly, limited my carbs when I started. I lost and lost. I lost fat. I lost muscle. And then I hit a weird plateau where I was stuck (end of July being of August). I was visiting my sister and she said she could smell I was in ketosis. That woke me up, in a hurry.

I added carbs back in ASAP after that, pasta, breads I made. And I started dropping steady and adding muscle back. Now I try to keep balanced and I am just a lot happier.

I did a low carb diet and loved it.  It wasn't Atkins.  It was "The Type 2 Diabetes Diet Book"  It was low carb but also low fat and wasn't a free for all on high fat foods.  I lost 55 lbs and was able to maintain that for months until I quit smoking and quit doing what I should have.  I now just count calories after trying weight watchers for 9 months.  The quitting smoking caused me to gain 25 lbs back.  I have lost some of those in the last 18 months, but it has been harder to lose the lbs this second time around.  Not sure if its just my lack of motivation or what. 

 Even though I haven't lost weight in the last year - jus keep gaining and losing the same 5 lbs - I have lost pant sizes gone from a 14 last year at this time to a 10.  The other night I fit into a size 8 skirt.- I have very big legs and can't get into jeans in a size 8 but my waist is!  I have been able to lose the inches due to excercise plain and simple. 

My dr told me that any diet will work - its just you need to follow one and stick to it.  I didn't do atkins because my cholesterol was already high.  The Type 2 diabetes diet limited carbs but not as much as atkins and yes it was a low calorie diet too but after a few days I wasn't hungry.

If  you look at the studies claiming that "low carb" might work they mostly aren't very controlled.

Lots of the people who claim to be on low carb actually aren't.

Worse it seems the studies just ignore the people that have fallen totally off the wagon and quit.

There is also the fact much of what is lost is your bodies natural stores of glycogen and water. Stuff your body needs and will come back the minute you get off the low carb bit.

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/nutrition/ a/aa030601a.htm

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_1/the-t ruth-behind-the-atki.shtml

http://facilities.princeton.edu/Dining/_Nutri tion/the_athletes_kitchen3_04.htm

Low carb diets work for those that can handle feeling like a slug. Your body will deplete carbs which are needed for brain fucntion, thought etc. The body creates a synthetic carb called a ketone which is a bi product of consuming stored body fat. It works to drop weight, but for many people they are burnt in the late afternoon. I have used this when needing to blow off water and make weight for a powerlifting meet weigh in. Coffee helps if you go on this diet! Our program consisted of protein, cooked and raw vegetable only and it was no fun.Best of luck.
M

Ok, thank you for your replies, but maybe I wasn't clear in my original post, b/c nobody really addressed my question.  My question is: 

      Do Atkins and other low-carb diets really only work when there is a calorie defecit?  Has anyone on this forum ever tracked their cals while on a low-carb diet and consistently lost weight despite taking in relatively high cals?  And has anyone ever read an article or study addressing this point?

Depends on what  you mean by losing weight. You'll lose water. You'll most likely lose some muscle. So the scale will drop. 

Your restated question of:  do low carb diets work when your calorie deficient? Yes, All low calorie diets will make you lose weight. The problem is too low a diet can cause muscle deterioration. If all you eat is protein, you will slow muscle deterioration down, but a pure protein diet is hard on the liver,kidneys and intestines. You'll be shttn Bricks and will need a laxitive. Don't utulize this program. ON top of this, keytones are released and you will think slow, have foul breath. Eat tons of veggies, try to take in no less than 3/4ths a gram of protein per pound of body fat. Several of us discussed protein levels a few days ago on a thread. I hope this helps, Good luck with your diet and happy holidays.
M

Nate - here is a thread from someone who did Atkins just posted yesterday
http://www.calorie-count.com/forums/post/1990 6.html

Thanks DB for your link.  That is of course only 1 person, but it is what Im talking about.  With regard to the other replies, I AM NOT ON ATKINS NOR AM I PLANNING ON GOING ON ATKINS ANY TIME IN THE NEAR FUTURE.  My question was not whether you think people get balanced nutrients, it was whether low carb diets ONLY work when there is a calorie defecit.  Can anyone lose weight consistently, over a several month period, while taking in a substantial calorie surplus?  I cannot find any reliable information on this question despite my best efforts, and I think its a very obvious and important question wrt nutrition and weight loss.

