Cardio on an empty stomach for Fat Loss!

There is a lot of confusion on the topic of doing cardio on an empty stomach for fat loss. 

There doesn't seem  to be any scientific evidence as to whether or not doing cardio on an empty stomach is better or worse.    I have had continued success at fat loss for myself and my clients by recommending cardio on an empty stomach.  The reason this should be done is because what you are doing is burning fat by tapping into fat stores for energy.  

There is some concern that doing cardio on an empty stomach will cause your body to burn muscle.  Your body has at least 2 hours worth of energy from stored glycogen in the muscles and liver, as well unlimited fat reserves that provide fuel for your body.  Theoretically, You would have to burn through much of that glycogen before your body starts burning muscle for fuel. 

Moderate intensity cardio on an empty stomach for 30-60 minutes followed by a good meal should not result in burning any muscle.  There are reasons why you would not want to do weight training on an empty stomach (e.g., lack of energy to lift hard), but this does not apply to cardio.

 

*Sigh*

How many times do we have to kill this particular myth before it'll stay dead?

Perhaps even more important than the pre-workout meal is the old standard: breakfast. No this article isn’t part of a conspiracy by MABB (Mom’s Against Bad Breakfasts) to promote the importance of this meal. Just think about it: being essentially fasted for 8-10 hours is incredibly destructive for muscle -yes even if you eat cottage cheese before bed.
-The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths by Dave Barr

It's true that overweight individuals who do mild cardio on an empty stomach - and we're talking a 2-3 on the Scale of Perceived Effort here, a slow-to-medium walk will have a slightly different homeostasis than already-lean individuals. Their bodies will in fact spare muscle and burn fat. Well, at least if Dr.  Lonnie Lowery is correct

 But: that's not the kind of cardio you're talking about, is it. Moderate intensity cardio is a light jog or run - 6-8 on the SPE scale, yeh?

It just isn't a good idea for anyone to do that.

Breakfast skippers are fatties not only because they overcompensate at night, but also because they're damaging their metabolism on a daily basis. Basically, the body can begin to cannibalize muscle tissue during the night.

Since muscle is the primary determiner of your metabolic rate, skipping breakfast and staying in that muscle-wasting state until lunch leads to metabolism damage and fat gain... and usually a nice lunchtime binge and subsequent afternoon energy crash as well.

 -Chris Shugart

Use The Hierarchy of Fat Loss when it comes to structuring your exercises - simply put, if you aren't strength training with heavy weights at least three hours a week, you're not optimizing your results. Steady-state cardio is way down there on the list, as something to do if you've got the time. It shouldn't be the core component of a fat loss program though - there are much more efficient ways to go about it. You'll have better results, faster, if you start at the top of the hierarchy with weight training instead of down at the bottom with steady-state cardio.

I HATE doing cardio on an empty stomach. I almost never have the energy to make it through the session. 

I completely agree that breakfast is extremely important and would never advocate skipping breakfast.  I can only speak from my experience, which has proven results.  Wake up early, do cardio, eat a healthy breakfast.  I am also a strong proponent of weight training (I'm an NASM CPT).  Do this later in the day.  I personally lost 50lbs and am currently less than 5% body fat from the above strategy.

I never eat before I hike the steep trails near my house.  I will hike between 45 mins to an hour and half.  I come home and shower and then have a healthy breakfast.  I figure if I don't feel dizzie or weak it is ok.  If I wake up hungry I will eat a few walnuts prior to my hike.

Mm, it probably works - that's the thing about exercise. Everything works. Humans are both incredibly tough and incredibly fragile, and we can adapt to damn near anything - so I'm sure doing it that way works too.

 It's just that some things work better than others - and I'm not convinced that the strategy you've outlined is equally well suited for someone like yourself at 5% BF and an overweigth client at 30%.

 Oddly enough, pre-breakfast low-impact cardio may be about right for the overweight client if Dr. Lonnie Lowery has the right idea. For highly trained individuals such as yourself on the other hand, it's a very counterproductive thing if Barr has the right handle on things:

This is especially true in trained individuals like us, because we have higher rates of muscle breakdown (Phillips et al. 2002) The faster we can stop this catabolism once we wake up, the better. In fact, one could even argue that the amount of muscle protein spared from this first meal would be equal to, or even greater, than that gained by a post workout meal.
-The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths by Dave Barr

Meh - the rules change for guys like you: I think you're working out hard enough that what Barr outlines applies to you in its entirety.

 Right now I'm probably more in the Lowery end of things if I'm to give an objective assessment, but since I'm using Cosgrove's hierarchy I've decided to stick with strength training during the week and anaerobic interval training plus long-distance mountain hiking as my cardio on weekends.

 That said - I'm also not convinced that the average trainee wouldn't go running off doing far too intense and counterproductive cardio before breakfast. Low impact like in Lowery's article just doesn't feel like enough of a workout to someone who hasn't been presented with the whole picture.

