LOCKED TOPIC
Christians.....I have a Question?
OK, first let me put you in my picture.....
I was raised as a Christian until I was fourteen when I decided after some considerable thought that I no longer wanted to be a part of something that was and is in my eyes so hypocritical. As I sat there on my last ever day in church half listening to the apparent glory that is god, and looking at the people around me I just couldn't get it out of my head "what a bunch of hypocrites"! with their big flashy cars, posh houses, bragging about what they bought last week and how much it cost, standing outside damning them down the road for the way they live, what they wear etc. You do something bad, go to confession and tell a bloke who wasn't even there that you are sorry, he gives you 2 Hail-Marys and an Our Father and your saved....I'm not buying it.
What makes me laugh is that those who say they believe in god, think that that makes them a good person....why? I don't believe in god and I'm a much nicer person than some devout christains I know.
What makes you think that because you tell some person at your church that you are sorry for somethings that you are automatically saved?
How many of you can say in all honesty that you don't repeatedly break one or more of the.....
SEVEN DEADLY SINS (CARDINAL) for those not sure what they are (in short)....
- Lust...excessive sexual desires.
- Gluttony....over consumption of anything to the point of waste.
- Greed....acquisition of wealth, anything obtained by disloyalty, betrayal. for personal gain.
- Sloth...sin of sadness/despair, apathy, depression, failure to utilize ones talents/gifts.
- Wrath...hatred, anger, denial of the truth to others/self, revenge, spite.
- Envy...the desire to have something someone else has, to deny that person of having it because you want it.
- Pride...the most deadly of all because it is the ultimate source from which all the others arise from. Excessive love of self!
It is these 7 things that turned me away, because nearly every single person in that church that day committed at least one of these on a daily basis, but that's OK because they confess to them every week....or do they? Then go out and do it all over again.
What is it that makes you believe that you can repeatedly commit these Deadly Sins and be continually forgiven for them, but the rest of us are damned?
*NOTE* This is an open topic for those for and against, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that opinion although open for debate must at all times be respected. Thank you.
Reason: Thread locked at the request of the original poster
putting aside whether you believe in God or the Bible or not. I think it only fair that when examining Christianity that you look at what the Bible has to say about what Christians should be. Kind of like a textbook for Christians. The same as is you were examining some other religion...say the Muslim faith you would look at the Koran.
That being said I would like to point out that a lot of doctrines of 'Christian' religions upon close examination don't actually agree w/what the Bible actually says, they have no real scriptural support, and are often more the opinions of man and will vary from one Christian to another. So I don't really think it's fair to judge Christianity on any one of the religions spurned from it. I do think it's fair to examine the Bible it self and make your own decision on belief based on that.
ladyfirelyght- as far as what you said about works, I would like to point out that what that pastor said does not agree w/the Bible. The Apostle James wrote that 'faith w/out works is dead'. So yes good works are important but according to the Bible they alone also aren't a source of salvation. Since the main point of Christianity is belief in Jesus and what he taught and recognizing that his ransom sacrifice means forgiveness of sins for those who are repentant(which means not only feeling sorry for the action but then trying to change it/stop doing it). But the idea of doing good works is repeated throughout the Greek scriptures and the accounts of Jesus certainly set an example of this.
As far as attending a religion out of fear not I don't agree w/that either. In fact I don't believe in hell as fiery place of torment either. If you look at the word that hell was translated from in the Bible, Sheol in the Hebrew scriptures and when it was translated to Greek Hades, these words refer to the common grave of humankind. And the Bible speaks of men which God had expressed approval for going to hell, such as King David, Job and others. Jesus said that the two most important 'laws' were to love God and love your neighbor, respectively. So motivation for practicing Christianity should stem from unselfish love not from fear.
Sorry this got kind of long. But my point is do your own research and don't just believe what any one person or religion says.
one of the best explanations i've found of the difference between religion and spirituality is this one:
Spirituality is eclectic and transcends ideologies and institutions. It is a complex construct that can be deeply personal and communal and that can encompass a sense of connection with something bigger that transcends ordinary life experience (something bigger is necessarily self-defined). Religion can be described as a construction of institutionalized worship that is dependent on a notion of God or godheads and is based on doctrine or system of organized beliefs and behaviors, usually shared by people.
