Attention Christians - please give me your thoughts

We were discussing the 'other' books written but that were not included in the Bible. HUNDREDS of them.. all authenticated by being from the same time period.  Why are these ignored by Christians?  I would have thought that Christians would have been flocking to read them and include them in the 'big book'.  Is it because some contradict what the current book says? Is it because Mary's book insinuated that there was more between her and Jesus?

When I was a Christian and I found out about this I remembered being very excited and wanting to read them!  But no one else did.. it was hush hush and disregarded... part of the reason for my spiraling decent (or incline!) to Athiesm.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Edit: We started discussing this in the "Muslims voting for Obama calling him their savior? " thread

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It doesn't come across as fuzzy to me.

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by bobs9895:

But we are a Christian nation. So many, many of our historical documents refer to God. They reference the Judeo-Christian God - not Krishna, not Allah, not any other god...

Um, the judeo-christian god and the islamic god are one and the same.

Of course you are right. But I had hoped that based on the context of what I was saying that you would understand I was distinguishing between Judeo-Christianity and Islam.

My bad, as they say.

Original Post by trhawley:

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It doesn't come across as fuzzy to me.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.. - Congress (government) should stay out of religion. That is pretty straight forward.

I don't see where it says that religion should stay out of government though. Can you show me? Or can you show me any other historical document that says this? Anything that states religion and references to religion should be kept out of government?

Cause I can certainly show you many, many documents that do in fact have references to religion.

Original Post by bobs9895:

Original Post by moonikins:

No bobs, we are not a christian nation. The predominant religion is christian and has been christian. That does not make us a christian nation. LOL, sounds contradictory to me.  But I'm sure you know what you mean.

The constitution does not reference the christian god.  Yes, and???

The declaration of independence references the creator and nature's god and laws of nature. Yes, and???

 

You said our historical document referenced the christian god. Our founding documents do not.

It's not contradictory at all. Just because a country has a dominant religion does not imply that nation is that religion, which is what you imply when you say, "The US is a christian nation".

I think you cling to the notion we are a christian nation because it frightens you to say we are a nation with christians, jews, muslims, buddists, hindus, atheists, agnostics, pagans and everything in between.

Would you call the US a white nation? The majority of citizens are white. Do you see my point?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Our government can not adopt a state religion and therefore cannot impose this religion upon us.  It also cannot adopt any law prohibiting us from worshipping the religion of our choice.  This keeps religion serepate from government; therefore church and state remain separate.

Our Representatives are free to worship how they choose and they are free to allow their religion to influence their position on the issues but they are forbidden from adopting any laws that would prohibit us from worshiping as we choose.

Um, the judeo-christian god and the islamic god are one and the same.

Not true.

Original Post by tommywantwingy:

Um, the judeo-christian god and the islamic god are one and the same.

Not true.

 How so?

What am I doing in here?  I've got a party to go to!

Original Post by tommywantwingy:

Um, the judeo-christian god and the islamic god are one and the same.

Not true.

Actually they are. Abraham had a son Ishmael with his wife's concubine because his wife Sarai couldn't conceive. Then Sarai got pregnant and had Isaac. Isaac went on to found Judaism and Ishamael went on to found Islam. They both came from the same god.

Now this is a very short and simplified answer. The Islam god and the Judeo-Christian god are the same god. Their religions are different, but their god is the same. They give different names to their god, but they are the same.

Original Post by tommywantwingy:

Um, the judeo-christian god and the islamic god are one and the same.

Not true.

 And Jesus was a white guy.

Original Post by moonikins:

Original Post by bobs9895:

Original Post by moonikins:

No bobs, we are not a christian nation. The predominant religion is christian and has been christian. That does not make us a christian nation. LOL, sounds contradictory to me.  But I'm sure you know what you mean.

The constitution does not reference the christian god.  Yes, and???

The declaration of independence references the creator and nature's god and laws of nature. Yes, and???

 

You said our historical document referenced the christian god. Our founding documents do not.  Yes, they do.  Why can't you admit as much.  Again, it does NOT mean that our government is a theocracy.

