Ceasar Milan - Genius or horrible animal abuser?
This thread has been created in an effort to derail the highjacking of the pomeranian thread.
I vote genius.
Because he brought the crazy notion that dog should be treated like dogs, instead of like people, to the masses. And he provides applicable, realistic advice for improving the quality of life for both dogs and their owners.
I have yet to see Cesar take on a dalmatian. I seriously question his abilities until he takes on spots.
Okay, I edited a lot out because it was way too long. Anyway….here it goes.
1. His method contradicts decades of research! He bases nothing on science. His alpha dog theory is totally bunk. He bases his training on the likes of the Kohler and the Monks. He does not take into account the learning process of a canine. Any effective teaching process should incorporate the studies of Pavlov, Skinner, Breland, Bailey, etc. Ceasar’s method does not!
2. Not every issue a dog has is related to dominance. Not every dog has a dominant personality. A canine’s personality and their social structure is far more complex than dominance/submission. He also “corrects” dogs like a dog would (or at least that is what he claims). Dogs know that humans are not dogs. Dogs know that humans are humans. We play different roles in their social hierarchies. Why would I want, or need, to act like a dog to train? That line of thinking is very flawed and outdated.
3. Alpha Rolls! Do not do this to your dog! You can get seriously injured. Canines do not force other canines into submission, period! http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf
4. Watching The Dog Whisperer does not make you a dog trainer! I’m tired of people pretending they know all about dog psychology and training after watching a few episodes. That’s dangerous! If you do have a aggressive dog, doing these techniques can get you hurt.
5. Jerking your dogs’ leash around is to get them to heel isn’t teaching them anything. It’s shutting them down. Most of Ceasar’s dogs look shut down.
6. Flooding only works on TV.
I am somewhere in between. I like him, I ascribe (mostly) to his philosophy, but I don't think he's a genius. All I know is my dogs are much happier and better behaved when they are getting walked for an hour a day and don't get spoiled rotten.
I've seen Cesar take on 2 Dalmatians that I can think of. The one that got angry at her food and the firehouse dog. I'm pretty sure there are more, I just can't think of them. Nunu remains my favourite, to this day.
I mean, come on, I really don't want to see a dog walking around in people clothes. Dogs are dogs. They should not be treated more or less than that. They are affectionate, intelligent, sweet, but are used to a "pack" lifestyle and obey the person who provides structure and discipline. Not lots of treats.
Cats, on the other hand, are supreme beings......okay, just kidding. Lol.
digdig, What does using outdated training techniques have to do with wearing clothing? I can't really understand your point of view. You can provide structure and discipline without resulting to restricting air flow and doing alpha rolls. If people want to get physical with their dogs, by all means go ahead, but you don't have to. There are other ways that work.
You can provide structure and discipline to children without spanking them every time they do something wrong. Same goes for our pets, you don't have to get physical with them.
Original Post by jewelsmcblah:
Here's a link to start with:
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
Are you serious with that article? It basically says that Ceasar says A and that B and C are wrong and then goes into great detail about why B and C are wrong, ignoring A (which is what Ceasar says) but implying that he believes B and C without providing any evidence that he does.
In the article it is implied that he:
1) believes that "dog psyhcology" is some huge secret that only he knows the answer too.
2) believes that dogs behave exactly like wolves and bases his training methods on studies of wolf behavior which have been shown to be flawed
3) endorses the use of alpha rolls as means of asserting dominance
4) believes that physical exercise should be done at the total expense of mental exercise
5) believes that his methods are the only way to give a dog boundaries and that positive reenforcement is useless
None of these are true, and while the article doesn't come right out and say he believes any of these things, they imply it which seems to me like a deliberate attempt to misslead the reader. Which makes me question to credibility of the authors.
Original Post by jewelsmcblah:
Okay, there are a few things I like about Ceasar’s methods. First, a tired dog really is a good dog. Most dogs do not get very much exercise. Keeping a dog mentally and physically stimulated is essential to the health of our four legged friends. I also like how Ceasar puts the blame on the owners and not on the dog. I love all the rescue work he does. I also believe that remaining calm around your pet is important. Yelling and flailing your arms about is no way to get your dog to do what you want it to do. However, being calm and assertive will only get you so far.