The answer to your question is outlined in the link posted earlier - scroll down to "WHAT ACCOUNTS FOR THE WEIGHT LOSS IN KETOGENIC DIETS?" http://www.atkinsexposed.org/atkins/98/George _L_Blackburn,_M.D.,_Ph.D..htm

Apparently weight loss is mostly due to calorie deficit.

In the end it has to be a calorie deficit.  Weight lost in its most basic form is merely a game of math.  Taking in less energy then your putting out. 

The website also says:

"In 2001, the medical journal Obesity Research published "Popular Diets: A Scientific Review." Claiming to have reviewed every study ever done on low carb diets, they concluded, "In all cases, individuals on high-fat, low carbohydrate diets lose weight because they consume fewer calories."[99] Calories count--every time, all the time. "No magic ingredients, strange food combinations or pseudoscientific formulas will alter this metabolic fact."[100]"

http://www.atkinsexposed.org/atkins/15/Calori es_Count.htm

Edited to add: http://www.atkinsexposed.org/atkins/17/Low_Ca lorie_Diet_in_Disguise.htm

I want to know this too. I think the question is "does excess protein consumed turn into fat"? I don't think you can eat a lot of fat and protein and lose weight, but if you eat lean protein and veggies and the total calories does not give you a deficit, you can ask the question "what happens to excess protein." More online sources say it turns into fat than the opposite (I did a google search). But you can't always believe this stuff online. Might have to read a bio or medical book to really know. My dad is a doctor and he says excess protein is peed out (so he thinks low fat, low--not zero--carb diets work) but I'm not sure I believe him fully either.

  Thank you VERY much bunnigrrl for your reply and link, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.  If that's really the case, then all this talk of Ketosis and whatnot is just superfluous jive.  Who cares if you're in ketosis or not as long as you're running a calorie

deficit?

I've been on what some would call a low-carb diet for quite some time, the paleolithic diet. I've been on it since the end of july and have loss 50 pounds. That's 50 pounds starting from a wieight of 215. About 2/5 of my calories come from veggies and a few fruits, while the rest is protein. The fact is that I never feel sluggish anymore, but I use to. I use to never be able to sleep through the night without waking up at 3 or 4 and going back to sleep. I feel great, and a fact is that I think clearer now than I did before the diet. My diet has eliminated all grain and dairy products. I don;t eat anything that cannot be consumed raw, but I always eat my meat cook for obvious reasons.

i've been dieting all my life. There was one time when i succeed to lose and reach the healthy life style before start to eat simple carbs and mess my weight all the way back (around 14 kgs!) But yea, things that i learned is that we do need carbs (i never 100% give up carbs, even when i was skinny) But we need to manage how much carbs we eat and what kind of carbs are they :).  aS long as the carbs is good, then its not a big problem! (In my country most ppl are skinny, they eat rice 2-3 times a day!)

My mom lost 20 pounds just by eating nothing but carbs. She tried to restrict everything else. We went through a whole lotta bread for those few months. It was whole grain bread though, which she was smart enough to eat the healthier carbs, and save the less healthier carbs for desserts.

just a note about the excess protein thing,

i've heard from a few trainers and nutritionists that excess protein is stored as fat.  the body cant absorb more the 4-5 oz of protein at a time.     hence why bodybuilders, who want muscle, not fat,  usually eat 6 times a day so they can get in a large amount of protein  that will not be stored as fat.  4 oz of chicken here, one protein shake there etc.

natedaug-

I think your assumption that people on low carb diets lose weight due to lower calorie intake overall is pretty accurate.  I did atkins for awhile several years ago and found that often, there just wasn't food around that was "okay" for me to eat!  Which meant a lot of meals were replaced with atkins bars or whatever random food I could scrounge up (usually not a full meal).  The no-carbs thing also means soda, candy, cookies, cake, donuts, etc, etc are off limits, and these are exactly the foods that I don't eat now (or eat only in small amounts) that I am counting calories (and shedding weight).  Good interesting post!