It's not contradictory at all. Just because a country has a dominant religion does not imply that nation is that religion, which is what you imply when you say, "The US is a christian nation".  Yes, it does.  Just like Saudi Arabia, for example, is an Islam nation even though Christians live there and India is a Hindu nation even though Christians live there.  It is a generalization, not an absolute. 

I think you cling to the notion we are a christian nation because it frightens you to say we are a nation with christians, jews, muslims, buddists, hindus, atheists, agnostics, pagans and everything in between.  Excuse me, please dont pretend to assume anything frightens me.  What makes you think you can get into my head?  I would never presume any such thing about you or anyone else.

Would you call the US a white nation? The majority of citizens are white. Do you see my point?  Actually, I think there are more Hispanics now.  But either way, noI would not.

Original Post by trhawley:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Our government can not adopt a state religion and therefore cannot impose this religion upon us. Agreed. It also cannot adopt any law prohibiting us from worshipping the religion of our choice.  Agreed. This keeps religion serepate from government; No, it is keeping government separate from religion!  therefore church and state remain separate. Agreed.

Our Representatives are free to worship how they choose and they are free to allow their religion to influence their position on the issues but they are forbidden from adopting any laws that would prohibit us from worshiping as we choose. Agreed.

You said our historical document referenced the christian god. Our founding documents do not.  Yes, they do.  Why can't you admit as much.  Again, it does NOT mean that our government is a theocracy.

I gave you a link to the Declaration of Independence. Nowhere does it mention the christian god. It specifically calls out creator, nature's god and laws of nature, all of these words are found in the opening paragraph. In the closing paragraph you'll see supreme judge of the world and divine providence. Here is a link to the Constitution. No where does it mention god at all. These are our founding documents. Now you can construe these words to mean and only mean specifically the christian god, but all other religions could say they mean their god as well.

Thomas Jefferson wrothe the DOI. Did you know he was not chrisitan? Many of the founding fathers were not christian. Many of them considered themselves deists, or have been described as deists later by historians. They believed in a god, but did adhere to christianity. Did you know that Jefferson wrote his own version of the bible? It's called the Jefferson Bible. He took the bible and edited out all of the parts he considered hateful and disdainful. Jefferson wrote a number of letters that were particularly scathing in regards to religion. He despised religion.

Here is a quote from Jefferson specifically about the preamble regarding the mention of god: Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting 'Jesus Christ,' so that it would read 'A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;' the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. Autobiography, referring to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Here is a link that gives specific Jefferson quotes in regards to religion. Here are some quotes from that site. This site is fabulous. I hope you will check it out in its entirety.

Jefferson's religion is a little difficult to pin down. He apparently believed in a supreme being, although not one that resembles the Christian God. He believed in some form of life after death. But he rejected the Christian concept of the Trinity, the virgin birth, and belief in a Hell of eternal punishment. He never joined any religious denomination. His comments about Christianity were rather vitriolic at times.

 "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effects of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

It's not contradictory at all. Just because a country has a dominant religion does not imply that nation is that religion, which is what you imply when you say, "The US is a christian nation".  Yes, it does.  Just like Saudi Arabia, for example, is an Islam nation even though Christians live there and India is a Hindu nation even though Christians live there.  It is a generalization, not an absolute. 

I think you cling to the notion we are a christian nation because it frightens you to say we are a nation with christians, jews, muslims, buddists, hindus, atheists, agnostics, pagans and everything in between.  Excuse me, please dont pretend to assume anything frightens me.  What makes you think you can get into my head?  I would never presume any such thing about you or anyone else.

Would you call the US a white nation? The majority of citizens are white. Do you see my point?  Actually, I think there are more Hispanics now.  But either way, noI would not.

No, white people are still in the majority. I think it is somewhat hypocritical and disingenuous for you to call this a christian nation when you say you mean a generalization yet you don't call it a white nation if you truly mean it as a generalization. Only you know your reasons for doing so and I apologize if I offended you. You're right. I do not know what frightens you. I assumed something. Shame on me. I do know that many people who insist on calling this a christian nation do so to try to protect their own little world or belief that this nation is failing because we are "falling away" from their god.

many of your early intellectuals american transcendentalists.  i wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's where jefferson fits.

that's a belief system i might be able to get behind!

