Forum Topic Date Replies
Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Apr 03 2009
00:18 (UTC)
105

Howdy friends!  I did OK in March,   but am looking forward to better numbers in April.

April 1: 322 

Weight tossed in March: 8 pounds

Total weight tossed: 32 pounds

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Mar 21 2009
19:43 (UTC)
190

I have been very busy Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, so I thought I would come and post today. Sorry that I was MIA. Wednesday, I sat in doctors offices for 6 hours that day and ran errands for an hour, so by the time I got home, I went to bed and collapsed. Then on Thursday I had to work the entire day. I had to be at work at 9 am and didn't get back home until after 5 pm, then I fixed some ribs and put them in the oven and then my son and his wife came and brought their dog for us to babysit for 10 days, and after they left I collapsed again. Then yesterday, I stayed in bed recuperating until about 11:30 am, and then had to get up and do a little cleaning before the "chair man" came and so after he left I didn't do much else either, so here I am. Today is MY day. At least, that is what my plan is, LOL, but we all know how that can change.

OK, so here is an update.....My echocardiogram was good and the doctor, who I went to school with and know very well, assured me that at this time he is 99% sure that I do NOT have pulmonary hypertension. He said that if he thought there was any chance that I did, that he would do a cardiac cath in a heartbeat (excuse the pun) and he just doesn't see any indication of it at all from the echo. He says from all the tests done, he sees no heart involvement in my illness at all. He did order hydrotherapy to be resumed. He thinks that when I got so sick that I was not able to be up hardly at all and my body deconditioned and that that is part of my problem. So that is why he wants me to do hydrotherapy in a controlled environment. First he wanted me to do pulmonary rehab, but then he decided that the water exercises would probably be better for me. He said that if after I have conditioned better and lost considerable weight, if I am still having the same trouble that I have been having, then we would probably do a cardiac cath to do more work up. I trust him, so I am fine with his decision.

Update on chair.....My regular chair man had a death in the family and so he was unable to come yesterday, but he did send a colleague of his to bring out a rear wheel drive chair for me to try. We found that a rear wheel drive chair will NOT work in my house. The turns are to tight in my house for a rear wheel drive chair. So I will definitely be getting a mid-wheel drive chair exactly like the one that I have been using, except with a rehab seat probably instead of a van seat. The rehab seat is recommended because there is a lot more you can do with it to accommodate the person's needs. With the van seat, what you see is what you get. While I like the looks of a van seat better, it makes more sense to get one that can be changed to meet my needs. The rehab seat looks more like a regular wheelchair, so I like the looks of a van seat better, but I need to get what will work better for me down the road. Right now the van seat would work fine, but he tells me that the rehab seat may be better even now, because of the different cushions they can get to make my sitting more comfortable.He was going to take the chair that I have been using and leave me a different loaner chair for me to use until my own chair comes in, but he didn't at that time have one with the right size seat, so he was kind enough to leave me with the chair that I have been using all along. I was very pleased with my visit with him.