Okay, I edited a lot out because it was way too long. Anyway….here it goes.
1. His method contradicts decades of research! He bases nothing on science. His alpha dog theory is totally bunk. He bases his training on the likes of the Kohler and the Monks. He does not take into account the learning process of a canine. Any effective teaching process should incorporate the studies of Pavlov, Skinner, Breland, Bailey, etc. Ceasar’s method does not!
2. Not every issue a dog has is related to dominance. Not every dog has a dominant personality. A canine’s personality and their social structure is far more complex than dominance/submission. He also “corrects” dogs like a dog would (or at least that is what he claims). Dogs know that humans are not dogs. Dogs know that humans are humans. We play different roles in their social hierarchies. Why would I want, or need, to act like a dog to train? That line of thinking is very flawed and outdated.
3. Alpha Rolls! Do not do this to your dog! You can get seriously injured. Canines do not force other canines into submission, period! http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf
4. Watching The Dog Whisperer does not make you a dog trainer! I’m tired of people pretending they know all about dog psychology and training after watching a few episodes. That’s dangerous! If you do have a aggressive dog, doing these techniques can get you hurt.
5. Jerking your dogs’ leash around is to get them to heel isn’t teaching them anything. It’s shutting them down. Most of Ceasar’s dogs look shut down.
6. Flooding only works on TV.
1. What exactly is his alpha-dog theory? that in a pack one dog acts as leader and that other dogs respond to it? How is that bunk?
2. In his book he actually states that most dogs don't have a dominant personality. And I have never seen him say or imply that every problem in dogs is related to dominance, just because it shows up on his show a lot doesn't mean he believes it, it means it makes for better TV.
3. Where does Ceasar ever condon alpha-rolls? I remember reading in his book that they were outdated and dangerous, have you seen any evidence to the contrary. Also, rolling a dog onto his back isn't necessarily an alpha-roll, there are plenty of reasons to do it other than showing dominance (McConnell describes on of these in her book "For Love of the Dog")
4. I totally agree, the show is pretty useless in terms of learning how to deal with dogs (the book is much better). Other TV shows are much more informative ("It's Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet for example) and even they can't show everything that goes into properly training a dog. However, I won't say that there is no benefit in watching Ceasar's show if you know what to look for. He uses body language/cues really well and it is a good reference for people making an effort to be more consious about the cues they send to their dog.
5. Jerking the dog's leash is effective for correcting a behavior and re-directing the dog's focus. It's similar to yelling "Hey" or "Stop" if the dog is sniffing around something he shouldn't or chewing something he shouldn't.
6. I don't think he's ever recommended flooding outside of the supervision of professionals. I think a lot of the controversy about him and this technique comes from the episode with the great dane who was afraid of shinny floors, I'd be interested to see a follow up to that episode and see how the dog is doing.
Jewels: Just another thing on my long list of "why I have chihuahuas". However, if you want to get more bang for your time, I thoroughly recommend having your pup run next to the bike.
I think digdig's point is that Cesar makes people aware that dogs are dogs, not substitute children. I think that's a good thing. People molly coddle their dogs all the time, and make excuses for bad behaviour, particularly small dogs, or so-called "nice breeds".
I personally love Daddy, so I can't take issue with anyone who has a dog that awesome. Basically, Cesar's dogs seem well adjusted and pleasant; he takes in troubled dogs that otherwise would be euthanized and gives them a happy and pleasant life. I can't fault him for that.
I don't have much time, but...
1. What exactly is his alpha-dog theory? that in a pack one dog acts as leader and that other dogs respond to it? How is that bunk?
If you've read McConnell's book you'd know. His theory is based on old ways of thinking (like The Monks of New Skete). We know that the pack hierarchy is much more fluid than the way Ceasar views it.
3. Where does Ceasar ever condon alpha-rolls? I remember reading in his book that they were outdated and dangerous, have you seen any evidence to the contrary. Also, rolling a dog onto his back isn't necessarily an alpha-roll, there are plenty of reasons to do it other than showing dominance (McConnell describes on of these in her book "For Love of the Dog")
I just watched an episode the other night and he rolled the dog about 5 or 6 times. Why would he keep doing alpha rolls is he does not condone them? McConnell says to roll your dog on it's back? For what? Belly rubs? To check for fleas and ticks? No where did she say that you should roll your dog on it's back for punishment, or to make it submit. Actually, she says that it does not work!
