Posts by elpinko

Original Post by smwhipple:

Give yourself the time between Christmas and the New Year to write out your thoughts and feelings. Sometimes the process of writing things down brings new twists to mind. Also, remember, that once you spring it on her, she's going to need some time to process it and then you're both going to need some time to work through it if you're truly doing it together. Separate bedrooms is a great idea so that you're not miserably sleeping together, but since you have kids, I'd keep any extra curricular activities out of the house.

As far as bi-sexuality goes, teaching your children that it exists and is not evil is a very good thing in my opinion just like teaching your children that there are other ethnicities other than your own, but your particular sexual orientation is none of anyone's business, including your children's unless you choose to make it their's. Do you really need your children to validate your choices and is it fair to ask them to? If you're content with your sexuality, then whether you choose to have bi-sexual relations with someone else or wild monkey sex with your wife truly shouldn't come into the discussion. Who, what, when, and where you're doing your thing is a personal matter between you and your partner(s).

I told my parents a long time ago that I just didn't need to know about their sex life and they didn't need to know about mine! It's mutually agreed that the details are private.

Fair enough point. God knows I don't want to know ANY details about my parents' sex life. But if I did in some point in the future start regularly seeing some guy, wouldn't it be easier on them if they had already known it was a possibility.  I agree with keeping intimate details of one's sex life private, but isn't letting your kids continue to assume you're straight kind of like lying to them, especially once they are old enough to understand the mechanics of sex and that there are all different kinds of love and couples and families?  I dunno. 

Maybe keeping it quiet for the time being is okay, so long as I really emphasize that LGBT love exists and that it's as normal as any other.  We lived in San Francisco for a while, and though I don't think they remember it, they celebrated Pride day at their elementary school, and there were "My 2 Daddies" type posters around.  I showed them the movie "Rent" and have told them that gay people like to date or marry a member of the same gender, and have tried to do it as nonchalantly as possible, like it's just another fact of life (which it is).  So hopefully, they're already pretty cool with it.

I'm also still unsure about the cohabitation thing.  On one level, I think it would be better for the kids to have some sort of stability and continuity, but on the other hand, I would still have to listen to her constant pissing and moaning about everything under the sun.  But to move out would mean more the rent, more utilities, even if I lived in the same neighborhood. The funny thing is, I really don't care that much about the privacy aspect or whatever.  I really am not in that much of a hurry to bring dates home.  I just don't know if I can't stand another year of the complaining and moodiness. Sometimes I come home from work, and I time how many minutes it is from when I get home until she starts bitching about something.  It's almost always less than five.  And if I try to count the number of times, I run out of fingers pretty quick.  Sometimes I think I should just secretly record her bitching and then play it back for her.  I honestly wonder if she realizes how relentlessly negative she is...

Harrison Bergeron is a classic short story that we all had to read in Junior High School, but I don't exactly see it coming true in our society, except maybe in the school system to a degree.  Besides that, wealth inequality has risen at an unprecedented pace for 30 years, with those at the top being more lavishly rewarded than ever while those at the bottom work longer and harder for less.

No, sorry, my biggest worry about contemporary America isn't that the playing field is "too even".

Original Post by dave98z3:

Hire a lawyer and have papers served to him stating you want a divorce. No matter what happens it wont be good. (my opinion)

It won't be easy, it will be painful, but it will be worthwhile, and good in the long run.  Staying with someone like that any longer would be much worse.

Original Post by clharr:

I will have to agree with others. There is no easy answer to this problem. Any answer is likely to be painful for all involved. But I do want to point something out. You keep saying that your wife is happy with things the way they are, but when you talk about what she is doing, you are not describing a happy woman. Happy people do not go to "spiritual advisors". People who are unhappy and have no idea of what to do about it go to them. It is also possible that the involvement in the church is a way of avoiding an unhappy home life. Certainly her constant bi*ching is not the behavior of a happy woman.

I would suggest therapy, but put less focus on sex. Talk about saving the marriage. If you can get past whatever problems you have and get the love and affection back into the marriage, you might not need to look outside. Tell her that you can't live like this anymore, that you two need to do something about the situation or you will have to leave. (Not bringing sex into the discussion will eliminate the pressure on you to perform if you don't want to) I think you will find she has similar feelings. Make an effort to fix things with her. If she refuses to go to therapy, then you can bring up an open marriage. If nothing else, you will look better in court.

Don't let your infatuation with the guy at work destroy your marriage or you will feel as stupid as any heterosexual who lets a fling with the office bimbo destroy his marriage. Reading your replies, I sometimes wonder if your interest in him isn't the main reason you are thinking about this.