Praise regarding work.....I had been asked to work on thursday so that the program manager could take a mini vacation. I was a little bit leary of it because it was a day that one of the clients was supposed to be off of work and she is difficult for me to work with me due to my disabilities. So I told her that if she sent that particular client to work that day, that I would be more than glad to come and work in her place that day. She assured me that she would go to work that day. So, after a huge wednesday at the doctors offices, I was really concerned with having to work a full day because of how much pain I was in then and how exhausted I was. So my daughter Amber, prayed for me that God would give me strength and that everything at work would go smoothly. So Thursday, I show up at work, and guess what I saw when I got there? My wheelchair client sitting in her recliner. My first feelings were exasperation. Then the Lord said, "You all prayed, and asked me to take care of things, so trust me." So I said, "OK, Lord, you are so right. I trust you Everything will be just fine." So I asked the staff that I was relieving, to tell me why that client was there and not at work. It turns out that she had to go to the ER the night before and that she had cellulitus in her foot and had to stay home from work. And to make it worse, she said that the client was not able to put any weight on that leg in order to transfer from chair to wheelchair or on to the toilet or bed, because of the pain. Keep in mind that all this time I am saying to the Lord, that I trust Him and know it will all work out. Then just to make matters more interesting, the other staff informed me that the wheelchair client's toilet was plugged up and she could not get it unplugged. So she was leaving that for me too. (I think God has a sense of humor, don't you?) But it was absolutely amazing what God did for me. I went in there, took a snake to the toilet and unplugged it in two minutes, which is usually an impossibility with that clients toilet. Then I got my scooter out of my car and brought it in. And the entire day, my client had NO accidents of bowel and bladder, which is a miracle in itself, and just to show me how faithful He is, God allowed her to transfer all day with NO pain, putting full weight on her foot all day. GOD IS AWESOME!!!!!! It was a great day! I am usually in so much pain when I work all day and so extremely exhausted when I am there, and when I left I was tired, but just like anybody else might be, not like I usually am. Did God come through for me or what? He never ceases to amaze me! He shows me He loves me every day. He is probably showing you that every day too. Are you seeing it?

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Mar 21 2009
04:31 (UTC)
193

Sun, I totally understand what you were saying.  When I am at that point where I want to binge,  I am not likely going to contact my friend to keep me from doing it.  Good thought though and it probably works for a lot of people, but not me.

I am still doing pretty good with my eating plan.  I think I have lost at least a couple more pounds this week, so I am pleased.

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Mar 12 2009
16:19 (UTC)
236

Good morning all!  I decided to get aggressive with my weight loss efforts after visiting the doctor and him telling me that I need to seriously consider bariatric surgery and specifically gastric by-pass.  So March 5th I weighed in at home at 332 pounds.  Today,  I weighed in, one week later, at 319.  That is 14 pounds this week. YAY!!!!!

Mikey, my husband is 6'1" also and the nurse practicioner who has been working with him would like his final weight to be 200 -210 pounds.

Kindal, is it possible that you have CFS, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome?  That would account for all of the symptoms that you named.

1.    Do you have a nickname? - Pamarooni by my best friend
2.    What State do you live in? - Missouri
3.    What is your favorite color? - Purple or Red
4.    What kind of pets do you have? - 4 pound Pomeranian named Tipper
5.    What kind of music do you like listening too? - Christian music is my favorite, and I also enjoy Country
6.    What kind of vehicle do you have or drive? - Nissan Altima
7.    What is your favorite store you like to shop in? - Online
8.    Name something you are not? - cold-hearted
9.    Where is your favorite place to eat? - Chili's, Applebee's, or Chinese
10.  What favorite place would you like to be at right now? - My favorite place depends on my mood.  I have no particular favorite place.  On my bicycle riding 20 miles on a nature trail and on the racquetball court used to be my favorite places.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Mar 05 2009
12:28 (UTC)
286

March 1st weigh in: 330    :>(

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Mar 02 2009
02:14 (UTC)
320

Just checking in to say hello and let you know that I am still alive. I haven't been here because I have not been doing very well physically. I haven't weighed yet. I will do that tomorrow morning, but I wanted to check in. Thanks to a couple of you who sent me messages. I appreciated that!

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 13 2009
18:58 (UTC)
508

Chris, the power chair man just left. Guess what? I had been trying to figure out who to go through for the chair, and it turns out that this guy is a Christian and goes to a charismatic church here in town that I am quite familiar with. I found out that he was a christian when I asked him how long it would take to get the chair and he said, "I see your shelf of Bibles there, and so I can tell you that I don't get in a hurry, but spend some time waiting on the Lord for answers ..." I was so excited when he said that, and so we talked about Christian things for a while.