Coholic, D., (2003). Incorporating spirituality in feminist social work perspectives. Affilia, 18(49).
to my mind, a true belief system is one that a person builds for herself based on experience and exploration. it requires intellectual work, and it evolves as the person learns. it can't be just passed along to the next person in a neat, tidy package.
Yes it is sad that for the most part people force their own religion onto their children. It is very rare indeed for children to be allowed to explore all religions and decide for themselves what is right for them. It seems that most people enter and go through their entire adulthood as whatever religion they were when they were born, and never give it a second thought.
You're probably right about that Fuzzy (not sure about the never giving it a second thought -- I think most people question their faith at some point in their lives) but in my church it's the opposite.
And our kids have RE - religious education - in which they learn about all the religions, past and present, so that they can better determine their own true spiritual path.
"Ours is a free faith."
I read the Bible 3 complete times. I've read parts of the New Testament more than that. It is in the reading of the Bible that really turned me off to Christianity and to the idea of a saviour completely.
As I said earlier, the concept of original sin and being condemned from the moment life begins as a sinner is too much for me. Just that concept alone does not point to a loving God. Then there's the parts where God annihilates complete villages and a whole tribe including all women and children because of the sin of a few men. Then there's the 10 commandments where God says that man shall put no other God before him and if man does then the sins of the father will be handed down 4 generations. This means that a child is responsible for the sins of his great great great grandparents.
The idea of a good sending his son down to earth to die for sins could be construed to show how loving this god is. After all he is giving his son as a sacrifice. I see it as proof that this god is not all that loving. First he creates creatures (people) who are imperfect and can't follow the rules. Then he sends his son to die an agonizing death so that these people can then be forgiven. Why do they need forgiveness for being and doing what they were created to do and be?
I agree with the person who said that religion is far different from a relationship. I feel that I have more of a relationship than I do religion. I can honestly say that I haven't even read the entire bible cover to cover. I don't get into all that stuff with Chrisitianity and I wasn't raised to, but I do believe strongly in having a relationship with God and I am trying to have a better one. Religion can be a bunch of bull and I too sometimes while at church look around and think to myself "these people are so fake" even the Preachers, but I've been told to not let that deter me from what my goal is with God.
(admittedly did not read the other posts)
I understand where you are coming from anndjoe. I was raised Southern Baptist and the hypocrisy within that church is completely ridiculous. I quit going to church when I was about 21 and for similar reasons as you, but more so because I felt like the hypocrite. I was "saved" when I was younger, and got involved in the church. I even assisted in teaching Sunday School to 3rd graders. I am currently mixed on how I feel when it comes to religion. But, I don't believe that Christianity is horrible. I think it is necessary for some people. There are many people who have nothing other than their belief.
Original Post by moonikins:
The idea of a good sending his son down to earth to die for sins could be construed to show how loving this god is. After all he is giving his son as a sacrifice. I see it as proof that this god is not all that loving. First he creates creatures (people) who are imperfect and can't follow the rules. Then he sends his son to die an agonizing death so that these people can then be forgiven. Why do they need forgiveness for being and doing what they were created to do and be?
But Adam and Eve were created perfect. They had the ability to follow the rules. There was only one rule, which was to not to eat from one tree in a garden full of trees. They broke that rule, and Satan who tempted Eve (Genesis chapter 3 if you want to look this up) essentially called God a liar, stating that He was holding back something good from them. By doing that Satan and Adam and Eve essentially challenged whether God had the right to rule over his creation, and implied that they would be better off ruling over themselves. So God has given humankind that opportunity to prove that humans can rule themselves. (Satan's challenge and this issue is restated in the first few chapters of the Job). But he left the way open for those that choose to, to return to him through his son's sacrifice, which his son did voluntarily.
Narfblast, did you read the part where I said I had read the complete Bible 3 times. I know what Genesis and Job says. I don't believe it is proof of a loving god. I put serious thought and contemplation into it. I looked at it from many angles and it isn't right for me.
