Body Superiority, Fat Pride, Feminism and The Fashion Industry

These are some thoughts that have been on my mind for quite some time now.

Lately, I've noticed a lot of what I call 'fat pride' and I hate it. I hate it just as much as I hate pro-ana, pro-mia and wannarexia. Overweight people were once the victims of body superiority, now they seem advocate it.

Body superiority and fat pride seems to be more common in women. Women that label themselves 'curvy'. To be honest, I used to always think of pin-up girls with their busts and hips both ten inches wider than their tiny waists, but that no longer seems to be the case. 'Curvy' now means fat. There's no other word for it. "I'm not fat, I'm curvy. And proud of it," was a popular chant. I have no problem with obese women, just as long as they acknowledge that they are doing their bodies severe harm, and may not outlive previous generations due to health implications such as heart disease, high cholesterol and type 2 diabetes.

Such proud 'curvy' women claim to be very confident with their appearance, but if that was the case, why would they regularly target thinner women? Whenever I hear an overweight woman talk about being proud of her curves, for some reason she always seems to mention size 0. This doesn't sound entirely convincing. Also, the most popular reply in defense of their 'curves' (or lack of) seems to be: "Men prefer curvy women anyway."

I'm sorry, but what era are we currently living in? An era where beauty is still defined by a man's idea of perfection? You'd never have guessed that we were living in a post-feminist era judging by that insecure response. In the twenty-first century, women are still bending over backwards to meet a man's vision of beauty. I honestly couldn't care less if men thought I was beautiful (and before you go judging me, no I am not a lesbian). Because I would never marry for looks, and I would never allow a man to marry me for looks. To be taken seriously, women still have to dress in an adrogynous fashion. Just to let everyone know: My life does not revolve around pleasing the opposite sex and 'marrying well'. Sadly, for many, is still does.

Moving on swiftly, another popular claim by 'curvaceous' women is, "I may not be skinny, but at least I have a life." This generalisation seems to enforce the stereotype that all smaller-than-average woman (bearing in mind that the average woman in the Western World is overweight) live to count calories and exercise excessively.

Unfortunately, I am not a prime example of a slim woman living life to the full. I've had an eating disorder (EDNOS) for the past two years (since 13) and I am currently trying to recover on my own. But I know plenty of women that weigh a lot less than me and have lives that I could only dream of. Another generalisation with regards to eating disorders is that only rich and skinny white girls develop them. A huge proportion of men develop them too, and while eating disorders are most common in Western caucasions, another percentage of disordered eaters are from other ethnic groups. Also, just because you're overweight does not mean that you don't have an eating disorder. The most common eating disorder is Binge Eating Disorder (BED) where a person spontaneously consumes huge amounts on a regular basis.

And finally, the fashion industry. Where do I begin? I do not advocate eating disorders, if one has gone through the pain of an eating disorder it's almost physically impossible to encourage them (unless you're a sadist, of course).

The fashion industry has never caused an outsider's eating disorder. It is ridiculous to say that the industry's 'pressure to be thin' is the cause of the sudden rise in the incidence of eating disorders.

My eating disorder was not caused by looking at pictures of uber-thin celebrities and waif-like high fashion models. Instead, it was caused by extremely low self-esteem, poor body image and very little self-confidence (among other mental problems and complications).

That's why I almost praise size 0 models. They show to what extremes the modern woman will go for vanity. The female (and indeed, male) body is no longer something that is appreciated, rather it's something that needs to be altered and 'perfected'. This really shows how far we've come as result of feminism.

Fashion does not, can you believe, dictate society. Fashion is merely a satirical reflection of society. Many people seem to forget that the fashion industry isn't some brain-washing organisation out to destroy your freedom and personal opinions. Beauty is a very personal opinion and varies from person to person. Rather, the fashion industry is trying to sell. Despite what the conspiracy theorists say, all the industry is trying to do is make money. Because it is a business at the end of the day. And they use very thin models for one reason: thin sells. People are constantly calling out for curvier women, but if thin models really weren't working, those advertisements would not be selling. Thin is in, and the only way that can be changed is if society changes it's views about larger people. I know that bigger people have had the huge burden of being stigmatised because of their bodies, but this is all because of body superiority.