So they are going to bring over a chair for me to try over the weekend and then next week on Tuesday or Wednesday, he is going to come back and take measurements and stuff and then send forms over to my doctor. Then when the doctor returns the forms to him, he will send in the appropriate paperwork to the insurance. After they give a predetermination, then he will give me the chair and a lift. YAY! I also found out that there is a possibility of being able to get a lift paid for too, even though it is not a covered item. Chris would just have to send that information on the lift through to the case management department of the insurance. Then they would consider it. So please pray with me about these things, that God would continue to work out all the details.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 13 2009
01:54 (UTC)
514

Way to go Candice!  7.5 pounds is awesome!

Gracie,  sounds like a neat program that you have there at work.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 12 2009
20:18 (UTC)
519

For those of you who are not familiar with the chemical stress test, and even for those who are, I will tell you how the morning went.....

I arrived at Cardiology at 7:45 am. They shortly took me to their IV infusion Room, where they started an IV. Then a little after 8 am, I was wheeled into their nuclear medicine lab, where they gave me a medicine of some kind, and left me there for a few minutes, waiting for the medicine to circulate in the blood stream. Then they put me up on the nuclear medicine table where they took pictures of the heart at rest, which took about 16 minutes. Then they wheeled me into the stress test lab, where they took my resting blood pressure and then injected my IV with Dobutamine drip. Then the "fun began". After about 5 minutes my heart started beating very hard and my heartbeat kept getting faster. They had to keep giving me dobutamine until they could get my heart rate up to 144. After they had given me 50 cc of dobutamine, then they gave me .25 mg of atropine to get the dobutamine to raise my heart rate up more. Finally it hit 147, shortly after the atropine was given. Then they shut off the IV and took another blood pressure, which they had been taking all the way through it. Then I had to sit there for another 15 minutes or so, to wait for my heart rate to slow back down to 100. During this whole time, they were taking a continuous EKG. After I was finished there, they told me to go and have a big greasy breakfast. They said that was the only time the cardiologist would tell me to have a big greasy breakfast, but it was important that I did that this morning to clean out the liver and kidneys of the other chemicals. That was about 9:45 am and I was to go have breakfast and return to them at 11:00 am. So we went to a place called Mel's Diner and I had Country Fried Steak with gravy, 2 eggs, Hash Browns, and a biscuit and gravy, and lemonade. Then I returned to the Clinic at 11:00 am where they took me back into the Nuclear Medicine lab to take repeat pictures of the heart. That took about 16 minutes again for the pictures, and I left the clinic at about 11:45 am. Then I came home and crashed for a while. I think that my doctor will get the results of the stress test either tomorrow or Monday.

Also, my doctor did approve a power chair for me, and the company that I got the scooter from is coming tomorrow morning for their home visit to take measurements and do all of the preliminary stuff before I can get the chair. I am so excited about that. And not only that, I found out that I could get a very badly needed lift for my car, in order to transport either my scooter or power chair, and I could finance it through them and get both items at once. That made my day! That would mean no more heavy lifting getting my scooter in and out of the car and putting it together and breaking it apart. YAY! I am so thankful to the Lord for His working these things out for me. And I thank you for all the prayers!

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 12 2009
00:35 (UTC)
526

Hi everybody! Just poking my head in for a minute on my way to the bed. I worked today, which was hard. In fact, I worked Sunday morning, all day Monday, and today, and it is really really hard to work, but it did go easier than usual, because I decided to take my scooter there. My scooter is too big to use in my house, but in my clients' house it works fine. That helped a lot and showed me just how much I need a power chair for my house. So I have been talking to the doctor's office and my doctor has approved an order for a power chair. And my insurance, even though I already have a scooter, will cover 85% of the costs of a power chair, as long as the doctor can show medical necessity for it. Do ya think that not being able to breathe when I walk is enough necessity? So, please include me in your prayers that everything will work out smoothly to get the power chair. If everything goes well, I could have it within 2 weeks. It would sure improve my quality of life as far as activities of daily living are concerned.

One more thing....My chemical stress test is at 7:45 am CST tomorrow morning, and I am really kinda apprehensive about it. I have had two in the past, and one of them was absolutely horrible. Then they did it with different chemicals the second time and it went better, so I am nervous about it.

