CHEATERS....What is America Coming to?

HEHEHE..so check it it people…

I knew America was F’ed up, but DAMN!!!! When you are married…that’s it man…no more chasin’ booty.  They have a site where married people can go on and cheat on their husband or wife.  WTF.  And get this….ohhhhh you’re gunna love this...the site: AshleyMadison.com is named after the guy’s daughters…and they are like little kids.  I guess this really is the home of the free and brave where people can profit off of cheating spouses.  Not only that, but he even made the slogan “Life is short…Why not have an affair”…hahahaha.  I gotta give it to him though…he is exploiting something that will make him rich….QUICK!!!!!.

I told my girl if she ever saw me on that crap … that she has the permission to shoot me in the eyeball and rip off my balls.  I mean what do you think seeing a site like this? By the way…some women might want to check and see if their husbands are on there…you might get a RUDE surprise!!!!!!

Original Post by monarch777:

Or, one could say that because my relationship is crap...I am entitled to screw around. Entitlement is everywhere. Not just the judgemental people corner the market on it.

I think if one's relationship is crap..they should get out of it expeditiously...and THEN screw around. It's only fair. If you choose to have extramarital sex, you also invite the judgement. That's the way it goes.

Ah, I see. Well, that makes sense.

So by extension, if someone eats more calories than they burn and choose to get fat, then they invite judgment too. That's the way it goes.

I see absolutely no flaws with this philosophy whatsoever.

Original Post by hatamoto:

Original Post by monarch777:

Or, one could say that because my relationship is crap...I am entitled to screw around. Entitlement is everywhere. Not just the judgemental people corner the market on it.

I think if one's relationship is crap..they should get out of it expeditiously...and THEN screw around. It's only fair. If you choose to have extramarital sex, you also invite the judgement. That's the way it goes.

Ah, I see. Well, that makes sense.

So by extension, if someone eats more calories than they burn and choose to get fat, then they invite judgment too. That's the way it goes.

I see absolutely no flaws with this philosophy whatsoever.

 Well, I didn't see monarch comparing cheating to over-eating, so I'm not sure why you would try to relate the two.  I never saw her say that her "philosophy" applied to every random scenerio that anyone could possibly think up.  She was speaking about this scenerio and this one only.

Because of consistency. If one says "by your actions, you invite other people to judge you" then regardless of what those actions are, they should be sanguine with BEING judged if they don't live up to whatever the judgers' expectations are.

Good for the goose, good for the plump, juicy gander.

Otherwise, that'd just be hypocritical.

I disagree, hata.

Are you honestly going to tell me that cheating on a spouse is the same thing as someone eating too much and gaining weight???  Cheating involves lying to the spouse.  Especially if they expect the behavior to continue.  It is an act of betrayal.  So unless the over-eater is lying to their spouse about their actions, the two things are not comparable.

Tell me something...would your wife put you cheating in the same category as you over-eating and gaining weight?

No, but I'm honestly going to tell you that people who happily point fingers at others should be aware that they're acting just like the people who point fingers at them. The 'cheating' thing is more or less irrelevant to me, the public demonstrations of societally-mandated disdain is what's tweaking my nipples.

Honestly, whether or not some guy or some girl cheats on her partner... if you're not the cheater or the cheatee, what's it to you?

... and the judgementalism due to weight gain thing was just an example to help drive the point home, albeit one chosen because it's apropos for the audience. Don't get hung up on it.

Original Post by hatamoto:

The 'cheating' thing is more or less irrelevant to me, the public demonstrations of societally-mandated disdain is what's tweaking my nipples.

 Huh?  Societally-mandated disdain?  Pretty sure we were just responding to the OP's question on whether we agreed with it or not.

So basically you are upset because people have the nerve to say that they detest cheating.  Is that it?

The original poster wanted people to back up his own disdain. Humans are social creatures; we love to hate en masse.