I also don't believe the Bible is the inerrant word of god. If it were there wouldn't be so many contradictory statements and ideas in it.
Did you forget the part in the Bible where it says god is all knowing, or omnipotent. This means that god knows everything. He is knows everything we did or will do. That means he knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit if he put the tree there. Why put the tree there then? If you're creating something and you know exactly what it's going to do and when it's going to do it, does it make sense to create it in such a way that it will do things you don't want it to do?
I know you're going to come back with some other faith-based stuff from the Bible. I just want you to know you're wasting it on me. I've read it. I've thought about it. I don't believe it.
Nomo - agreed, if I were to ever attend church (which I don't foresee happening!) it would be the Unitarian. Unfortunately, in my city even the UU churches are predominately Christian and have very little of the other faiths. However in other places I have lived, the UU churches were quite religiously diverse and everyone was welcome, even non-believers.
That is definitely a positive sign, but not nearly common enough.
Im 14 and my entire family is Christian... I even go to a Christian school. But I think Im going to turn Athiest. I find Christianity just too hard to believe. a) I strongly believe in evolution....i mean...its a proven fact! The bible contradicts evolution b) Noah's arc??? i mean...whats up with that? were there dinosaurs on noah's arc? if not, where did they fit in? Plus, scientists have studied the ground layers around the world and especially where they believe the flood would have occurred. They didn't find any traces of flood damage... c) Christianity is just another religion. It's just another story people made up...like Islam...Judisim... etc. People want to think that they can do basically whatever they want on earth and get away with it as long as they believe in God. Just because they want to believe in "heaven" where they'll have happiness forever doesn't mean it exists.
Ours is about half Christian and half other things - but everyone is totally accepting of everyone and feels GLAD to be able to learn about other faiths.
There's another UU church that I might be switching to if I can get a job in that area which is about 1/3 Christian and the rest is other faiths - a significant Buddhist group included. That church lets a local AIDS charity use the church once a month for Drag Bingo - which is FUN!
:D
Why do Atheists seem angry? Because we should be.
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_chris tinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html
Said it before and I'll say it again:
There are people that inherit (btw good word for that pg, so I'm stealing it) their spiritual beliefs and there are far fewer who actually take the time to really explore their spiritual beliefs.
To believe that any religion, regardless of membership size, is more prone to that (percentage wise) than others is fooling yourself.
Not sure if you're addressing the UU church with that comment Iggy, but I can tell you definitively that at my home church, out of a congregation of about 300 or so people, there are only a handful, maybe 3 or 4 people, who didn't come from some other religious background other than UU.
We don't evangelize -- people who come to our church want to be there.
Original Post by moonikins:
I read the Bible 3 complete times. I've read parts of the New Testament more than that. It is in the reading of the Bible that really turned me off to Christianity and to the idea of a saviour completely.
As I said earlier, the concept of original sin and being condemned from the moment life begins as a sinner is too much for me. Just that concept alone does not point to a loving God. Then there's the parts where God annihilates complete villages and a whole tribe including all women and children because of the sin of a few men. Then there's the 10 commandments where God says that man shall put no other God before him and if man does then the sins of the father will be handed down 4 generations. This means that a child is responsible for the sins of his great great great grandparents.
The idea of a good sending his son down to earth to die for sins could be construed to show how loving this god is. After all he is giving his son as a sacrifice. I see it as proof that this god is not all that loving. First he creates creatures (people) who are imperfect and can't follow the rules. Then he sends his son to die an agonizing death so that these people can then be forgiven. Why do they need forgiveness for being and doing what they were created to do and be?
This is one of the reasons I went screaming away from the Catholic church. No God of mine is this petty, spiteful and downright mean! How can you put human traits on the divine, not to mention the very WORST human traits??
My UU church is in the deep south and more than half NOT christian
That's great. I did think it was odd when I moved here that it was not the case here as it is in most other cities.
tough choice, that. Intolerance and anger or acceptance and love. hmmm...
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