 Though again, that's different for someone you've got under your personal supervision to make sure they're not overdoing it. (Argh. Have I confused you yet? I've certainly confused myself.)

Melkor -

What do you suggest eating before a workout?  I get to the gym between 5a /5:30an on a typical day, and can't deal with getting up even earlier to choke down a breakfast, and wait at least an hour to go.  I read the links you have posted on pre-WO nutrition, and I am on board *in theory*, but can't figure out the best way to put it into practice. 

As a female w/~19% bf (and trying to get it lower)... I do heavy lifting 4 days/wk and high intensity cardio/intervals at least 4-5 days/wk... what do you recommend?  One of the articles quoted "amino acids and sucralose" as the pre-WO nutrition given to the subjects in a study.  I'm not quite sure what that is, or how to get it (or make it?)... or if that would be right for me... I am serious about my training and making improvements in my nutrition to help get me to my goals.  Any advice would be really appreciated.  Right now, I'm exactly like julie above - I only eat if I wake up hungry, and in that case it's a small glass of almond or soy milk, a couple nuts, or MAYBE a 1/2 of a protein bar.  I think I do pretty well with my training, but think I could do better by improving my pre- (and post-)WO nutrition.

BTW - apologies to the OP for sort-of hijacking this thread : )

double post - sorry

Well, amino acids is the basic building blocks of protein - essentially pre-digested protein and mostly a very expensive way to drink your food if you look at something like Twinlabs' liquid amino fuel or other amino acid supplements. The thing about taking them appears to be that they're even more rapidly absorbed than whole proteins and this makes them better for post-workout nutrition since they reach your bloodstream the fastest.

 Since most protein supplements - outside of the cheapest Walmart junk - include at least some partially hydrolysed protein peptides I've understood that to mean that they're fast-acting enough for most purposes. Though from the sound of your schedule you might be in the class of people who could benefit from the even faster version.

 And the other thing they consumed was sucrose - or ordinary table sugar :) (Sucralose is the stuff in Splenda - I don't think that does anything for your insulin at all)

 From point two in the article, I'm getting that if your breakfast is something like a homemade protein shake or smoothie that would actually be the ideal pre-workout nutrition. It would be roughly twice as effective as drinking the same shake post-workout.

 Also, Eastside points out that getting the branched-chain amino acid Leucine in your post-workout nutrition gives a better insulin response and protein synthesis than carbs or carbs+protein. IIRC, the studies s/he pointed to showed that protein+leucine worked better at spiking your insulin than carbs did - and post-workout you do want that insulin spike. Again, most common protein supplements contain BCAA's, so while Olympic coach Charles Poliquin has his athletes practically inhaling BCAA tablets during a workout, anyone who isn't training for the Olympics will probably not find themselves working at a level where it makes much of a difference.

 But metabolisms are idiosyncratic - you need to experiment on yourself to figure out what works best for your body and workout schedule. Personally, from the difference it made when Bodyscience got me to try post-workout protein shakes, I'd start with having one for your pre-workout nutrition. I'm going to be trying that myself in light of that nutrition article - maybe a shake won't send me looking for the puke bucket like pre-workout solid food does :)

Thanks for the info... Is there a specific protein shake you're using for post-WO?  I must admit, I'm leaning toward just the straight aminos at this point, given my stomach's disdain for anything that resembles food at 4:45am.  I will give both a try, however, and see what works best.

Also - yes, I meant sucrose, not sucralose - the marketing companies are getting to me, it seems.

Finally, should I take from this comment: <<getting the branched-chain amino acid Leucine in your post-workout nutrition gives a better insulin response and protein synthesis than carbs or carbs+protein>> that it might be best to do the aminos pre and post-WO?

 I don't think the brand makes for much of a difference as long as you stay out of the lowest price bracket - the cheapest Chinese-produced generics you find in Walmart are almost certainly adulterated with maltodextrin or melamine since they're selling for less than bulk protein costs when you buy it by the ton. I don't see how it's possible to sell the real thing for less than the ingredients would cost, never mind the production costs on top of that...

 Anyway, outside of that caveat I think it's mostly a matter of personal preference - outside of the cheap imitations I haven't really seen anything that really sets any one producer apart; though Biotest would probably argue I should look again.

 Well, from the overall picture of pre-workout nutrition being more effective than the same intake post-workout, one would certainly think getting leucine pre-workout would also be good at least. I don't recall seeing anything specific on it one way or the other, but Poliquin probably has - so when he makes his athletes swallow a BCAA tab after each set in a program he described once, there's probably a very good reason for it.

 I think it's mostly a matter of experimentation to find out what works best for you though - you need to become the world's leading authority on yourself :)

Thanks again! I appreciate the advice!

Thanks again! I appreciate the advice!

melkor,

i hope this isn't too annoying, but could you recommend specific pre and post-workout foods/powders/whatever?  i'm really active.  i just started buying micellar milk from vitamin shoppe and have one about an hour after i work out.  should i switch that to before the workout and take the bcaa tablet after my workout?  i would guess i'm as active (albeit not as talented) as poliquin's trainees.

could you maybe give me a few names of things to try pre- and post workout to maximize muscle growth/maintenance and minimize muscle catabolism?  please?