... and clearly I'm not getting my message across effectively. My problem isn't with cheating or not, it's with the reflexive expressions of outrage with no reservations of scope or measure. I'd probably have the same reaction if everyone were piling on smokers in the same way.

No, I get your message.  You have a problem with people who would dare to express outrage toward an act, regardless of the reason why the person commited the act.  I get it.

No, you don't get it, but I'm not prepared to do a dance of sophistry with you over it.

A dance of sophistry. (eye roll)

Be real. There is judgement. If you eat a whole lot and gain weight, yes, you unfortunately are judged by others, unfairly perhaps, but people think you are lazy, smelly and unattractive. We have had many threads where people have posted how complete strangers have walked up to them and made rude comments about their size....true, they shouldn't be treated this way..but it is a reality. There is no utopia where everyone is accepting of others.

Weight gain is an outward sign of lack of self-control or dependence right? So a known cheater is also displaying lack of integrity and self-control. I suppose it would be nice if people kept their opinions to themselves...but they never will.

So yes, whatever we do...positive or negative..is going to invite either praise or criticism.

So...if one feels the need to cheat that strongly..they should leave the safety of their relationship, have some integrity and take their big chances on their own...and leave their ex-spouse with some kind of choice. Not just sitting there  ignorantly thinking everything is fine. Maybe they should have a chance to get some "strange" too..on their own terms. That's all.

Original Post by monarch777:

Be real. There is judgement. If you eat a whole lot and gain weight, yes, you unfortunately are judged by others, unfairly perhaps, but people think you are lazy, smelly and unattractive. We have had many threads where people have posted how complete strangers have walked up to them and made rude comments about their size....true, they shouldn't be treated this way..but it is a reality. There is no utopia where everyone is accepting of others.

Weight gain is an outward sign of lack of self-control or dependence right? So a known cheater is also displaying lack of integrity and self-control. I suppose it would be nice if people kept their opinions to themselves...but they never will.

So yes, whatever we do...positive or negative..is going to invite either praise or criticism.

Ah, I see. Because everyone else does it, that makes it okay.

Right. Gotcha.

So...if one feels the need to cheat that strongly..they should leave the safety of their relationship, have some integrity and take their big chances on their own...and leave their ex-spouse with some kind of choice. Not just sitting there ignorantly thinking everything is fine. Maybe they should have a chance to get some "strange" too..on their own terms. That's all.

I suspect that if every relationship was terminated on the basis of one of the members cheating, that there would a sudden and dramatic uptick in divorces. As has been mentioned, there's a heckuvalot of extramarital boot knocking going on... while I'm loathe to cite Wikipedia as any sort of authoritative reference, if these numbers are accurate then as many as 1/8th of the children born are not those of the presumptive father, which apparently is not an exclusively human trait.

It would appear that both sides of a relationship have ample opportunity to follow a wandering eye, and do.

I'm not a fan of the concept of, in order to follow a basic biological urge, that it should always and without exception come at the cost of the complete demolition of all progress made during the lifespan of that relationship. I understand the stigma attached and the purpose for it: make life as absolutely f**king miserable for the cheater so they won't cheat. Problem is, it works about as well as the war on drugs, i.e. poorly to not at all.

Cheating is generally a sign that something is missing in the relationship, and something so deeply compelling in our biology that people (both men and women) are willing to risk security literally built up over decades and become a social pariah to fill that need. Clearly, the conditioned response of the scorched earth policy isn't filling the need OR effectively preventing it.

Maybe it's time for a more evolved look at how things can and should fit together.

Well, perhaps the person who is knocking boots with someone else would hate to lose their evolved relationship and all that progress (i.e. finances, social standing, their reputation, the stability they enjoy) That is why so many people keep it a dirty little secret and why cheating is cheating. They don't want their husband or wife to kick them out or have to split everything and mess with the children's lives. I understand that. But it isn't all up to them is it? What if your spouse finds out and decides you suck...and doesn't want to forgive you? If the cheater weren't afraid of all that..they wouldn't be sneaking would they? Perhaps they should have sought out an open relationship or a poly-amorous situation in the first place.

