Californian Octuplets..... Miracle or GBH?
Started out as a feelgood story but since it emerged that the Californian mother of the octuplets born last week underwent IVF with the implantation of (at least) 8 embryos, the atmosphere is changing. Since the practice elsewhere is now to discourage multiple births, only one or two embryos are implanted by reputable clinics. A clinic implanting 8 would be guilty of putting not only the babies' but the mother's life at risk..... It's operating well outside of accepted guidelines and possibly guilty of medical malpractice.
Should the clinic responsible be tracked down and struck off?
Original Post by gi-jane:
Started out as a feelgood story but since it emerged that the Californian mother of the octuplets born last week underwent IVF with the implantation of (at least) 8 embryos, the atmosphere is changing. Since the practice elsewhere is now to discourage multiple births, only one or two embryos are implanted by reputable clinics. A clinic implanting 8 would be guilty of putting not only the babies' but the mother's life at risk..... It's operating well outside of accepted guidelines and possibly guilty of medical malpractice.
Should the clinic responsible be tracked down and struck off?
Yes, that is irresponsible medical practice. The doctors should lose their licenses.
Are you sure it wasn't just ovarian hyperstimulation but rather artificial implantation of that many embryos? Usually it's the former that causes all the dangerous multiples... and it's not as bad as actually implanting that many.
What really got me about this story is that this woman already had 6 other children - now she's looking at raising 14. Now, maybe I'm a maternal pansy, but sometimes I'm challenged with with my two boys - how does a parent keep track and have enough time for 14 kids, 8 of them newborns needing constant attention just to keep them fed?
And I don't know their financial situation, but there should be some concern - even some moderately well off people are concerned about the costs involved with providing for much smaller families - donations and gift baskets from friends and anonymous strangers will only go so far.
Maybe they plan to become another reality show, like "Jon & Kate + 8." Jon and Kate have admitted on the show that if it weren't for the show, its sponsors, and all the attention they've received, they would never be able to afford raising 8 kids.
According to the new reports I last saw it was IVF-- but I just cant think that any doctor, irresponsible or not, would have put in 8 embryos. And no doctor should be allowing unmonitored IUI or clomid cycles or injectables cycles. I think the most likely scenario is that she was using "left over" or borrowed stimulating drugs and was unmonitored.
I think its terrible.
they just discussed this on cbc newsworld (canadian version of cnn). apparently not only were the 8 the product of IVF, but so were the other 6 (sextuplets, i think).
the problem is that the fertility industry is basically an on-demand service, and it's virtually unregulated. the customer is always right. she says "implant all eight embryos" and they say "yes, ma'am." she bought and paid for the product; she's entitled to do what she wants with it.
yeah, it's disgusting.
and i'd be willing to bet that she says god wanted her to have eight babies (no, honey, god wanted you to have none).
Original Post by pgeorgian:
they just discussed this on cbc newsworld (canadian version of cnn). apparently not only were the 8 the product of IVF, but so were the other 6 (sextuplets, i think).
the problem is that the fertility industry is basically an on-demand service, and it's virtually unregulated. the customer is always right. she says "implant all eight embryos" and they say "yes, ma'am." she bought and paid for the product; she's entitled to do what she wants with it.
yeah, it's disgusting.
and i'd be willing to bet that she says god wanted her to have eight babies (no, honey, god wanted you to have none).
I think it's terrible. Those "doctors" should never have given her IVF again.
All her children were from in-vitro, but their ages are 2 thru 7, so not sextuplets though. I haven't heard stated if any of them are multiples, but I would imagine they are.
And Grandma can't seem to keep her mouth shut. 90% of the info coming out is from her. She says her daughter lives with her, and that she (Grandma) did seek psychiatric help on how to deal with her daughter, but didn't follow through with it.
From my understanding its common to implant several embryos in the hopes that one takes. On the rare occasion more then one takes the Dr.s talk to the patient about selective termination of the excess embryo's. And in this case the Dr. did but the mother refused. And unfortunately (when thinking of cases like this) a women has the "god given" right to have as many kids as she wants. So there was nothing the Dr. could do to stop her from carrying out with all 8 embryos (they only knew of 7 until birth). The Dr.s job was only to ensure this women was making a informed decision by explaining the medical risks. I have to think that this women must have concealed her situation from the clinic that helped her get pregnant. I don't know anything about who helped her with fertitilty treatments but I do know that the Dr.s that took care of her during pregnancy and with birth came across her after she was already in her first trimester. I have to blame this entire situation on the mother. No women in her right mind who has 6 kids (not sextuplets by the way, 4 singles and a set of 2 year old twins), is single, living with her parents, and on welfare would go in to have fertility treatments to have more, even if she only MEANT to have one more. And the latest news, by the way, is that she is now seeking 2 millions bucks and a TV show deal with Oprah Winfrey. This lady is nuts.