Well, I am really feeling pretty badly right now, so I need to not stay on the computer any longer, but I did want to come in and tell you all to keep on keepin' on, hold onto the Lord's hands. He has a great plan for you!

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 08 2009
13:14 (UTC)
567

Well,  I am glad to report that the first week of February I tossed 5 pounds. YAY!

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 06 2009
20:17 (UTC)
584

Just a humorous anecdote for the day:

I just had to have the animal control specialist come to my house to remove a bird from inside my house.  I did manage to get it trapped into my den,  so it wasn't hard for the man to get hold of it and take it outside.  It sure startled me though when I was laying down and I heard my blinds rattle.  I knew there shouldn't be any air coming in to make them rattle,  and it happened several times.  Then all of a sudden I saw something fly across the room and land on my clock radio.  That was just a tad unsettling.  I love birds,  but the only one I want in my house is my cockatiel.  So my daughter tried to figure out how to get it out of my room and all of a sudden it came flying right past her into the den.  So she closed the door and I called animal control.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 05 2009
18:54 (UTC)
598

Howdy ya'll!  I am still among the living.  Last night was a rough night,  trying to get comfortable,  where I didn't have such terrible pain,  and I could breathe.  Even with my C-Pap on,  I was still having trouble breathing.  I did finally get to sleep and slept well.  Today,  I am still out of breath with any exertion at all,  and I have my pain issues as usual,  but not as bad as last night.  I am looking forward to my weigh in tomorrow,  as I had a sneak peak and saw that I had indeed lost some weght. YAY!  And that was without any exercise.  But it was also without any popcorn LOL.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 04 2009
00:03 (UTC)
618

No,  I'm not feeling any better yet.  I did get a call from the doctor's office a little while ago.  She said that my B12 level is low and I am to get a B12 injection once a month.  My sed rate is high,  showing an inflammatory process going on in my body.  She is not going to do anything with that yet,  until she gets the results of my stress test,  and the report back from the radiologist about my chest x-ray.  She did get the blood levels back on the test to see if there is any heart damage at this point,  and it shows that there is NOT any heart damage,  but she said that it does not mean that there is not something going on with the heart now,  just no previous damage.  She also said that she is going to change my diabetic medicine a little bit.  Change it to Avandimet,  from Avandia.  I am to keep using my insulin as it is. So,  that is all the report I have so far. So tomorrow morning,  I am going to go get my first B12 injection,  then just wait until I get my stress test done on the 12th,  and get all the rest of the test results in.  I have spent the majority of the day in bed,  and it hurts just laying in bed,  all over my body and my chest included.  I can't seem to get comfortable anywhere that I am.  I don't mean to be whining or complaining,  because,  heck,  I have it a lot better than some people.  I am thankful for what I do have,  and for God's presence in my life.  He is awesome and worthy of praise!

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 03 2009
02:12 (UTC)
636

Thank you all for your warm thoughts and prayers!

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 02 2009
19:30 (UTC)
655

Thanks for all your concern.  It means a lot to me. Well I just got home from seeing the doctor.  She did an EKG,  a Chest X-ray,  a pulmonary test,  and some blood work.  It appears that my heart is somewhat enlarged and possibly diminished blood volume to the heart.  There is scarring on the lungs,  but no  large amount of fluid in the lungs.  She scheduled me for a chemical stress test for February 12th.  Until then,  I am not to exercise at all. I feel lousy,  so now I am going to go to bed.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 02 2009
13:09 (UTC)
673

Can we talk? I am concerned about something. I try not to mention my health very often,  but I feel like my health is deteriorating even more. Just walking across the room is such a chore for me anymore. Doing anything is a chore. I am short of breath no matter what i do, and my chest aches. I wonder how much time I have left.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Feb 01 2009
17:36 (UTC)
694

Good job everybody!  Lots of weight being tossed around here.  Congratulations!