Original Post by moonikins:

You said our historical document referenced the christian god. Our founding documents do not.  Yes, they do.  Why can't you admit as much.  Again, it does NOT mean that our government is a theocracy.

I gave you a link to the Declaration of Independence. Nowhere does it mention the christian god. It specifically calls out creator, nature's god and laws of nature, all of these words are found in the opening paragraph. In the closing paragraph you'll see supreme judge of the world and divine providence. Here is a link to the Constitution. No where does it mention god at all. These are our founding documents. Now you can construe these words to mean and only mean specifically the christian god, but all other religions could say they mean their god as well.

Thomas Jefferson wrothe the DOI. Did you know he was not chrisitan? Many of the founding fathers were not christian. Many of them considered themselves deists, or have been described as deists later by historians. They believed in a god, but did adhere to christianity. Did you know that Jefferson wrote his own version of the bible? It's called the Jefferson Bible. He took the bible and edited out all of the parts he considered hateful and disdainful. Jefferson wrote a number of letters that were particularly scathing in regards to religion. He despised religion.

Here is a quote from Jefferson specifically about the preamble regarding the mention of god: Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting 'Jesus Christ,' so that it would read 'A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;' the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. Autobiography, referring to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Here is a link that gives specific Jefferson quotes in regards to religion. Here are some quotes from that site. This site is fabulous. I hope you will check it out in its entirety.

Jefferson's religion is a little difficult to pin down. He apparently believed in a supreme being, although not one that resembles the Christian God. He believed in some form of life after death. But he rejected the Christian concept of the Trinity, the virgin birth, and belief in a Hell of eternal punishment. He never joined any religious denomination. His comments about Christianity were rather vitriolic at times.

 "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effects of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

 

 Oh for crying out loud.  I'm obviously just talking to myself here.  Your response to me has very little to do with what I've been saying all along.

maybe you're not saying what you mean; maybe you're not saying what you think you're saying.  it seems to me that mooni's responses are totally appropriate.

No bobs, my response to you is in direct response to your assertions. You claim that our founding documents specifically call out the chrisitan god. I give you proof that they do not.

You said you could give me proof that our founding documents call out the christian god. Show me that proof.

Original Post by bobs9895:

Original Post by trhawley:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Our government can not adopt a state religion and therefore cannot impose this religion upon us. Agreed. It also cannot adopt any law prohibiting us from worshipping the religion of our choice.  Agreed. This keeps religion serepate from government; No, it is keeping government separate from religion!  therefore church and state remain separate. Agreed.

Our Representatives are free to worship how they choose and they are free to allow their religion to influence their position on the issues but they are forbidden from adopting any laws that would prohibit us from worshiping as we choose. Agreed.

 

 The point is, as you seem to agree, that the First Amendment requires government and religion to remain separate.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

maybe you're not saying what you mean; maybe you're not saying what you think you're saying.

Perhaps you are right.  I will try one more time.

Original Post by moonikins:

No bobs, my response to you is in direct response to your assertions. You claim that our founding documents specifically call out the chrisitan god. I give you proof that they do not.

You said you could give me proof that our founding documents call out the christian god. Show me that proof.

Ok, nobody is probably going to read this because I said I wasn’t going to respond anymore and there hasn’t been any comments the last couple of days, but today at work (It’s a slow day) I decided I would try to explain, in detail, the point I’ve been trying to make. As pgeorgian said, maybe I’m not saying what I mean. Unfortunately, what this means is that it will be long, nobody will probably read it all through anyway!

What originally started this debate is that I said this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, not on the Christian religion. Many historical documents from our founding fathers bear this out.

That does not mean that our founding fathers were all Christians. That does not mean that Christianity was - or is - our nation’s official religion. However, as a practical purpose, we are a Christian nation.

I whole-heartedly agree that our founding fathers did not want a theocratical government and that our nation should absolutely be run free from any religious institutions.

