Bail Out the Banks and Insurance Companies. Not.
Well, this is my first journey into The Lounge...and yes, I read Molly's warnings, and no, I don't think I've violated them.
The "subprime" mortgage market has collapsed and too many foreclosures on overpriced real estate have caused banks, developers, individuals, investment banks, and the biggest insurance company in the world (?) to go broke. So the politicians in power (Democrats & Republicans, to you) decide we need to save these people from their own bad deicsions, and bail them out.
I say, no. Let's not.
I saw the bailouts compared to the S&L bailout during Clinton's administration ... biggest boondoggle yet. We are saddling ourselves and our children with bailing out investors, bankers, developers who knew (or should have known) what they were doing, and accepted the risk.
And they want us to turn our Social Security investments over to Wall Street, too. Forced to contribute but with no say in how it's managed. I think we revolted on some principle like that...was it more than 200 years ago? Do we never learn?
I can't help but believe that behind all these poor decisions and stupid risks looms something even larger: wealth was destroyed when the Twin Towers went down. Lots of human lives were lost and lots of records and valuables went down as well. This feels like an aftershock to me.
I mean, think about it, who could possibly think for one minute that grouping together bad loans made a good investment? huh? As a "stopgap" strategy, a way to prop up the economy with the "real estate bubble" to avoid living with the real economic damages we suffered? Yeah. Get enough time and enough subsidiary events between one disaster and another, and the voters will forget. They won't connect these dots.
It's the same reason we went to war. More as a distraction than anything else. Look we're doing something, and it's expensive. So forget about the past, OK? Forget about our earlier mistakes. Don't change the way we think and act, don't examine our values, just keep trying to distract ourselves from the truth in the world today. We're #1. Feel better now?
Wasn't there a time not too long ago (during the late 20's maybe) when the stock market started to crash and the government didn't do anything? What was the result of that?
And we don't have any social security investments, there never have been social security investments, it's a pay-as-you-go program.
Hey, my husband's business is going under since he can't compete in the construction industry since the illegal aliens working for nothing - thanks to the government for letting them in- do you think the gov't will give us 20 thousand to cover his debt?
seems to me the bail-outs are just a way to prolong the mass delusion that everything is okay (and let the dems take the hit when reality comes home).
Oh! This is fun.
floggingsully--I see you remember the Depression but you forgot The New Deal, and the Fair Deal, WPA, CCC, and WW2. Maybe you didn't hear that FDR and his military advisors knew Pearl Harbor would be attacked, and did nothing? Remind you of any recent events, say in 2001?
thmheh--I'm truly sorry about your husband's business. That is a terrible thing to have happen, and I know it's happening a lot around the country these days. Atlanta alone has lost tens of thousands of jobs this year. My company fired almost half its sales force 2 weeks ago. Would you like me to take my salary as a clerk and pay you back? Tax dollars are not "free money" for anyone to have. I hope your family finds other ways to make ends meet. Good luck you, and to me, and to all of us. We have not seen the end of this tragedy yet.
alibsam--Yes! a fence. How many illegal immigrants have acquired pet horses and plasma TVs in the last year (I'd say "none")? I think we have enough to go around here if we could stop being greedy and selfish. But where's the fun in that?
pgeorgian--thanks. Well said.
Original Post by alibsam:
thmheh-- Then maybe there should be more being done with illegal immigrants. Instead of putting up some stupid fence that isn't going to work, maybe more should be done to make these immigrants legal and then they can work for fair wages and things like this wouldn't be happening to your husband's business and many others.
Sure! Lets just make all immigrants legal. How bout we just start handing out green cards at the border??
It doesn't matter that others have been waiting years to come over here the right way? We should reward those who snuck over early?
Earthmom - I don't mind a bailout...what I don't like is that the CEOs of these companies could get millions in compensation.