FEB 1st Weigh In:  320 lbs

That is 8 lbs tossed this month and 34 lbs overall.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 26 2009
20:33 (UTC)
776

Hi Kristy! Welcome to the group. Glad to have you with us.  As far as the cheese,  I have never had it.  I have heard people talk about how good it is,  but don't know if they even sell it here where I live.  I have never seen it.  So someone else will have to answer that question.  But anyway,  welcome aboard!

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 25 2009
15:34 (UTC)
787

I didn't exercise at all the last two days because of my health,  but I decided this morning before too many days went by without exercising,  to try to do the bike.  So I cranked out 30 minutes on my stationary bike at home,  the one with the arms that move.  That makes it so much harder,  but I do feel like I am getting a full body workout when I use that one.  It took me several times to get to the 30 minutes,  but I persevered and made it! YAY! So now,  I am going to traumatize my shower (it is shocked when it sees me naked), and then I am going to reward myself by going to church.  I hope all of you have a wonderful and healthy day today!

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 24 2009
20:47 (UTC)
792

Sun,  that is precisely what my program calls for.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 24 2009
16:15 (UTC)
799

Sun,  in that case,  I think that I am basically doing the south beach diet,  from what I have heard from you in the past,  and from what you are telling me now about the fruits and carbs.  If mine isn't the same,  it is very similar.

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 24 2009
05:15 (UTC)
806

Sun,  I thought you weren't allowed to have much fruit on the South Beach Diet.  I would definitely miss my fruit,  but sometimes I eat it before a meal too,  because if I eat it after,  I seem to have the munchies after that.

Yes,  I am loving the 9 pound loss,  I just hope it stays gone.  I seem to be going up and down a lot.  And I haven't had any popcorn now for several days. So that nine pound loss was even while I was eating popcorn.  Doesn't that seem odd to you all?  Makes me think I should keep eating it. LOL

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 23 2009
19:18 (UTC)
809

Great encouragement going on from one to the other.  I like seeing that!

I am happy to report that I tossed out 9 pounds this week.  That makes up for a bad week last week.

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 22 2009
05:56 (UTC)
828

Denise, have you tried shaking up what you eat a little bit.  Maybe the types of foods are working against you. I don't know what your meal plan looks like,  but if you could give us an idea what you usually eat,  perhaps we would have some suggestions for tweaking it to your advantage.

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 22 2009
03:12 (UTC)
831

Well,  today I went to the YMCA with Glen.  I rode 10 minutes on the exercise bike first.  It took me 5 times to get the 10 minutes,  but I did it.  Then I used the weight machines for the next 50 minutes.  I used 10 machines,  doing 3 sets of 12 reps on each machine.  I didn't rest hardly at all between sets,  just long enough to catch my breath,  so I kept my pulse up pretty much the whole hour.  A couple of the machines I know people had to have been giggling if they saw me try to get onto them.  One was the abductor.  I really had a hard time getting my legs into place without wrapping my oxygen hose around me and the equipment too.  Finally I succeeded.  I stayed there until I got all three sets done.  People were just going to have to wait.  I could only do that act once.  Then getting onto the adductor machine was also quite a sight for the same reason.  Even my getting onto the stationary bike was not a pretty site.  I really have a hard time getting up onto the seat.  I can't lower the seat,  because then my knees would bend too much and my knees just don't do that.  The rest of the machines I didn't have too much trouble using.  So,  while I am sure it was entertaining for some of the buff guys standing around,  hey,  at least I did it,  right?   So,  now I am going to relax and hope I can sleep tonight without too much pain.

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 21 2009
03:42 (UTC)
842

Lord, I pray for Norma Jean,  that you would lift her spirit,  bring comfort to her and fill her spirit with your peace and your joy,  in the name of Jesus!

Hang in there Norma Jean!  I'm rooting for you!

Well,  I was able to pat myself on the back today.  I rode the exercise bike for 15 minutes,  then rested for 2 1/2 minutes,  then rode for another 15 minutes.  This was not the recumbent bike,  but it was my stationary bike at home,  that the arms get worked out also.  Whew,  am I tired and sore.  But I did it and for that I am thankful.