RE her religion - she was religious before we got together. I did not come from a religious household, so I underestimated how strong a hold religion has on some people. I thought she would outgrow it. Yes, I was stupid and young. Yes, she has something of a depressive personality, and her parents are negative as well. I don't blame her for feeling how she feels much of the time, but it gets exhausting having to deal with it all the time year after year.

RE therapy - I don't see how we could possibly do it without addressing sex since it is at the root of so much of our problems. We've already been avoiding this elephant in the room for most of our marriage, and I personally think it's time to stop skirting around it.

RE my infatuation - It's kind of a valid question. I noticed him this summer and he awakened a lot of feelings in me that I had put on the back burner for many years.  But rather than him being my reason for wanting to stray, I think my thoughts of him are that much stronger because of my frustration with this marriage, like I'm just focusing all my thoughts on this kind of nice, romantic fantasy that will probably remain fantasy since he lives far away and is very likely straight and/or not interested. He's anything but a bimbo, though. He's a brilliant man, and even if he was interested, I'm really not anywhere near good enough for him.

All that being said, the one thing that has really sunk into my head from this thread is that infidelity is not something to be taken lightly, and I need to do more thought and work on the marriage before going through with anything.

"the less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine"

-from the Indigo Girls song Closer to Fine

Original Post by skinny_kitty:

This post struck more than just a few chords with me. I've been cheated on by a man, with another man.

Since then, he married a woman who is a homophobe. When I read this post, I actually wondered if you were Steven! It's the same story.

And this is how I see it from my angle. Steven is absolutely miserable. He isn't connected to his wife anymore because she's not interested in an intimate relationship at this point.

However, they don't have the financial means to do anything about it. Divorce is so expensive in so many ways -- and that's before you factor in the two rents, two households, etc. You'd have to have a place big enough for your kids when they come to visit -- that means paying for space that would be empty half the time (or more). I know in Steven's case that were he to leave, his wife would have to go to work, they'd need to look into day care, she'd never make enough to live on and he'd end up garnering his wages which would mean HE wouldn't have enough to pay rent anywhere else. Financially, it's an impossible scheme.

Therapy just happens to cost upwards of $75 an hour. That's $300 a month. Where are you supposed to find that kind of money when you're raising kids in this economy? There are public services that offer counselling, but you'd probably have to hold your tongue for 6 months and wait patiently for the next available counsellor.

It's easy to get onto a moral high horse when the shoes you're currently wearing fit just fine, but unless you've had to go barefoot, it's a difficult concept to grasp (yes, I just intoned what you think I just did -- walk a mile in this guys shoes before going on about "the right thing").

What bugs me about this situation (and Steven's) is that the kids intuitively KNOW that something's wrong and it's setting them up for how they'll react in life later on. They don't need to know the details to know that there's unresolved tension and animosity.

Another thing that nags at me is my own personal paranoia, HIV and AIDS. Condoms break. It freaks me out. I have a close friend dying of AIDS and it is such a horrible nighmare.

You want your kids to have a healthy dad at least until they're adults, too.

So, the above said, I would say that laying it on the line for your wife is your only way to go. I'm 100% with trustwomen on this. She doesn't have a whole lot of choice in the matter unless she wants to go waitress for $3 an hour and live through horrible financial hardship. She's going to have to let go of you and I think once she does, you'll be a happier person, your kids will feel it and a whole lot of tension will leave the house.

I wouldn't however, tell her that you want to go out and have relationships with men. This would certainly count against you in an eventual court case if she decides to get evil on your butt (it happens a lot). Stay ultra discreet, ultra "safe" and breathe a big sigh of relief.

I appreciate your understanding of the financial aspects. I make just under 40K/yr right now and my wife makes about 5K at a part-time job. In the many years of our marriage she has never made a real financial contribution (and yeah, I do an equal share of the housework) And a couple of years ago we were getting by on significantly less. It was not easy getting here, and yet there was a poster that glibly said "make more money." Easier said than done.

As for the STDs, I feel like a broken record here, but I will not be doing anal. period. And if I got into any outside relationships, I WOULD NOT have sex with the wife. I don't think my wife would be at much risk from the little pecks we exchange.

The last part of your advice confused me a bit. trustwomen suggested I tell her that I was thinking of going outside the marriage for sex, but then you said not to tell her that. Or do you mean just the "with men" part? Because you think the court would frown on an affair with a man more than one with a woman, or use of prostitutes?

And then there's the guy at work. Every time I text him or whatever I feel more infatuated. It's so stupid. Even though we just talk about work things and small talk. I wish he would come to town. He is sexy but I don't even care that much about the sex. (Because truth be told, I CAN take care of that by myself if need be.) just to hold someone and be held and feel good for a change...

