beginning to think there's more smokers than non-smokers

Anyone else feel this way? I even over heard someone say they were surprised how many there are in Toronto (they aren't from here). It seems like half the people I see as I wait for the bus to work are smoking. At the bar this Saturday for a bday party, nearly the whole group of people were smoking (we were on the patio). I still smell it. I would say at least half my co-workers smoke (my boss doesn't even say have a 'break', it's 'smoke break'). Heck most of my friends the last couple years are smokers. What gives? Are more people getting hooked on them?

Oh yeah I remember walking down one of the main streets in the spring, and the sidewalk that was covered by snowbanks was now covered by old cigarette butts...so gross.

I don't mean to offend any smokers (do you guys even get offended by us non-smokers complaining?!?)...but why are there so many of you -.-

Original Post by zippo2u:

 your not in danger of anything, and i really think you need to get over your "better than tho" attiude. as for the balcony was it not the non-smokers who forced us outside? i have a niece who is six and a nephew who is three. they were playing the other day. he had a toy train she had a toy car. all of a sudden she wanted the train. so he started playing with a bunch of blocks. then she wanted the blocks. anybody can see what was happing here. it wasn't that she wanted any of these things. she just didnt want him to have them. this is the mind set of most non-smokers. "you cant smoke in this restaurant because i'm here." "oh your going next door? well you cant smoke there either. because i just decided i like it over there better." "what? your going to the place at the end of the block?" "nope cant go there because i like it so much better then those other two places." "i know they sell the same thing at all three, but i think everywhere you go i'm going to like it better." "as a matter of fact i think i had better follow you around. because even though your old enough to vote, join the armed forces, and give your life for your country. i dont think your quiet old enough or smart enough to decide what you can do with your body or your property." have non-smokers really fallen to the level of a six year old? because they dont want anyone anywhere to smoke. again it goes back to other people trying to force thier ideas of right and wrong on others.

wow, zippo.  you are one irate dude. 

the fact that you want to turn this isn't a territoriality issue and completely ignore the health implications just illustrates the degree of your defensiveness.   nobody cares if you smoke (well, maybe your family does; i certainly don't).

Original Post by pgeorgian:

Original Post by zippo2u:

 ok. first question you have the right not to smoke if you choose. second issue just because you choose not to put chemicals in your body does not give you the right to tell others what they can put in theirs. you say you want to be away from smoke, and thats your right. if an owner of a business chooses to let his customers smoke you dont have to go into that business. thats your choice. the owner of that business has every right to run it any way he wants to. this is an issue of freedom and rights. so please strive to see the difference between your choice and mine. going by what your saying we can tell walmart they cant let people in wearing a certin perfume because it makes me sick. i can understand having no smoking in places where you have to go court houses, to pay your taxes, ect. but in a private business the person who pays the bills makes the rules. if you dont like those rules then go to a place thats more suited to your taste. thats your right, and your freedom of choice. where i live there are ten bars nine dont allow smoking. do you go to one of these? no you force the one bar's owner to go non-smoking. taking away his right, and freedom as a property owner. does this bar owner come to your house, and tell you you cant have cats because he's alergic to them? no he simply doesn't go to your house.

zippo, the rationale for banning smoking in businesses is about protecting employees, not customers.  we all have a right to a degree of safety in the workplace, not just individually, but in terms of larger societal costs.

by all means, poison yourself; just don't poison the rest of us.

 was the employee told that smoking is allowed in this business before he/she took the job? when he/she went for the interview did he/she see customers smoking? seems like this is another one of those pesky right of choice things. if you cant work in a smoke environment theres a non-smoking place right down the street thats hiring. right of choice to take the job or not. if we take that away lets just get rid a few others. right of free speech? naw that just makes people think. we wont be needing that. the right of trial by jury? naw if i say you did it thats good enough. lets just mark thru that one. the right to vote? wont be needing that one. the right to an education? lets get rid of that one too. goes back to that thinking thing. these rights are for everyone. white, black. short, tall. old, young. smokers and non-smokers. the only difference between the two. i respect your right to choose. while you feel it your right to choose for me.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