Now I am waiting for my supper to get done cooking.  I am having Baked Tilapia,  Roasted Green Beans,  and Brown Rice with Mushrooms and Onions.

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 20 2009
15:28 (UTC)
855

Pen,  I am glad that you clarified that.  I was wondering how fast 5.5 km/h was in mph,  so now I know.  Thank you.  I used to do 3.5 mph when I was healthy,  but now I am doing good to go 1.5 mph.  Oh, well,  progress,  not perfection.

Could somebody please tell me what train was it that ran me over?  I don't know how much exercise I am going to do today.  I'm thinking that I should do something,  but right now I can barely move as it is.

Confession:  popcorn got its claws into me again.  That has always been an ongoing problem for me.  I will be "clean" for a few weeks or months,  and then I have one bag of popcorn,  and I am addicted again.  Then it is not unusual for me to have 2 or 3 bags of popcorn a day.  I need you all to hold me accountable to break this addiction once again.

Other than the popcorn,  I am still eating healthy except for Sunday morning and Sunday night.  I got called in to work both of those times and needed to quickly get something to eat,  so I went through the drive thru.  Not healthy choices either,  and poor portion control.


So,  now that I have confessed to how bad I have been,  I will tell you something positive.  I am in a "bootcamp" during the month of January on another site,  and Sunday I did the 10 minute Cardio bootcamp video which was beginners kickboxing.  I did the whole video,  but had to sit down for 2 of the 10 minutes and do the exercises in an alternate way because I couldn't breathe.  So after sitting and doing the adaptation,  I stood back up and resumed the best I could for the rest of the video.  Then I did the cool down stretching as best as I could.  On Friday,  I had gone to the YMCA and managed to crank out 6 minutes on the recumbent bike.  I find that the recumbent bike is actually harder for me to do than the regular stationary bike,  but the doctor wanted me to do the recumbent,  thinking it would be easier on my knee and back.  After I rode the bike,  I spent the next 45 minutes working out on 12 weight machines,  doing 3 sets of 12 reps on each machine.  So I am doing something positive.  I'm not completely a slug.

You all take care and congratulations to all of you on your hard work and progress you are making!

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 13 2009
06:13 (UTC)
982

Hey everybody!  Great to hear what everybody is doing.  Denise,  I wish I could hike again.  I used to love to hike!  Maybe some time in the future,  my body will cooperate and I will be able to do that.  I can always hope.  And I don't think anyone is getting tired of you talking about hiking.  It just gives us more motivation.  Thanks for sharing! Marinehead,  it is great to have you with us.  I look forward to hearing about your progress down healthy living road. Sun,  been missing you.  Hope everything is going OK with you.  Pixie,  congrats on the 3 pounds tossed this week.  Good going! IIIsong,  it's great that you have found a time and activity that you enjoy and is working for you.  Great work! Laurie,  I fix a lot of chicken.  It is so healthy and low calorie if you fix it in a healthful way.  I usually roast/bake my chicken with a drizzle of olive oil and seasonings laid on top of California Blend (Broccoli Normandy) or Green Beans.  It is really good that way.


I have wondered about the loose skin concern.  I guess I will have to face that bridge when I come to it.

 

Weight Loss 300+ Club, counting down to Jan 2010 Jan 12 2009
06:18 (UTC)
1,007

I'm so proud of myself.  I stuck to just the one serving of rice tonight and I put the rest in the refrigerator to cool a while.  Then I got it out and divided the rest of it up into 7 one and a third cup servings.  So now,  when I want my delicious brown rice with mushrooms and onions,  I can just pull one serving out of the freezer and fix that instead of putting temptations in front of me by having more than I should have.

 

Join Calorie Count - it's easy and free!
CREATE FREE ACCOUNT
Advertisement
Advertisement
Recent Activity
New forum message HIIT Exercise Suggestions
by scaroppo 09:07
jennali added dplatzer as a friend
New forum message Olympic Losers week 4 (group closed)
by marlies4 08:40