Now bigger people see this as a chance to get revenge for how they've been treated in recent times. I know it's a lot to ask for, but please don't do it. When you stereotype thin people, you are treating them exactly how you were treated. And as Gandhi once said, "An eye for an eye made the world blind."

The message of the story is; I admit, thin is in. Thin models intimidate the average woman, and it results in the sale of goods. The fashion industry wouldn't use size 0 models if they couldn't market the clothes well. We are still intimidated by these models because of our poor body image. Our poor body image is a result of our fixation with vanity and appearance.

If you want to change society's idea of beauty, you'll have to change your own first. Beauty is skin-deep.

(Bear in mind these are all broad generalisations and I do not mean to talk about an group in society as a whole).

ah too many points for my little brain.

Sorry!

For someone who so adamently wishes fat people would stop stereotyping "size 0's", it sounds like you hold several stereotypes about size 18's. I'm not sure how many revenge-seeking fat people you've encountered in your life (lol, seriously) but you have admitted that low self esteem led you to mistreat your body - has it occurred to you that the fat women who are on this site to lose weight (i.e. trying to treat their bodies better) maybe just prefer doing it without the harmful counter effects of self loathing?

Honestly, a lot of the feminist rebellion happens within women who are not obese, just not model-thin. If "fashionably thin" were also healthy, there might be some reason besides social pressure to aspire to it, or to defend it - but it's not. The lengths to which adult women (who are not athletes) have to go in order to remain that skinny - bizarre eating habits, overexercise, amphetamines, cocaine - attest to that. It's actually not that hard when you're a teenager to resemble that ideal, before you have finished "filling out" - and no way do I buy the notion that young girls NEVER develop body obsessions and low self-image as they grow out of that lanky, slender, fashion-modelish phase that characterises early adolescence. You say your problem was due to low self-esteem and poor body image - yet there is no chance that these things were at least partly shaped by unrealistic expectations of female beauty?

Lots of perfectly healthy women are considered "too fat" to properly wear fashionable clothes, which don't hang on them properly because they aren't meant for women with round hips or thick thighs or large breasts etc. And I am not talking about obese women, just women who happen to have shapes unlike fashion models. Hell, the same applies to short women. Sometimes, when people say they are curvy, they are simply curvy. I am not obese, and have no hips or butt to speak of (makes it easier to find pants, actually) but I do have a pair of 38DDs that make it REAL difficult to find tops that fit, and all but eliminate the possibility of button-down shirts. If I call myself curvy (albeit only on top) does that mean I am automatically a size 18? (I'm not).

Large women ARE stigmatized in our society, and it is not because of their presumed lack of health, or their presumed diabetes/heart disease or whatever. I understand the desire to lash back by denigrating skinny women, though obviously as a feminist I recognize that this is just as counterproductive as thin women assuming they are more attractive than their heavier counterparts. Do you not realize, by the way, that it is the flip side of the (more socially unstated but clear) assumption that a heavy woman is automatically not in the same league as a slender woman? That slender women "relax" about their heavy friends - if they happen to be the kind of slender woman who views men as stupid, hormone-driven, wallet-bearing prey, that is. It's therefore subversive, in a way, for heavy women to say "no, he likes this too" - though honestly not that subversive because men remain socially discouraged from liking heavy women, especially when they are young, and will often keep it secret.

Feminism has NOTHING to do with rejecting natural female bodies, or trying to alter or "perfect" them. Don't delude yourself - it's exactly the opposite. If you "almost" admire models (don't kid yourself, if you have an ED, you know there's nothing "almost" about it) it has nothing to do with feminism, freedom, or independence - quite the contrary. Feminism goes much, much deeper than skin. As a feminist one of the things that really bothers me about the youth/beauty worship culture we are in is that it completely ignores and devalues everything else about us. Beauty, or lack thereof, does not even rank on any clear-eyed, grown-up assessment of human worth. One feminist book that talks about the beauty paradigm as a tool of the patriarchy, meant to control women's ambitions and keep them off-balance, is "The Beauty Myth" by Naomi Wolf. I encourage everyone to read it.

