Creatine (and other supplements) and Weight Loss

Hi everyone.

Did any of you use Creatine while dieting? What are the effects?

I workout intensively 3 days a week, i run 30/40 minutes 3 days a week and I have a weekly 5-a-side soccer match every saturday. I do not use any supplements now, but I would like to know if there are any that would make my life easier and make me reach my goals faster. I am looking to loose about 20pounds of fat.

any tips?

Is creatine a bad choice?

thanks!

I've never used creatine but considered it for a while. Here are the responses I got when I asked about this in the weightlifting group:  http://caloriecount.about.com/creatine-gt99-3 2

Creatine's main function is to increase the amount of water you store in your muscles in order to promote faster recovery. This concept pretty clearly is not tailored towards losing weight but rather increasing strength. 

If you're looking for a purely weight loss inspired supplement, look into thermogenics: http://www.gnc.com/family/index.jsp?categoryI d=2173984&cp=2167100  Thermogenics basically just raise your core temperature while you work out and rapidly convert food and fat into energy.

Hope this helps!

Eric

any weight training thrown in there?

whey protein is supposed to be good too.

Whey protein is totally different from creatine and thermogenics and other products which are designed as simple supplements rather than something with nutritional value. Whey protein is an extremely efficient form of protein which is absorbed rapidly by the muscles and is therefore primarily taken immediately following a workout.

Adding whey protein after workouts can only help. That goes for anyone who works out on even a semi-regular basis as it helps develop and retain muscle and muscle subsequently burns fat.

If I had to recommend any type of supplement/protein regimen to someone who is strictly trying to slim down or "cut", I would say that the hands down best combination would be a thermogenics product before workouts and a dose of whey protein after.

so lipoxyl ultra and some whey protein

you recommand any brand in particular for someone like me?

Can't speak to what brand of thermogenics since I've never used any but as for whey protein I've tried 3-4 brands and "Optimum Nutrition 100% Whey" is the leanest/tastiest/best in my opinion.

Alright thanks. I'll have a look.

anyone on creatine?

I'm sceptical of the utility of thermocenics in general - after the ban on ephedra they're mostly just cayenne pepper and green tea extract, and you can get the same effect for a lott less by being liberal with your spices and drinking more tea.

 And even ephedra, in the best case scenario, would only burn about 500-800calories a week extra, basically giving you room for a small cheeseburger if that.

 The only industry that lies worse than the supplement industry is the cosmetics industry - there's very, very few supplements that have any real science backing them.

 Creatine is in fact one of the few - it does increase power output and muscular endurance somewhat. Only by a few percentage points mind you, but those few points can make a slight difference for you by allowing you to work harder and expend more calories. Though I've seen one study that demonstrated that it became significantly harder to lose body fat while on creatine, so I really don't know what to make of it for dieters in general.

We talked about creatine substances in my animal physiology class. The biggest problem with taking creatine substances is that your body quits making creatine on its own, because it gets all it needs from what you are taking. This means (1) you're not actually getting much benefit from taking it and (2) if you stop taking it, you feel weaker. This makes many people think "Oh, it must have been helping me all along." Instead, you have dropped below the level you were at before you started taking it.

I don't know much about ephedra at all given that it's banned and as such I've never looked into it, but I'd be hesitant to say thermogenics are useless now that the ban is in effect. Studies have shown that cayenne pepper, one of the main ingredients in most thermogenic products, can raise the body's metabolism by over 20%.( http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/article s/thermogenic-supplements-weight-loss.html )

I can understand how critics of these products comprised primarily of spices and herbs may be skeptical, but the main critique of "just eat spicier things" is way off base. In the study quoted on the site above, the equivalent of 5 grams of cayenne pepper was used in each dosage. I for one know for a fact that I would be incapable of choking down 5 grams of raw cayenne pepper with every meal without also pounding down a ton of milk to neutralize the burn

Putting these ingredients into a pill form saves the user first from having to conceive of ways to ingest absurdly spicy foods without ruining their meal, and secondly, it saves them from having to find some of the more obscure ingredients in stores. One of the most touted ingredients in thermogenics is "Bitter Orange". By encapsulating this Vietnamese fruit in pill form along with the cayenne pepper, tea extracts, etc., it creates a combination of supplements that are proven to increase metabolic rates a great deal while making it easy to obtain and consume.

Yes everything that goes into a thermogenic product is also available on the open market in a variety of forms, but what you pay for is the ease that comes with taking this supplement versus tracking down and eating/drinking every individual ingredient.

Like I said before, I've never tried them so I can only base my opinion on what studies tell me, but so far I've seen little to no evidence which claims they are inefficient.

Eric

Original Post by ncxcrnnr:

I don't know much about ephedra at all given that it's banned and as such I've never looked into it, but I'd be hesitant to say thermogenics are useless now that the ban is in effect. Studies have shown that cayenne pepper, one of the main ingredients in most thermogenic products, can raise the body's metabolism by over 20%.( http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/article s/thermogenic-supplements-weight-loss.html )

My favorite line from that article "Burning fat has become a popular approach to weight loss". Um, there was a time when fat burning wasn't a popular approach to weight loss? what was the popular approach back then? 

The 20% increase in metabolism was an immediate effect and according to the paper referenced in the article a lower (~7-17%) increase was present at 11 minutes after injestion.  The paper also states that any increase in metabolism was only sustained for 30 minutes.  If we assume that the 20% increase is sustained for a full 30 minutes and a person burns 2400 cals/day then the 30 minute increase in metabolism would result in an additonal calorie burn of 10 calories/dose (and it would be less than that since we know that the 20% increase in metabolism doens't last for a full 30 minutes)

The key thing to remember however, is that cayenne pepper is only one of dozens of ingredients in this type of supplement. While it's true that this particular ingredient has a much shorter period of efficacy, as a whole thermogenics have consistently proven to burn fat.  http://www.prosourceblog.com/2008/02/01/the-n ext-generation-of-thermogenic-fat-burners/

That article examines various new thermogenics ingredients hitting the market and cites studies for nearly all of them. Caralluma Fimbriata for instance doubled the fat loss of overweight individuals over 60 days. 