Original Post by zippo2u:

 your not in danger of anything, and i really think you need to get over your "better than tho" attiude. as for the balcony was it not the non-smokers who forced us outside? i have a niece who is six and a nephew who is three. they were playing the other day. he had a toy train she had a toy car. all of a sudden she wanted the train. so he started playing with a bunch of blocks. then she wanted the blocks. anybody can see what was happing here. it wasn't that she wanted any of these things. she just didnt want him to have them. this is the mind set of most non-smokers. "you cant smoke in this restaurant because i'm here." "oh your going next door? well you cant smoke there either. because i just decided i like it over there better." "what? your going to the place at the end of the block?" "nope cant go there because i like it so much better then those other two places." "i know they sell the same thing at all three, but i think everywhere you go i'm going to like it better." "as a matter of fact i think i had better follow you around. because even though your old enough to vote, join the armed forces, and give your life for your country. i dont think your quiet old enough or smart enough to decide what you can do with your body or your property." have non-smokers really fallen to the level of a six year old? because they dont want anyone anywhere to smoke. again it goes back to other people trying to force thier ideas of right and wrong on others.

wow, zippo.  you are one irate dude. 

the fact that you want to turn this isn't a territoriality issue and completely ignore the health implications just illustrates the degree of your defensiveness.   nobody cares if you smoke (well, maybe your family does; i certainly don't).

 is this the only argument for non-smokers. name calling and the old "it's bad for you." not one smoker out there thinks its good for them. we do it because it's our choice. it's our health. it's our bodies. they are our lungs. it all comes down to that. right of choice.

dont want to smoke? dont smoke. right of choice

dont want to be around smokers? dont go to their clubs and restaurants. right of choice

employees dont want to work in a smoking environment? dont take the job. right of choice.

still no one has told me why their rights are more important than mine. i wont take the second hand smoke answer. if you dont go to or take a job in a smoking environment than this is not a factor. i wont take the "it's bad for your health" answer either. as i have said it's not your choice. it's mine, and i wont take the "it's for the greater good" or "the good of the public" answer. as i recall that was one of Hitler's lines. he used the word "state" instead of public but it comes down to the same thing.

Ouch, looks like this has turned into quite the debate.

To answer the original post: I live in Romania, Europe, and over here there are most definitely more smokers (some 'occasionals' but mainly regulars) than non smokers among the youth.

It`s getting to be quite frustrating when I am out dancing or having a good time on weekends, end up flirting for half an hour with a nice guy, only to be completely put off by him lighting up. Don`t mean to be offensive, it`s just a matter of personal preference, as I`ve been in a long-term relationship with a smoker and it`s just not something I can be happy and comfortable with.

Kind of afraid to respond to this anymore.  Thank God I didn't put my address in my profile :):)

I hear you bbjoe, though it's not fear keeping me away it's the retarded angst.

If the only job available was a job where smoking was permitted, then my "choice" is between breathing carcinogenic fumes or feeding my family, paying my rent (in other words, continuing to live in society)

That's not a choice that I should be forced to make.

And there are a lot of areas where unemployment is over 13%, meaning there are a lot more workers than there are jobs. So, no, it's not like I can just go down the street and get a job in a non-smoking location.

In theory, perhaps.  In reality, no.

And I do think that public policy should be reality-based, not based on an ideology that a group of people wishes were true.

This will be my only comment in this thread - just want to thank everyone for being civil.

Original Post by zippo2u:

  is this the only argument for non-smokers. name calling and the old "it's bad for you."

not "it's bad for you" - "it's bad for me."  but i'm sure you'll ignore that - again.

as for employees "choosing" where they work, that's not always possible.  and ultimately, it's a fiscal problem: we all play the cost of smoking-related disease, whether that's from first- or second-hand smoke. 

What about the litter too?  Why aren't people arrested for throwing their butts out the window or flicking them wherever they damn well please?

Why don't we just talk about politics or religion?  Let's get this party started right!

Just stirring the pot...starting to get bored with the same ole ranting and raving.  Obviously, there's no reasoning here...agree to disagree.

there's plenty of reasoning, bigbear.  just not all of us are willing to hear it.

a few facts that maybe not everyone knows:

• only about 5% of cigarette smoke is visible, so when you see that cloud around the smokers, multiply it by 20.
• clothing, furniture, bedding, etc. absorb the chemicals in cigarette smoke and then release them over time, so even someone who never smokes around others still exposes them to carcinogens and other toxins.
• kids are particularly susceptible to these effects, and the children of smokers--even smokers who never smoke at home--are adversely affected in terms of learning, behaviour, and health.  they also have a higher mortality rate, specifically a higher rate of SIDS.