And as you said "Ah, I see. Because everyone else does it, that makes it okay."

Right. Gotcha.

We all were born with freedom of choice. We are not animals. We all have the ability to exercise self-control.

This is actually a pointless debate, and yes, cheating is more widely accepted than it ever used to be in our country. I guess it is up to the individual couple to decide what to do after as you predict..the inevitable infidelity. Some may stay together, some might not. I know that in my own marriage...I let my husband know that if that happens...I am out. It's a personal choice. I wouldn't sit around wondering what I did wrong. If he couldn't come to me with his unhappiness with our relationship BEFORE he cheated...I guess he did not trust me enough to change in the first place...or perhaps the new person he was boffing fills a spot I could never fill. Blaming the person you are betraying is cowardly. Perhaps the cheating party should own his or her lack of integrity instead of blaming their mate for not living up to their expectations. And perhaps monogamy isn't for everyone. But don't force someone else into it with no choice in the matter while you are exchanging body fluids with someone else. That's creepy.

Ah, but that's where the problem comes in. People are so tied up in knots over the conflation of extramarital sex with cheating that reasonable discussion about such things is nigh impossible.

For example, one girlfriend of mine was in a prior relationship, wherein she felt comfortable enough to reveal to him that she was interested in seeing what it'd be like with another woman. Not that she was going to go out to find and be with her, mind you, just that she was interested in trying it out. Her guy completely went off the rails, started screaming at her "ITS STILL CHEATING IF ITS WITH A WOMAN!", freaked her right out left her emotionally scarred for years, afraid to ever honestly reveal her relatively mundane desires and eventually driving a wedge between them.

I absolutely agree that open communication can solve these problems before they start, but with communication has to come the maturity to process what you hear. It seems that precious few currently possess that maturity... therein lies the catch-22: how do you evolve your thinking if noone's talking, and how can you start talking if you risk censure for merely uttering the words?

... and that's why debates like this aren't pointless. This is the way out of the catch-22. I may not be able to convince you, and you may not be able to convince me, but convincing each other isn't the point. Providing food for thought to people watching is.

Perhaps it's HER fault for not choosing someone who was at the morality level she had. I think that you confuse maturity and morality. Everyone has a different mindset when it comes to what they feel is appropriate. It doesn't mean that you are immature if it is totally unacceptable TO YOU that your partner wants to try out someone else. It just means that perhaps you are mis-matched.

 You should find someone with the same thought-processes. Why force your way of thinking onto someone else? Or pretend you think the same way until you are completely unhappy? Be honest ! If some guy likes dressing in women's naughty underwear, hides it from his girlfriend and then marries her...because he did not want to upset her...and then later feels betrayed when it is discovered and she doesn't like it....it isn't HER fault for being "immature"...it's really his for lying to her in the first place about who he really was...or what he really liked.

When someone basically makes a promise, knows the "rules" and agrees with them...and then breaks the rules based on weak arguments about it being biological or innate...or that they aren't getting enough freaky sex...they are just being wholly selfish. A person who cheats isn't usually interested in working on a troubled relationship. They are only interested in themselves at that moment.

Perhaps the relationship is bad because both people aren't happy in different ways....and the fair thing to do is give the other person a choice to get out...instead of just selfishly going out and getting sumpin'-spumpin' on the side. Which...in effect isn't going to help the relationship. It is only going to draw the two commited people farther apart. Why stay together? Why lie?

Original Post by monarch777:

Perhaps it's HER fault for not choosing someone who was at the morality level she had. I think that you confuse maturity and morality. Everyone has a different mindset when it comes to what they feel is appropriate. It doesn't mean that you are immature if it is totally unacceptable TO YOU that your partner wants to try out someone else. It just means that perhaps you are mis-matched.