I also see a lot of people hide their fat-hatred behind "but your health!". Click here to see how BMI doesn't tell the whole story, first of all. Then, please remember that an ED is much more harmful to your health, and has a much worse prognosis, than even mild obesity (BMI 30-35). You say that size 18s always reference size 0s, but people with EDs always reference those who are 300 lbs. "Reverse thinspiration" tells young women that if they eat that one slice of pizza they will wind up like the immobile, super-morbid obese woman in the picture - whereas more likely they will simply wind up at a healthy weight or maybe a little bit overweight (which is NOT associated with health risks and actually is associated with a longer life than normal weight, let alone underweight). The size 18s might be a bit unrealistic in ignoring the health risks they face, but not as unrealistic as the people who are underfeeding themselves; the latter's health risk is actually greater.

I have more to say on this but this post is long enough for now, and my friend is coming over.

Original Post by sadinplaid:

For someone who so adamently wishes fat people would stop stereotyping "size 0's", it sounds like you hold several stereotypes about size 18's. I'm not sure how many revenge-seeking fat people you've encountered in your life (lol, seriously) but you have admitted that low self esteem led you to mistreat your body - has it occurred to you that the fat women who are on this site to lose weight (i.e. trying to treat their bodies better) maybe just prefer doing it without the harmful counter effects of self loathing?

Stereotypes? Not at all. I'm just talking about my own personal experiences.

Trustwomen - well said. I'm going to check out the book you mentioned.

Feminism has NOTHING to do with rejecting natural female bodies, or trying to alter or "perfect" them. Don't delude yourself - it's exactly the opposite. If you "almost" admire models (don't kid yourself, if you have an ED, you know there's nothing "almost" about it)

I'm just faulting society in it's entirety when talking about 'perfecting' natural female bodies. I hate the whole concept.

And please don't judge people with eating disorders. Eating disorders have existed a lot longer than super-thin models. They have very little to do with vanity.

Do you honestly think I spent two years slowly killing myself for vanity?

I don't admire models, but I don't have a problem with them either. They have been chosen to market goods for the fashion industry, and society as a whole has chosen what 'beauty' is. The fashion industry is proving how women will supress the human instinct of eating for vanity.

Yes there is a lot of body fascism in the fashion industry, but that would not be the case if society was more tolerant to different body types, or did not put so much emphasis on appearance.

You're incredibly naive if you think the fashion industry has no effect on women's body image and doesn't dictate what society thinks is beautiful. 

If we didn't place so much emphasis on vanity and did not measure our self worth and the self worth of others on appearance it wouldn't make a clod of a difference.

Besides, why the hell would the fashion industry want to intimidate people? To sell clothes, of course! There's no secrecy to that. They only use thin models because society wants thin models. Was that not the case, the industry would not be making billions every year.

hmm...
loottt to think about....

although you made many good, well thought out points
[ which i do understand ]

i have to disagree about the fashion industry not having an impact on womens body image, or wat we think beauty is... it plays a HUGE part.
it dictates to women [and men] what is pretty, hot, sexy and even acceptable...

Original Post by wormyeyelid:

If we didn't place so much emphasis on vanity and did not measure our self worth and the self worth of others on appearance it wouldn't make a clod of a difference.

Besides, why the hell would the fashion industry want to intimidate people? To sell clothes, of course! There's no secrecy to that. They only use thin models because society wants thin models. Was that not the case, the industry would not be making billions every year.

You're 15, right? I guess I should expect the naivete. You're contradicting yourself a lot. Fat people shouldn't have high self-confidence but then we shouldn't base of self-worth on vanity and appearances? Straighten your arguments out first because the contradictions are giving me a headache. 

How am I being naive? By going against what everybody else is saying? I'm just voicing my own opinion.

I'm sorry, but where did I say that fat people shouldn't have high self-confidence? Everybody should have self-confidence, but nobody should be exceptionally proud because of their body shape. This is what causes body superiority.