5. Jerking the dog's leash is effective for correcting a behavior and re-directing the dog's focus. It's similar to yelling "Hey" or "Stop" if the dog is sniffing around something he shouldn't or chewing something he shouldn't.
Why would you want to jerk around on your pet when you can just say "hey" or "easy" or "stop?"
Here's the thing. Raising dogs is exactly like raising children. Not to say that they manner in which it is done is similar at all. Every child, like every dog is distinct. There are things that "work" because they work most of the time. MOST of the time. the times they don't work don't prove that they never work just like the times they do work don't prove that it should be the only method considered. I think you should consider the humane techniques used by any person who has sucessfully raised several dogs. Just like getting parenting advise from someone who you admire as a successful parent. I have trained and raised 7 dogs now. I don't agree with cornering dogs for dominance because i have been biten and should have known better. I do beleive in collaring dogs because it stops aggressive behaviors at the point. I have raised all of my pups in different ways according to their personality. I have a German Shep who i have "grounded or Rolled" many time when he was a pup and it has stopped his agressiveness, however he is still a protetive dog and when asked to he will chase down other animals or leave them be. I have a besinji/Ridgeback who rolls on her own and i have rolled her to stop an attack and after she got up she went and attacked anyway. Works for some dogs not for others. The point is that with everything there are opposing views and what really works is whatever keeps the dog healthy and get the desired result. There is no template. I use a method until i get a dog that it doesn't work with.
ceasar has takenon a dalmation, he was a firefighters dog, and the dog turned out great.
about the training tips, if his methods are so out dated why do they seem to work so well jewels? seems to me that if is methods didnt work than he wouldng have over 100 episodes and various famous clients coming to him spending who knows how much to train their dogs. the man doesnt claim to be the only one to know the secrets of how to train dogs, he trains countless people to do what he does, and his dogs dont look shut down, your probably referring to the old pitbull who is 14, every episode i have watched the dogs that are in his custody look really happy, but from the sounds of it you should have your own dog training show and be the expert.
ceaser is the man, screw everyonewho thinks otherwise
also jewels he doest say hit your dog when he/she is being bad, i dont know what your definition of alpha is or pack leader but it basically means you have to show the dog your in charge, it has nothing to do with stricking your dog, you claim the territory and it is supposed to listen to you thats the way it works. as far as his method of correction goes it doesnt hurt the dog, if the dog was hurt by what he does you would hear it crying or yelping, yet you hear none of that...the leash around the top of the neck for example doesnt hurt them at all its a comman training technique and only restricts air flow if you put the leash on too tight or pul really hard, ceaser does little tugs, give it a shot it doesnt hurt the dog, the dog restrics more air when they are pulling in the leash themselves.
also jewels about all these other theories your pulling out here, youre always going to find theories that oppose other theories, thats how theories and theorists work...i read a study on 8 hours of sleep is beneficial and then read another on if you get 8 or more the studies showed you lived 3 years less on average....i could go on all day long...so dont pull out this garbage that mcdonnel or whoever says it doesnt work...good for her, someone probably wrote a book saying how her book is garbage, last time i checked anyone can come up with a theory to debnk another theory, doesnt mean they are always right.
*Yawn*
Created an account just to sing praises of a man who has chocked out a dog because he wasn't responding to his aversive training measures. Oooooh boy.
They seem to work well because it's a TV show. You haven't noticed the dogs looking shut down? Perhaps you need to study up on your canine body language. Brenda Arloff has a good book...with pictures even.
Yeah, I should have my own show because I disagree with Cesar's philosophy and that makes me an expert.
Screw "everyonewho" doesn't understand how classical and operant conditioning works without being abusive to a dog.
His intentions are good but I'm on the fence... because some things I agree with and other I don't.
Only time my dog is alpha-rolled is when I'm playing with him and I roll him over and rub his belly and 'pretend choke' him, and he growls and his tail wags all fast and when I let go he jumps up and does a doggie bow and runs off with his Mr blueman! :> Okay... that probably doesn't count...
I also don't like when he sorta kicks the doggies. :<
Edit: Sorry about that huuuge run-on sentence. :0