And congratulations for reading what you wanted into it. I didn't say just start handing out green cards, did I? There needs to be a system in place to make them legal. They obviously aren't able to deport everyone now are they? So why not set up some sort of process to make them legal? If they're getting paid the way they should be then they can pay into taxes like everyone else. I don't see how this would be a bad thing.
when states crack down on the employers who are exploiting illegal workers, *shock and surprise* employers stop hiring them
the flood of illegal workers is ONE of the causes of depressed wages in this country
we have limits on immigration for a reason - to pretend that such limits aren't 'fair' or 'right' well hell, let's just abandon the rule of law altogether! (i think this is what bush & cheney decided to do)
as to the bailout, No, I do not agree with giving a blank check to wall street. They have just proven that they will pursue short term gain at the risk of long term annihilation because legally corporate charters require them to maximize shareholder profit - period. And now that annihilation is nigh, they want a bailout. No.
If they're too big to fail, break them into smaller companies (via our dusty un-enforced anti-trust laws) until they're small enough to fail.
We should not reward reckless behavior and stick taxpayers with the bill for it. This is the same argument made against so-called 'welfare queens' and if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for wall street's 'welfare kings'.
I take it back...I'm writing Nomo in on the November ballot. 
??. Rewarding 20 million people who've broken our laws with citizenship is the worst thing we could do. We did it for the 2 million illegal aliens here in 1986, and the problem got worse by TEN TIMES. It's often forgotten that they're not just breaking our immigration laws. There is also nearly always at least identity fraud and/or identity theft and tax evasion too. If you're a citizen, will the government just look the other way for those crimes and say...'oh well, he's otherwise a good, decent, hard-worker'? Don't think so.
Illegal Aliens represent about 4-5% of the workforce. Our unemployment figure is around 6%. Hmm...full employment possibilities? Also, the exodus wouldn't happen all at once, but gradually. Not only will the illegals be replaced by those currently unemployed, but it would give our young people (our kids) who can't find employment now new opportunities.
What most infuriates me about this situation is that is has been intentionally turned into a crisis. We knew the problems existed last year, for Pete's sake. We knew there weren't going to be any magic pills to fix the market. There was absolutely nothing about this entire situation that was a surprise to the people now hoping for the bail out, or the people offering the bucket.
I see this current level of urgency as pure manipulation on the part of the administration, to afford all those rich guys, who have been in collusion for the last six years, a big bright shiny platinum parachute. Cheney's final hurray before the administration is voted out.
Original Post by crazineko:
"maybe more should be done to make these immigrants legal and then they can work for fair wages and things like this wouldn't be happening to your husband's business and many others"
??. Rewarding 20 million people who've broken our laws with citizenship is the worst thing we could do. We did it for the 2 million illegal aliens here in 1986, and the problem got worse by TEN TIMES. It's often forgotten that they're not just breaking our immigration laws. There is also nearly always at least identity fraud and/or identity theft and tax evasion too. If you're a citizen, will the government just look the other way for those crimes and say...'oh well, he's otherwise a good, decent, hard-worker'? Don't think so.
Illegal Aliens represent about 4-5% of the workforce. Our unemployment figure is around 6%. Hmm...full employment possibilities? Also, the exodus wouldn't happen all at once, but gradually. Not only will the illegals be replaced by those currently unemployed, but it would give our young people (our kids) who can't find employment now new opportunities.
The reason those immigration efforts failed was due to lack of enforcement by our government, deep budget cuts at the INS and in border patrolling, lax enforcement of employment verfication laws (I-9 enforcement comes to mind) and a ridiculously low minimum wage (keeping most Americans out of those labor pools).
Yet another problem exacerbated by the culture of corporate greed and cronyism within the current administration.
first, illegal immigration into the U.S. across our southern border has slowed in the last year because there aren't enough jobs - and people who've been here are starting to go back
second, all it would take to correct the immigration problem is for the attorneys general of each state to crack down on employers of illegal immigrants
most of the people coming here from south of the border do not want to be americans -- they just want income
if there is no employer here to hire them unless they come here legally, then they won't come here
it's actually a lot more simple than people on both sides of the issue want to admit
Original Post by crazineko:
Illegal Aliens represent about 4-5% of the workforce. Our unemployment figure is around 6%. Hmm...full employment possibilities? Also, the exodus wouldn't happen all at once, but gradually. Not only will the illegals be replaced by those currently unemployed, but it would give our young people (our kids) who can't find employment now new opportunities.