Hey, no problem :)

Judging from the Dave Barr article, having the micellar milk before the workout and the BCAA post-workout makes sense - it's probably worth trying for a week or more and see how it affects the quality of your workouts and your overall progress. Though it's also worth noting that I'm still a bit confused over the best approach to peri-workout nutrition, so take this as a current-best-guess and hope that someone else with a better overall grasp stops by :)

 I think brand names and such is mostly a matter of preference, and I really haven't tried a huge range in the way of specific brands.

 that said, I'm using Optimum Nutrition 100% whey right now, mostly because I like the mixing qualities of their powder, not because they're anything special as far as mid-range protein goes. I tried wheyTech once, and it tasted about like drinking powdered chalk - pretty gritty.

 But the absolute worst crap I've ever had the misfortune to try was the Herbalife powder someone suckered my mom into buying - she gave it to me when she discovered that it took more than eating protein powder to get back into shape. Herbalife's powder mixed about as well as sand, felt like I was drinking gravel, and sat in my stomach like a lump of concrete. And it's soy-based, which I discovered was a very bad idea about four scoops into the tub - I've still got the stuff sitting in the kitchen just in case mom starts asking if I want to buy some more.

 Anyway - I like the flavour and mixing qualities of ON's product, and they're good quality for the price range, but as far as I can tell any brand in roughly that price bracket will do just as well - as long as you find something you can stand to drink.

i appreciate your suggestion, as well as your honesty about still being unsure about some of it.  i think i'll give it a go for a week:  micellar pre-workout and this optimum nutrition amino acid business.  since my morning workout is rather long, it will be good to see if i get better results.  other than the fact that i usually have 0 calories around my workouts (so this may increase overall calories if i'm not disciplined), this might be fun. 

any reason you chose the 100% whey over the bcaa 5000 powder?  are they equally as effective?

Mostly it was because I bought the new tub of protein two weeks ago and got introduced to the Dave Barr article yesterday - if I'd been aware of it while on my shopping trip I might have made a different choice :)

 It takes me about 1-1.5 months to work my way through a tub - or it did before I got clued in to the drinking-two-shakes thing anyway; next time out I'll probably give the BCAA version a try.

People taking cardio advice from melkor kill me... i've read a ton of his posts praising weights and bashing cardio. I know what has worked for me, I wake up and 10 mins later i'm on the treadmill and running 5 miles, then I have a banana and water, take a shower then have breakfast. I have lost almost 100lbs in less then 6 months and by lifting weights 3 to 4 times a week at night I have increased my muscle mass while consistently in a calorie deficiet. And my pics aren't with fancy lighting to make me look bigger and hide my stomach like melkor's. I"m sorry if that sounds harsh bro but you could speak to hardcore body builders and you are obviously into that but none of what you have read could tell me what has physically happened to me hasn't really happened.

People on the Biggest Loser show are a great example of people operating a deficit with calories and doing cardio plus lifting weights and losing lots of fat while gaining muscle. Your body doesn't just start to eat muscle and leave fat alone when fat is specifically created to be used as stored energy through tens of thousands or years of evolution.

 

Sorry, but that's my two cents. I agree with chmecray as his results are similar to mine and while some body builders here are going to get a great deal of help from you melkor I don't think it speaks to a majority of this site. Maybe i'm wrong...

"Breakfast skippers are fatties not only because they overcompensate at night, but also because they're damaging their metabolism on a daily basis."

 

I have been skipping breakfast for.... years and years (as well as taking in most my calories at night). Im not a "fatty" though... seem to keep losing weight / toning up...

As for the eating before workouts vs eating after workouts, im pretty sure it doesnt matter either way. I remember reading a test done with both ways from heavy body-builders, and they saw no differences between the different types of training (and this is from people who had been bulking and cutting for many many years... they know their bodies very well).

I agree with Archer's post.  I never eat before I practice power yoga first thing in the morning nor when I jog first thing after waking up.  Same thing when I use my elliptical trainer.  I eat soon after, usually a bowl of steel cut oats or egg white scramble.

Do what works for you.  If you need to eat before, then eat.  What works for one, may not work for another! 

Uh, which part of

Mm, it probably works - that's the thing about exercise. Everything works. Humans are both incredibly tough and incredibly fragile, and we can adapt to damn near anything - so I'm sure doing it that way works too.

sounds like bashing cardio? I've even come around to it probably not being a completely bad idea at a higher bf% :) Yes, I'm very fond of lifting and long-distance hiking, not so much a fan of running or biking which is why I try not to answer questions that involve them (without aknowledging my bias anyway - though it's more than possible I've been sloppy about that)

 And yes, like I said above: each person is an experiment of one - you need to become the world's foremost authority on you :)