as far as i'm concerned, this is a non-issue.  where i live, smoking is banned in all public buildings and many outdoor public areas.  if i have to walk past a smoker once a week, it's a bad week.  none of my friends and nobody in my family smokes.  it's over.  but the fact that there are still people out there who don't get it is kind-of shocking to me.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

this is a non-issue.  where i live, smoking is banned in all public buildings and many outdoor public areas.  if i have to walk past a smoker once a week, it's a bad week.  none of my friends and nobody in my family smokes.  it's over.  but the fact that there are still people out there who don't get it is kind-of shocking to me.

 and this is why i LOVE BC.  :)

(except that i do walk past smokers alot...)

i worked at starbucks for a short period of time.  when smoking on patios was banned, all the baristas were really excited...because when they went to clean the tables, they didn't have to come back reeking of smoke.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

Original Post by zippo2u:

  is this the only argument for non-smokers. name calling and the old "it's bad for you."

not "it's bad for you" - "it's bad for me."  but i'm sure you'll ignore that - again.

as for employees "choosing" where they work, that's not always possible.  and ultimately, it's a fiscal problem: we all play the cost of smoking-related disease, whether that's from first- or second-hand smoke. 

again it comes back to this. if your not in the same place as a smoker how is it bad for you? but i'm sure you'll ignore that. if you come to work with cat or dog hairs on your clothes, and i have an allergic reaction. well, thats bad for me. get rid of your pet. employees do have a right to choose where they work. you dont like the smell of gas? dont go to work at a gas station. if the only job you can find is on the 3rd shift and you cant work that. keep looking or bite the bullett, and adjust your schedule. thats their right of choice. as for the fiscal problem. how many people have been paying for schools when they dont have kids? why should they be paying for your kids to go to school? how much of our tax money has been sent to other countries? we all play cost of that too. i could care less if some guy in Istanbul got a new mule to plow his field with, but yet i'm still made to pay. this line of debate doesn't hold water either. it all comes down to a group of people trying to play mother & father and force their ethics on the rest of us.

so zippo, you really enjoy coming out of a bar at the end of the night and having your clothing and hair reek of smoke? i don't get it.

i have several friends who smoke, and they were not bothered in the slightest by the smoking ban placed on boston bars. but then they also aren't so lazy and inconsiderate that it would bother them to step outside.

Original Post by zippo2u:

again it comes back to this. if your not in the same place as a smoker how is it bad for you? but i'm sure you'll ignore that. if you come to work with cat or dog hairs on your clothes, and i have an allergic reaction. well, thats bad for me. get rid of your pet. employees do have a right to choose where they work. you dont like the smell of gas? dont go to work at a gas station. if the only job you can find is on the 3rd shift and you cant work that. keep looking or bite the bullett, and adjust your schedule. thats their right of choice. as for the fiscal problem. how many people have been paying for schools when they dont have kids? why should they be paying for your kids to go to school? how much of our tax money has been sent to other countries? we all play cost of that too. i could care less if some guy in Istanbul got a new mule to plow his field with, but yet i'm still made to pay. this line of debate doesn't hold water either. it all comes down to a group of people trying to play mother & father and force their ethics on the rest of us.

okay, i'm a socialist.  i'm all for education funding (and no, i don't have kids), universal healthcare, international aid, all of it.  and i absolutely support your right to smoke; i wouldn't dream of denying you that.

i do not support your right to subject other people (smokers and non-smokers alike) to poison.

and if i work with someone who's allergic to my dog, i'll make an extra effort to go to work dog-hair free.  but i'm like that.

there are health risks associated with being around smokers even when they're not smoking.  but i already talked about that (#130).

this has nothing to do with ethics (or with morals, which i suspect is what you meant).  it's about the basic assumption that individual rights end at the point where they infringe on those of other individuals.  that's the bottom line.

Original Post by zippo2u:

Original Post by pgeorgian:

Original Post by zippo2u:

employees do have a right to choose where they work. you dont like the smell of gas? dont go to work at a gas station. if the only job you can find is on the 3rd shift and you cant work that. keep looking or bite the bullett, and adjust your schedule. thats their right of choice. 

 so hold on...

you find it 100% acceptable to force people to work in 2nd hand smoke filled environments?  you think that your comfort is worth their possible health complications in the future? 

you seriously make me want to punch things.

I smell a troll.

joined CC yesterday only to wax on and on and on about butts in the red-neck vernacular?

Please.

bagga, i was thinking the same thing (actually, i was thinking giggle_puppy had come back to haunt me).

at first i thought zippo was a cranky old man, as in, "I've been smoking for fifty-seven years and it hasn't done me a lick of harm!"

but really, i haven't come across a smoker who's this self-righteous in years.  no, in ever.