May I ask why you care what another woman feels about herself? If she's overweight and loves herself and has "fat pride", how does it effect you and your life?

I'd kill to be a size 18.

Original Post by alibsam:

Original Post by wormyeyelid:

If we didn't place so much emphasis on vanity and did not measure our self worth and the self worth of others on appearance it wouldn't make a clod of a difference.

Besides, why the hell would the fashion industry want to intimidate people? To sell clothes, of course! There's no secrecy to that. They only use thin models because society wants thin models. Was that not the case, the industry would not be making billions every year.

You're 15, right? I guess I should expect the naivete. You're contradicting yourself a lot. Fat people shouldn't have high self-confidence but then we shouldn't base of self-worth on vanity and appearances? Straighten your arguments out first because the contradictions are giving me a headache. 

She didn't say that fat women shouldn't be confident, have you seen some of these pro-fat blogs?  They're cut-throat!  It's someone with a medical problem looking down on someone for trying to improve themselves or already being healthy.  THAT is a problem.

Imagine a size 25 and a size 00 (at 5'8", I know short 00's who are perfectly healthy), walking past each other at the mall.  Each one giving the other a disgusted look and thinking "Freak."   This isn't how women should be!  We should be sympathetic and recognize that each of these people has an equal and probably very similar problem!

As an aside - it's not polite to bring age into an issue.  No one's calling you out on all your "worldly experience."  Oh wait, you have yet to make a single logical point apart from "You're so naive, it's giving me a headache."  How about adding to the discussion?

Original Post by alibsam:

Original Post by wormyeyelid:

If we didn't place so much emphasis on vanity and did not measure our self worth and the self worth of others on appearance it wouldn't make a clod of a difference.

Besides, why the hell would the fashion industry want to intimidate people? To sell clothes, of course! There's no secrecy to that. They only use thin models because society wants thin models. Was that not the case, the industry would not be making billions every year.

You're 15, right? I guess I should expect the naivete. You're contradicting yourself a lot. Fat people shouldn't have high self-confidence but then we shouldn't base of self-worth on vanity and appearances? Straighten your arguments out first because the contradictions are giving me a headache. 

I agree.  If you want to have a discussion, you have to know where you stand.  Though I do admire a 15 year old who is willing to come on here and start a thread.

Original Post by tealparadise:

Imagine a size 25 and a size 00 (at 5'8", I know short 00's who are perfectly healthy), walking past each other at the mall.  Each one giving the other a disgusted look and thinking "Freak."   This isn't how women should be!  We should be sympathetic and recognize that each of these people has an equal and probably very similar problem!

Wow I hope this isn't very common! I never walk by a skinny person (male or female!) and think freak...ever! Nor do I think the same about an overweight person. How awful!

I'm a size 22 (for now ) and when I see a very skinny person I just envy them, haha. I never think anything negative about them. I usually think "I wish I could wear that...". People really need to learn to love and stop with so much freakin' hate!

I think eating disorders can only be understood by those who have experience them. Most people with any sort of eating disorder, whether it be anorexia nervosa, bulimia, or binge eating disorder, are engaging in these activities because or low self esteem; they are intentionally destroying themselves out of self hatred. This is the reason why anorexic people are the most likely to actually follow through with suicide attempts. They just don't want to exist anymore. They want to wither away to nothingness. Overeaters aren't any better or worse: They ignore their true feelings and eat to compensate for that. They essentially are the same problem dealt with in a similar way actually, because both use food to deal with their emotions. Therefore, I don't think anybody should glorify being underweight or overweight. Everybody should strive to have healthy, happy lives.

I see nothing wrong with being proud of your body at any size. "Fat pride" and "pro-ana/mia" do fall in the same category. But so freaking what if someone is fat? Unless you know them personally and feel the need to intervene and help them get healthier, it's honestly no one's business! Everyone is always talking about the problem of low self esteem in young girls, yet when someone does show some confidence they get bashed, or thought of as full of themselves. There seems no way to win. 