However, somewhere along the way what I said was somehow interpreted as just the opposite.

I was supposedly proven wrong by just two historical documents - “The Constitution of the United States of America” and the “Declaration of Independence”.

The Constitution does not mention God or any other type of similar reference. Because there is not mention of God, then this means that our nation was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles? I don’t think it proves that at all.

The Constitution is the law of the United States. To me, if anything can be construed at all, it is the one thing we all do agree on - that this country was not founded on the Christian religion (or any other religion for that matter) by not including any type of religious language.

As for the Declaration, it uses such terms as “Creator”, and “Nature’s God”, and “Judge of the World”, and “Divine Providence”. According to the argument on here, Thomas Jefferson and many of our founding fathers were Deists. As such, they are not referring to the Judeo-Christian God.

But let’s leave that for a moment and come back to it later.

Our Founding Fathers were Christians and Deists. More significantly, Deists with Christian values!

No doubt there were many Founding Fathers that were Deist or had Deist tendencies. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin were some of the most well known.

However, there were in fact many more Founding Fathers who were Christian. Some of the more notable included Roger Sherman, Benjamin Rush, Samuel Adams, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and Patrick Henry.

But let’s go back to Thomas Jefferson for a minute as he is the one most often mentioned when talking about how our Founding Fathers were not Christians, but Deists. Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Nor did he believe in the Holy Trinity, miracles, or the Resurrection. John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and George Washington shared those beliefs in varying degrees.

Thus, they were not Christians.

However, they did espouse many Christian beliefs, or said another way, many Judeo-Christian principles.

John Adams said, “I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God”, and;

“Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart”.

Benjamin Franklin said, “As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as be left them to us, the best the world ever saw, or is like to see”, and:

“He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world.”

And, Thomas Jefferson, who at time could be vitriolic towards Christianity said, “The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart”,

and who wrote in the front of his own personal Bible, “I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

Judeo-Christian Historical documents.

Those are just a few of many quotes from some of our Founding Fathers regarding their beliefs.

Speaking of the US Constitution, take a look at the constitutions of the thirteen original colonies (and later states). They all had references to the Judeo-Christian God. For example, just a few of the names He was referred to were “God”, “Almighty”, “Supreme Being”, “Creator”, and “Divine Providence”. Sound familiar? Go back and look at the Declaration of Independence.

Again, there are many historical documents such as letters, articles, speeches, legal documents, etc. etc. that all espouse these same Judeo-Christian principles. To get a comprehensive understanding of the philosophy and beliefs of our Founding Fathers, you must look at it all and take it all into account, not just the two documents of the DOI and Constitution.

For example, Political Science professors at the University of Houston, curious about who influenced the founders, gathered 15,000 quotes made by them. The effort took over ten years. They reduced the number to those that had a significant impact on the founding fathers and the result was 3,154 quotes. They determined that the Bible was quoted far more than any other source. Thirty-four percent of all quotes were from the Bible, and another 60% of the quotes were from men who were using the Bible to make their point.

What did our Founding Fathers themselves say about whether or not we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles?

Patrick Henry said, “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”

John Adams said, “The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity."

Samuel Adams said, at the Declaration of Independence was being signed, “We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come.

James Madison, Father of the US Constitution, said, “The future and success of America is not in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice, said, “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

What have more recent leaders said about us being a Christian nation?

Andrew Jackson said, "The Bible is the rock upon which this Republic stands."

Woodrow Wilson said, “America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness, which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scriptures.”

Harry Truman said, “The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul.”

In 1892, the Supreme Court wrote the decision of Church of Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892). The decision cites a number of examples that America was founded on Christian principles, and concludes, "this is a Christian nation."

I could go on longer and try to make my case stronger, but if I haven’t at least slightly made you consider my point of view, nothing more I say will matter.

For all I care totally disregard everything I’ve said and do your own research. If you’re so convinced you are right, then you shouldn’t be afraid to research more from the other point of view.

Finally,

there is nothing wrong or shameful to admit this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. That's good because we know that God gives rights to everyone, including non-Christian.