By the way, I am not Steven and I have never cheated on a partner.  My wife is not exactly what I'd call a homophobe. She is just somewhat ignorant, paired with being insensitive to my feelings.

Like once she said "I don't want our son to grow up to be gay." To which I replied that I want him to grow up to be whoever he is without worrying that it might disappoint us and to be happy.  I don't think she even realized how insulting that kind of thing is to a whole huge number of people.  I still don't think she grasps that gay people are the same as normal people because they ARE normal people.  It is NORMAL for gay people to be gay.  It's no more a defect than blue eyes, IMO. It's just something that happens.

Original Post by trustwomen:

elpinko, I thought of a way you could decide whether it is OK for you to cheat.

Sit your wife down and say:

"I'm sexually unsatisfied and I am pretty sure you don't want me anyway. I'm at the point where I am thinking about going elsewhere for sex. So here's my question to you: If I were to find my relief with someone else, would you want me to tell you about it? Take a couple of minutes to think about it. I'll be in the next room. Give it some serious thought and when you've reached a decision, come tell me. We will never have to discuss this again."

If her comment of "I wish you'd never told me" is actually indicative of a personality trend, she will look like you just stabbed her in the heart, sit in stunned silence for a while, then come into the next room and say "You're gonna do what you're gonna do, but don't tell me".

And that, elpinko, is your official permission to cheat. If this happens, cheat carefully, because she could file for divorce and use proof of your cheating as ammunition in a custody battle, so make sure she doesn't have any proof. Prepare to lie to the judge if necessary.

If she says "I'd want you to tell me about it" or "I don't want you to have sex with anyone else, period", then I'm afraid that you need a divorce. Your kids will be OK in the end - it is better to be from a broken home than to live in one.

Good luck. And DO NOT do what you want to do, which is lie to yourself and believe that it is "better" to simply cheat on her. "But it seems so logical", you say, like a 5-year-old trying to rationalize why the candy is good for them. You are wrong, and it would be immoral and completely unfair to the mother of your children to do so: deal with it.

Fair enough.  That's more or less what I've decided to do.  I am going to wait until after the holidays though.  I'll never hear the end of it if I dump this on her right now...

Original Post by octo-luv:

dont delude yourself with STD's. the most common, hpv that most men dont even know they have (if they do), is the cause for cervical cancer. uidn't you take sex ed in high school, they made sure we knew all about those. not to mention other unpleasant std's that condoms do not protect against as they can be transferred just from skin contact.

im sorry it just sounds like you both would be happier apart. the kids will get over your divorce, i was one of them & i know plenty of them. what you are suggesting could hurt them even more than a clean break.

but with that said, sounds like you live in your own world so good luck, a hard lesson teaches the best i guess.

No matter what I do I guess it will be hard...

Another worry is that she would get custody of the kids because the mom usually does, even though I'm more of the parental type of the two of us. Then there would be nobody to stand in the way of her totally inundating the kids in that religion all the time. I'm afraid she'd indoctrinate them even more than she does and push them to go to one of the religion's colleges, rather than a mainstream university, which of course would be terrible for their future career.

But maybe this is just me making more excuses. Even divorced, I suppose we could work through that. I guess another thing is that with divorce there is a certain amount of swallowing of pride I would have to do - to admit publicly that I screwed up.

I have to say, though, that talking about this really makes me feel better.  I really appreciate all the comments, whether tough or indulgent because they seem to be based on compassion and not judgmental.  I knew CC would be the right place to post this question because the people here are the coolest cross section of US society.  I guess doing battle with our weight for so many years gives a lot of us a healthy dose of empathy.

Okay, I have to take off and will not be able to check the thread again until tomorrow. I genuinely appreciate all the input thus far, even the toughlove advice.

Before going, things I might ought to have mentioned but left out of the OP:

Although I said I don't have any prospects, maybe I should mention that I am very infatuated with a man at the place that I work. I did not mention him because 95% of the time he works in one of our offices hundreds of miles away, and because I have no idea of his orientation or if he'd be interested, so the chances of it developing into anything are pretty slim.

Original Post by jules817:

and you need to make sure you know your true motives here. is the problem really that she is denying you sex, or is it that you miss being with men and are looking for justification to go out and do that?

This is an excellent question. Certainly not one that hasn't crossed my mind.  It's not like when you turn 18 they give you a card with a Kinsey scale on it that says exactly where you fall.  My preferences are all over the place and it can be confusing, and more than a decade of JUST ONE THING can make the other thing look more enticing. 

So rather than worrying about my motivations, I think I just need to think in terms of whether or not I can stay fulfilled in this marriage if we get it back on track, or not.  