In many parts of the world there are regulatory limits on how many embryos you can implant in one cycle of IVF (generally two or three). Either by the government or by the medical profession. I think the latter is more appropriate and would encourage the various state medical boards to consider such irresponsible, dangerous actions malpractice. Again, this doesn't apply to simple ovarian stimulation leading to the release of multiple eggs, which of course is harder for the doctor to control, but to artificial implantation.
Adoption Adoption Adoption.
From the article I read, the mother is in almost in financial ruin. Considering the hard economic times and her situation, she eventually will drive her and her parents into the poor house. It would be best for the kids and the mother for the kids to be adopted.
I read recently that she used a sperm donor also. So there is no father to help with these kids. According to the grandmother, her daughter has always been obsessed with having kids. IMO this woman is unstable beyond words...
it seems unfair that there are so many couples who can't have babies, but this nut case can pop them out like toaster strudel.
I hope that child welfare is involved here. She lives in a 3 bedroom house with her 6 other kids and her parents. It's just madness.
Is this any different in some ways, than the family who has 18 children? It's their choice. I do not agree with it either, but no one has the right to say too much...what if a woman had 18 abortions? I really do not understand if it was IVF, why they must implant so many embryos..why not two or three? Then instead of culling the embryos that took..it would be more realistic for the mother to carry them if she was against terminating. I DO think it is the fault of the fertility clinic...if they did not put the mother in the position to have to make that choice in the first place, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Some people DO believe that every embryo is a baby, a human being, and is more than a medical decision for them.
And no, unless they are abusive parents, they shouldn't give up their kids for adoption...gimme a break. There are people that have only one child who should never have reproduced....she should get help just like the thousands of other parents who have children willy-nilly without planning the future. It's only fair...be it three kids or 14.
Original Post by monarch777:
Is this any different in some ways, than the family who has 18 children? It's their choice. I do not agree with it either, but no one has the right to say too much...what if a woman had 18 abortions?
Honestly, monarch, I'm going to put this out there: I think it is morally better to have 18 abortions than to have 18 children that you can't take care of. There may also be an argument that even if you can take care of them, you would be worsening our overpopulation problem in an incredibly selfish way.
Just IMO and of course I would never force someone to have an abortion, or a selective reduction, or whatever. Which is why I'm mad at the doctors who implanted those embryos, not at the woman who bore them.
i completely agree, trust.
and i think that the ability to provide financially is actually pretty meagre justification for having more than two or three.
re: the implantation of so many embryos - she was just applying the principle of buying in bulk.
I think that either way...18 abortions or having 18 children....one should undergo a mental health screening somehow whenever there is a crazy amount of excess. I have three kids..and yeah...expensive. But-if you are going to implement a CHOICE....as in "Pro-Choice"....choice goes both ways. And yes, I agree that this is nuts.
Original Post by monarch777:
I think that either way...18 abortions or having 18 children....one should undergo a mental health screening somehow whenever there is a crazy amount of excess. I have three kids..and yeah...expensive. But-if you are going to implement a CHOICE....as in "Pro-Choice"....choice goes both ways. And yes, I agree that this is nuts.
Pro-choice definitely goes both ways, which is why I said I would never force someone to have an abortion or selective reduction. Medical ethics, however, would make me question implanting eight embryos in someone in the same cycle. I don't have the same issues with the doctors who delivered the babies (assuming they are not the same doctors), because once someone is pregnant they require and deserve medical care one way or the other, no matter how crazy they are.
Original Post by pgeorgian:
yeah, it's kind of telling that the woman who has 14 through IVF comes under such scrutiny and speculation about her mental health while the ones who have 18 and attribute it to god's will get a reality TV show worth millions.
True dat.
Original Post by seratuki:
I read recently that she used a sperm donor also. So there is no father to help with these kids. According to the grandmother, her daughter has always been obsessed with having kids. IMO this woman is unstable beyond words...
If this is true, it puts a new slant on things and I find it quite disgusting! Under these circumstances there is no way she would have got IVF nor would she have had multiple birth to this extent over here. Makes a mockery of the entire IVF system.
Original Post by seratuki:
This is where I read that....
And, of course, there's the issue that the cost of that pregnancy, delivery, and the newborn hospitalizations would have probably been enough to set up clean water infrastructure for about eight thousand children in the developing world.
This is not an argument for a specific course of action, just something to think about.
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