But how do you know that before you enter into a relationship, and what is a relationship if not a voyage of discovery, both of others and of yourself? And if you enter a relationship, are you then supposed to remain static, predictable and unchanging?

Morality and maturity, in my experience, are separate but often linked concepts. Some people think purely in black and white, like that of a child who cannot comprehend nuance. In the example I gave above, while his initial feeling may have been based on his system of morality, the way he dealt with it was very immature, as was his inability (lack of desire?) to even try to see things from her point of view.

By whatever label, it gets in the way.

You should find someone with the same thought-processes. Why force your way of thinking onto someone else? Or pretend you think the same way until you are completely unhappy? Be honest!

Humans tend to think that people we like / look up to think like us. Have you ever been a fan of some musician or movie star, then found out that their personal beliefs differ from yours and been somewhat shocked by it?

The same sort of dynamic goes into people's relationships, and when the honeymoon period ends people find themselves realizing that the other person isn't exactly what they thought. Sometimes the differences are minor, sometimes they're dramatic and relationship-ending.

If some guy likes dressing in women's naughty underwear, hides it from his girlfriend and then marries her...because he did not want to upset her...and then later feels betrayed when it is discovered and she doesn't like it....it isn't HER fault for being "immature"...it's really his for lying to her in the first place about who he really was...or what he really liked.

Which moves the conversation somewhat into the realm of what society dictates is "the norm" and how mercilessly they get treated when they deviate outside of it... a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

... and her liking or not liking it isn't the pinion on which her maturity turns, it's her reaction to it.

A mature person would communicate, discuss, come to terms with revelations such as that and work out solutions which don't involve a nuclear option, even if the solution eventually turns out to be separation due to irreconcilable differences.

An immature person would lose her ****, toss all his stuff on the lawn (including his frilly unmentionables) and announce to the kids and her friends and the entire social circle that he's a freak and pariah and should be shunned until the end of days... if not a more extreme solution involving assault or firearms.

On his part, if he were honest then yes, he should have shared that before marriage. If he were immature in addition to fearful, he'd probably rail against the injustice of it all when discovered and kick HER out of the house. At the very least he'd likely engage in a durable bout of 'poor-me-ism'.

That said, it's his prerogative to feel 'betrayed' just as much as it is hers. The question isn't purely of the feelings involved, but in how to deal with them so's it's not bad blood all around. The all-or-nothing approach GUARANTEES psychologically and emotionally destructive conflict.

When someone basically makes a promise, knows the "rules" and agrees with them...and then breaks the rules based on weak arguments about it being biological or innate...or that they aren't getting enough freaky sex...they are just being wholly selfish. A person who cheats isn't usually interested in working on a troubled relationship. They are only interested in themselves at that moment.

If the drive was weak, it wouldn't happen or would only as a statistical outlier. The basic assumption that the urge to wander is some transient or negligible issue based on vanity when it's demonstrably not. It's inherent to nearly every species on the planet, amply demonstrated with numerous studies on the human animal and many others. Even the humble fruit fly demonstrates the behaviour. Humans not only do it, but do it in large numbers even in defiance of the strongest social deterrents and lethal consequence. "Freaky Sex", as it turns out, is a helluva motivator.

I do agree that it is essentially a selfish motivation, but most biological urges are. We rarely get the urge to pee for someone else (women disappearing into the washroom in packs notwithstanding!)

Moreover, while I suspect that while many who cheat have troubled relationships, the trouble in the relationship is the tension caused by one or both partners internally pitting intellect against instinct.

Financial problems, infidelity and sexual dysfunction are the 3 largest factors in divorce. The economy may not be something individuals have any control over, but infidelity certainly is, and sexual dysfunction is surely tied up with that. The way it's currently being addressed though, in this "all or nothing, or don't ask/don't tell" way, is not working terribly well.