I suppose another choice would be seeing a (female) prostitute, but that is essentially masturbating into a person, the way I see it, and there is the problem of disease risk again...

Original Post by lilsammi23:

Ok, so you want to get yourself all set with another option before dumping your wife out of the blue because she has no clue there is something seriously wrong with her marriage?

Sorry if that sounds really harsh, but seriously, the way that came out sounds incredibly insensitive to me. Yes, it's a hard thing to talk about with her, but really, she deserves at least that.

Jules - I agree with you to a point. He NEEDS to talk to her. She should know that there is something wrong before ANYTHING else gets done.

I just never think of cheating as a valid option. I'd much rather get dumped than cheated on, no matter what the circumstances.

If you talk to her she can at least make the decision herself to leave the relationship if she knows there's a good possiblity you will no longer be faithful.

No, I'm saying that I think that's what my mom did and I can understand that motivation now. I'm not seriously contemplating doing that.  I was thinking of cheating, but not anything serious. 

But the overwhelming response seems to be that I should sit down and talk to her and get into some stuff that may be a bit painful if we are going to make it work, whether I want to stay or go.

Now I guess that I need to sit down and think about if I really do want to stay or go.  I feel like if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have married her, but then there are the kids. How am I supposed to NOT consider them in the equation? Sure, if we had no kids, I would be outta here.  I love her, but yes, she is a very negative person and makes me feel bad all the time about everything. I feel like she blames me for all her problems, and even when she's not blaming me, she's still complaining - about work, her childhood, whatever. It's grueling. 

She honestly didn't seem this way at first.  Sometimes I feel like it's MY fault she's become this way.  When we were dating and I told her I was bisexual she was like "You shouldn't have told me that, I didn't want to know that kind of thing about you."  I felt like I was doing the right thing by being open, but she didn't want to know.  And she still doesn't want to know.  Wants to pretend.  When we talk about gay people or GLBT issues, it always has to be like it's "them" and they have nothing to do with "us".  Is this not weird?

Original Post by lilsammi23:

Original Post by sandy_lang:

"I suppose I would be jealous if she fooled around though, and would prefer she approach it honestly and let me go first."

Well I think you have your answer there....

Bingo.

It's just scary wondering how she will react when I confront her with it.  She can be pretty emotional.  And I guess I'm not sure what I want either. I just feel like it shouldn't be this constantly hard.

My mom cheated on my dad before divorcing him and leaving him for another guy and it was very hard on our family then.  But at the same time, going through this, I feel a lot less judgmental of my mom now.  She wanted to be sure she had a sure thing lined up before she left my dad and didn't want to be a middle-aged woman all alone.  I totally understand not wanting to leave a bad situation for nothing.

Original Post by sandy_lang:

I agree soglia... could write a book on this one.

elpinko... sounds like you have already decided what you are going to do, and you know it's "wrong", but are looking for one person to agree with you to make it "right", at least in your head. I don't think you are going to find it here, unless there are some unfeeling members of our gendre reading this. It sure as hell won't be a woman.

One question: What would you want your wife to do if YOU were the sexually uninterested one?

I don't think I have decided at all, although I was leaning one way at the beginning of this.  The overwhelming number of responses are telling me I was wrong, so I do think it deserves some serious consideration.

As for your second question, not sure how to answer it. Like if I was impotent?  Because I have always been "interested". 

I suppose I would be jealous if she fooled around though, and would prefer she approach it honestly and let me go first.

Original Post by soglialoro:

I am surprised that she married you if she was so religious and she knew you were bi-sexual..

Her religion is unusual in that it is not dogmatic and doesn't have proscriptions about sex.  The conflict is only from the fact that she is consumed with the religion all the time and it detracts from other activities.  Her problem with bisexuality is strictly her own feelings about it, not the religion.

To her credit, she has made some progress in those years and has come to understand LGBT people as more than just the caricatures she grew up believing in.

Even if we somehow worked this out, I think I would want to tell my kids about it when they're old enough because if I didn't, they would probably find out from a friend or family member eventually.

Original Post by soglialoro:

I think people are afraid to touch this post.

I have a hundred things I could say but I keep deleting them.

I don't know. I have to think.

I was scared to post it. In retrospect it's easy to say I shouldn't have married this person. Maybe I could have made it work with a more open-minded type person, but at the time my judgment was clouded by infatuation and love.  I still love her, but am just not in love with her anymore.  I feel like I'm screwed whatever I do, but the way things have been the last couple of years has been hell.  We are friendly on this certain level, but without the intimacy anymore I feel so LONELY.  Even though I am surrounded by my family all the time.