And as for the fashion industry, you may not think that it has an effect, but you yourself said you have low self esteem. As a psych undergrad, do you realize how much of advertising is subliminal? How much of an impact society as a whole, and everything you see/hear, even if you don't think that you see/hear it registers? So even if low self esteem doesn't come from looking at Vogue, it may come from society, who does look at Vogue; it can be indirect too. I can show you some videos that prove just how much effect subliminal messages have on us.

Being in recovery from anorexia nervosa myself, I never blamed the media/stick thin runway girls. And while that may not have been the root of my e/d, if our society looked down upon thinness and condemned it the way we do obesity, would I have become as underweight as I did? I honestly don't have the answer to this question, but it is something to consider and ponder. 

I don't care if somebody is fat or not, but I don't think somebody should be proud of their unhealthy lifestyle. It's not like I go around and proudly flaunt the fact that I'm a smoker. But I have an addiction (not unlike a fat person with a food addiction). Spme people smoke with me, some people don't care that I do it, some people hate that I'm doing it to my health, and some people are just disgusted by it. I think that's fairly analogous to the fat/ana pride argument.

I really don't think my eating disorder was provoked by the fashion industry at all. I know it's different for everybody. I think images of obese people were more of a trigger than fashion ads.

I pretty much disagree with everything in the OP.  My feelings come down to this:

- Everyone deserves self-esteem and self-worth, regardless of their body status (fat, skinny, disabled, battling ED, short, tall, smoker, non-smoker, etc.).

- Having pride in yourself does not necessary translate to feelings of superiority.  Just as "black is beautiful" isn't typically a statement of black supremacy, and "gay pride" isn't typically a statement of homosexual supremacy, "fat pride" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with fat supremacy.  IMHO, the assumption that statements of pride by those with traditionally lower status are actually assertions of supremacy over those with higher status is simply a manifestation of the defensiveness of those with higher status.

- Making sweeping generalizations about "the most popular reply" when an overweight woman is fat-shamed is just insulting, as it is more likely to reflect your own biases than anything having to do with reality. 

- Stereotyping one group of people about how they stereotype another group of people is never an effective argumentative strategy. 

- Adding a caveat at the end about generalizations doesn't actually change the fact that you are making generalizations.  To avoid being accused of generalization, talk about discreet individuals instead of generalizing!  Did someone make a claim that you disagree with?  Identify their claim, link it to one person (not everyone with whom they share a weight class), and then discredit it.  But if you make an argument in terms of a general group such as "overweight women" by definition you are making a generalization.  Sorry, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. 

- Your fashion industry claim is poorly researched and flies in the face of common sense.  The marketing industry (of which fashion is a major patron) exists to influence people; if it was unsuccessful, companies wouldn't pour billions into it (indeed, often more than they invest in their actual products).  Creating the strawman argument that no fashion company literally infected an individual with an anorexia germ or something is not an effective argument, because no one is suggesting that the relationship between the two is that simple minded (i.e. read a fashion mag and catch anorexia).  I mean, no one who actually takes this issue seriously on a professional level.  Further, just because an industry makes a lot of money doesn't mean that the need it is fulfilling isn't socially constructed. For example, no one needs a cell phone to survive; it is a need that was created by society, including companies that produce electronics.  Just because cell phone companies make billions of dollars doesn't mean that they haven't actively worked to produce a sense among their clientele that they "need" a cell phone.  Likewise with the fashion and beauty industry.

- Do you really see no connection between the 'vanity' and 'concern for appearance' that you claim leads to body image problems and the fact there there exists an ENTIRE INDUSTRY that SELLS vanity and concern for appearance? 

- The "thin sells" argument is incredibly weak given the existence of an industry (marketing) that exists to keep this idea in people's minds.  Quite a confounding variable.  If fashion is "merely a satirical reflection of reality" (LOL), there should be no reason for aggressive marketing as we presently see.  Why spend billions of dollars a year telling people what they already know? 

- Beyond that, why not ask yourself WHY thin sells?  Do you really believe that there is no relationship between the rise of a mass-consumer society and the rise of an increasingly homogeneous view of female beauty?  Do you really think that society has always been like this -- that thinness has 'always' been an obsession?