Perhaps the relationship is bad because both people aren't happy in different ways....and the fair thing to do is give the other person a choice to get out...instead of just selfishly going out and getting sumpin'-spumpin' on the side. Which...in effect isn't going to help the relationship. It is only going to draw the two commited people farther apart. Why stay together? Why lie?

Perhaps because the solution, in the black and white world of either 100% monogamy or nothing is as bad as the problem. Sexually incompatible people stay together for lots of reasons: love, comfort, kids, financial stability. That doesn't mean they're happy, it just means they're not as miserable as they anticipate the alternative would be.

... and you will never hear me say "That's not suitable for xx, only for xy". This is an equal opportunity issue, and requires a solution that works equitably even if not perfectly.

Well, it ISN'T black and white. But cheating is. It is betrayal. Someone trusts you. If you are in a relationship where the woman hates sex, the man still loves her and they have mutually agreed she would "let it go" if he had another partner. and agreed to stay together..that is completely different than if he lied. I think you are putting things into too many shades of gray to suit your arguement. The bottom line is....when you lie you are stealing the other person's choice in the matter. Some men...and some women perhaps...selfishly want another partner to play with, but their spouse better not. I don't think some people could handle the reverse happening to them, yet do it to the person they supposedly love.

If you screw around, you should let your husband have the same freedom. Right? But if you told him, he would probably leave you. SO there.

Original Post by hatamoto:

Original Post by monarch777:

Perhaps it's HER fault for not choosing someone who was at the morality level she had. I think that you confuse maturity and morality. Everyone has a different mindset when it comes to what they feel is appropriate. It doesn't mean that you are immature if it is totally unacceptable TO YOU that your partner wants to try out someone else. It just means that perhaps you are mis-matched.

But how do you know that before you enter into a relationship, and what is a relationship if not a voyage of discovery, both of others and of yourself? And if you enter a relationship, are you then supposed to remain static, predictable and unchanging?

Morality and maturity, in my experience, are separate but often linked concepts. Some people think purely in black and white, like that of a child who cannot comprehend nuance. In the example I gave above, while his initial feeling may have been based on his system of morality, the way he dealt with it was very immature, as was his inability (lack of desire?) to even try to see things from her point of view.

By whatever label, it gets in the way.

You should find someone with the same thought-processes. Why force your way of thinking onto someone else? Or pretend you think the same way until you are completely unhappy? Be honest!

Humans tend to think that people we like / look up to think like us. Have you ever been a fan of some musician or movie star, then found out that their personal beliefs differ from yours and been somewhat shocked by it?

The same sort of dynamic goes into people's relationships, and when the honeymoon period ends people find themselves realizing that the other person isn't exactly what they thought. Sometimes the differences are minor, sometimes they're dramatic and relationship-ending.

If some guy likes dressing in women's naughty underwear, hides it from his girlfriend and then marries her...because he did not want to upset her...and then later feels betrayed when it is discovered and she doesn't like it....it isn't HER fault for being "immature"...it's really his for lying to her in the first place about who he really was...or what he really liked.

Which moves the conversation somewhat into the realm of what society dictates is "the norm" and how mercilessly they get treated when they deviate outside of it... a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

... and her liking or not liking it isn't the pinion on which her maturity turns, it's her reaction to it.

A mature person would communicate, discuss, come to terms with revelations such as that and work out solutions which don't involve a nuclear option, even if the solution eventually turns out to be separation due to irreconcilable differences.

An immature person would lose her ****, toss all his stuff on the lawn (including his frilly unmentionables) and announce to the kids and her friends and the entire social circle that he's a freak and pariah and should be shunned until the end of days... if not a more extreme solution involving assault or firearms.

On his part, if he were honest then yes, he should have shared that before marriage. If he were immature in addition to fearful, he'd probably rail against the injustice of it all when discovered and kick HER out of the house. At the very least he'd likely engage in a durable bout of 'poor-me-ism'.