How many of the 6% unemployed are willing/able to do the same job that 'illegal aliens' are doing for the same pay? I'll give you a hint, none of them. If any of them were willing or able they'd get hired instead of the 'illegal aliens'.
I suspect the majority of illegals in this country are not transient, Nomo. Certainly not the families who have come here, and have had children on American soil.
I think you are correct that immigration has slowed, but we had a rather substantial boost to border patrols in the last few years, when the issue became a dog-wagging debate.
Regardless, immigration is so far down on my list of priorities, as to matter not at all. As you said, it's self-fulfilling. No jobs = no migrant workers, legal or otherwise.
Hi, all.
Some things about the proposed bailout:
At $700 Billion dollars, if there are 300 million Americans, then each of us ponies up $2,333. I have a household of 4, so my household must pay almost $10,000.
There is this language in the bailout:
"Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."
In context, this is saying that all $700 Billion dollars is turned over to the Secretary of the Treasury and no government agency (Like the General Accounting Office) and no court (like the Supreme Court) can question him. The Secretary of the Treasury is chosen by the president...we don't get to elect the secreatary, vote him out, or have any influence over what he/she does.
Our current Secreatary of the Treasury was the CEO of Goldman Sachs before Bush appointed him to the Treasury. Everyone wondered why such a successful investment bank CEO would quit such a lucrative post to go work for the government. Now we know.
Anyone out there read "Atlas Shrugged"? The book carries to the extreme what happens when a company and an industry are not allowed to fail. Not a pretty sight (but it is fiction).
I think my husband summed it up well. The folks on Wall Street and Capitol Hill don't want to allow wealthy folks to fail. It's okay if small business people fail or farmers fail, but they think when a billionaire fails, it's more serious. Poppycock!
No doubt that the collapse of the speculative investment industry will have ripple effects causing unemployment. So, would some one convince me why taxpayers should pay $700B to a select few *in hopes* of preventing a severe economic downturn? $700 billion dollars will go a long way in the existing programs: unemployment insurance, food stamps, and medicaid. Americans are lucky to have such safety nets already in place.
Write your senator and congressmen.
Google: "write senator "and Google: "write congressman." The websites will help you figure out who the right ones to contact are if you're not sure.
Oh...and about immigration...If I was born in Mexico instead of the US, I'd be trying to get here, too. I don't think I'm any different from other parents who are trying to do what's best to take care of their families, regardless of what language we speak.
Ok, off my soapbox.
Original Post by floggingsully:
Original Post by crazineko:
Illegal Aliens represent about 4-5% of the workforce. Our unemployment figure is around 6%. Hmm...full employment possibilities? Also, the exodus wouldn't happen all at once, but gradually. Not only will the illegals be replaced by those currently unemployed, but it would give our young people (our kids) who can't find employment now new opportunities.How many of the 6% unemployed are willing/able to do the same job that 'illegal aliens' are doing for the same pay? I'll give you a hint, none of them. If any of them were willing or able they'd get hired instead of the 'illegal aliens'.
Not neccessarily true. The wages paid are often much higher than minimum wage, however, illegals pay a lot back for company housing, company credit, etc.
That is exactly what I was going to post in reply to crazineko. There are reasons why they're getting hired... Americans aren't taking those jobs.
About 6 years ago my father worked as a foreman for a construction company. They couldn't find ANY US citizens to work so they had to resort to hiring illegal immigrants because they couldn't get the work done on time. My dad loved having them there because they worked so much harder than any of the "legal" guys at the company.
Original Post by mamarose:
Ok, off my soapbox.
Dang it. One more thing and then I'll shut up.
The proposed bail out is supposed to work by allowing the Secretary of the Treasury to spend $700 Billion dollars to buy bad debt from the investment banks. The proposal says that as the government holds this bad debt, some of it will become good and investors will want to buy it from the government. The government is supposed to come out ok because it will be buying low and selling high.
This is a fallacy. If this scenario was really likely, then we taxpayers wouldn't be forced to buy this bad debt. Other investors--like China--would buy this debt.
Ok...I'll stop. Can you tell I'm passionate about this?
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