That said, it's his prerogative to feel 'betrayed' just as much as it is hers. The question isn't purely of the feelings involved, but in how to deal with them so's it's not bad blood all around. The all-or-nothing approach GUARANTEES psychologically and emotionally destructive conflict.

When someone basically makes a promise, knows the "rules" and agrees with them...and then breaks the rules based on weak arguments about it being biological or innate...or that they aren't getting enough freaky sex...they are just being wholly selfish. A person who cheats isn't usually interested in working on a troubled relationship. They are only interested in themselves at that moment.

If the drive was weak, it wouldn't happen or would only as a statistical outlier. The basic assumption that the urge to wander is some transient or negligible issue based on vanity when it's demonstrably not. It's inherent to nearly every species on the planet, amply demonstrated with numerous studies on the human animal and many others. Even the humble fruit fly demonstrates the behaviour. Humans not only do it, but do it in large numbers even in defiance of the strongest social deterrents and lethal consequence. "Freaky Sex", as it turns out, is a helluva motivator.

I do agree that it is essentially a selfish motivation, but most biological urges are. We rarely get the urge to pee for someone else (women disappearing into the washroom in packs notwithstanding!)

Moreover, while I suspect that while many who cheat have troubled relationships, the trouble in the relationship is the tension caused by one or both partners internally pitting intellect against instinct.

Financial problems, infidelity and sexual dysfunction are the 3 largest factors in divorce. The economy may not be something individuals have any control over, but infidelity certainly is, and sexual dysfunction is surely tied up with that. The way it's currently being addressed though, in this "all or nothing, or don't ask/don't tell" way, is not working terribly well.

Perhaps the relationship is bad because both people aren't happy in different ways....and the fair thing to do is give the other person a choice to get out...instead of just selfishly going out and getting sumpin'-spumpin' on the side. Which...in effect isn't going to help the relationship. It is only going to draw the two commited people farther apart. Why stay together? Why lie?

Perhaps because the solution, in the black and white world of either 100% monogamy or nothing is as bad as the problem. Sexually incompatible people stay together for lots of reasons: love, comfort, kids, financial stability. That doesn't mean they're happy, it just means they're not as miserable as they anticipate the alternative would be.

... and you will never hear me say "That's not suitable for xx, only for xy". This is an equal opportunity issue, and requires a solution that works equitably even if not perfectly.

 That is such an unbelievably long post, I wouldn't even know where to begin.  Monarch, kudos to you if you can actually sort through all that to figure out what he's saying.

Stripped to its barest essentials for people who find reading a chore:

Cheating is betrayal, yet despite an enormous of pressure, people still cheat. I say this is due to basic biological urges, and my assertion is backed by research. If it's a basic biological urge, then viewing it as a purely social problem is silly. That perspective doesn't address the problem and provides only a pisspoor solution that ends in pain no matter which way it leads. Pointing at people and saying "No! Bad doggie!" has not, and will not, cure the problem.

I further assert that something other than the all-or-nothing approach is necessary. In order to accomplish that understanding, communication and a mind either free of, or capable of thinking beyond, rigidly dogmatic views of the world and relationships is necessary.

I think you are putting things into too many shades of gray to suit your arguement.

More gray is necessary. Black and white thinking is half the problem. A big part of why people get so upset on topics like this is that they're required to confront issues that may challenge things they consider absolute.

Original Post by peaches0405:

 That is such an unbelievably long post, I wouldn't even know where to begin.  Monarch, kudos to you if you can actually sort through all that to figure out what he's saying.

Like most things written in english, you begin at the beginning. 

As to the length-- reading is a learned skill and sometimes things worth reading are lengthy.  I found, despite its length, it was well broken up, legible, and understandable.  Thoughts do not need to be in soundbites to be consumable.  Your agreement with his statements or not has no bearing on the legitimacy of his viewpoint.

edit: strange spelling error