I'm not claiming every ingredient in these products is the be-all and end-all answer, just that as a whole, when thermogenics are taken, fat tends to be lost faster.

My anatomy and physiology teacher taught us that creatine supplements are junk.  They go into the stomach it never gets absorbed into our other and heads straight to the kidneys to be peed out.  On top of that creatine itself is found within the muscles to be used.  If you start an intense workout, 10-15 seconds later your creatine phosphate that was feeding ADP to make ATP will be all used up.  It is an anaerobic process so it will be used during anaerobic exercises.  Your creatine phosphate will be made again after giving your body a chance to rest.  Creatine supplements are a great industry for gaining money, not muscle.

ok im probably skeptical enough to probably not try creatine.

and really the most important things are the basics. a caloric deficit with good nutrition including the right protein, carb & fat ratio. if you dont have that down, then i would concentrate on that first. and weight lifting is a nice little way to lose some fat as well.

more muscle means a higher bmr, the ability to kick the ball harder & run faster. i can't personally vouch for the kicking the ball harder, but i do know having stronger legs helps with running.

 Well, then, both your teachers need to go back to school and retake human physiology and biochem, because they both obviously flunked.

 Both of  them confuses creatine with steroids, and one confuses it with vitamin C or something as well,  but they both have no idea what they're talking about. Creatine is the most studied supplement in sports science history and people like your teachers who talk with pretended knowledge about things they have no clue about annoy me. Possibly even more than personal trainers who talk about non-physiological impossibilities like lengthening muscles, "tone", or women bulking up from lifting weights.

 It's not a drug, it's not possible to downregulate the body's own production of it, and there's no question that it plays an important role in regenerating muscular ATP during anaerobic exercise, increasing strength and performance for power sports. A small but significant percentage of the population are creatine non-responders due to various factors to do with bio-availability and transport enzymes, but both your teachers need to go back to school and retake those subjects they flunked the first time around. That the increased anaerobic endurance and performance from increased ATP regeneration doesn't matter to endurance sports doesn't mean that there's no benefit to power sports like lifting, throwing and sprinting, and anyone who claims anything different have no idea what they're talking about.

 And yes, thermogenics work, kinda sorta and for some values of work - but the ingredients that go into one $60 bottle of hydroxycut, you can buy on the open market for $5, total. Supplement companies and their 'proprietary blends' are notorious for pixie-dusting ingredients you need grams per dose to have an effect of into their recipes - one gram of active ingredient per pound of filler is not unusual.

 And supplement companies are also infamous for taking studies out of context and not quoting the whole thing - like Sully showed. About the only supplement that's even remotely validated through repeated studies is green tea extract, where you can maybe increase your RMR an extra 4% - 40-60cal/day - most of the rest of the supposed fat-burners have no effect in humans. Synephrine for example, IIRC have shown to have a marked positive effect on brown adipose tissue increasing both fat mobilization and thermogenesis when given to study subjects - but humans don't have brown adipose tissue, dogs do. But that doesn't bother the supplement companies who don't bother to disclose the species of the study subjects validating synephrine, eh? In humans, there's mainly negative effects - or would be, if the supplement company bothered to put in enough of the stuff to have any effect at all.

 'course, most of these products do work for some values of work, a lot of them are choc'full of caffeine which is both an ergogenic, a thermogenic, and lipolytic in humans, and some of them throw in useful amounts of green tea/cayenne pepper on top for that extra boost.

  Well - you make up your own mind about what you want to spend your money on, of course. Just keep in mind that thanks to effing Orrin Hatch, supplement companies no longer have to prove the safety of their stuff to the FDA before putting it on the market, it's the FDA's responsibility to prove it unsafe and ban it. Don't know about you, but I don't want to be a human test subject for two guys with a failed biochem degree in a basement in Utah somewhere.

My teacher has a PhD in human physiology with emphasis on nutrition and exercise. What are your credentials?

Why is not possible to downregulate the body's creatine production? Back up what you say with some kind of information, not just blanket statements. You may be correct, but I would like to know the physiology behind your answer.

Also, there is no need for rudeness. We are supposed to be helping each other and providing the information that we know. Please consider that in your next responses.

 You may wish to peruse International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: creatine supplementation and exercise, J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007; 4: 6.

 And a few selected papers:

Is the use of oral creatine supplementation safe? Bizzarini E, De Angelis L. School of Sports Medicine, University of Trieste, Trieste, Italy.J Sports Med Phys Fitness.2004 Dec;44(4):411-6.

1: Sports Med. 2000 Sep;30(3):155-70. Adverse effects of creatine supplementation: fact or fiction? Poortmans JR, Francaux M. Physiological Chemistry, Higher Institute of Physical Education and Readaptation, Free University of Brussels, Bruxelles, Belgium.

1: Metabolism. 2001 Dec;50(12):1429-34. Comparison of creatine ingestion and resistance training on energy expenditure and limb blood flow. Arciero PJ, Hannibal NS 3rd, Nindl BC, Gentile CL, Hamed J, Vukovich MD. Exercise Science Department, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, USA.

1: Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001 Feb;33(2):183-8. Creatine supplementation and health variables: a retrospective study.Schilling BK, Stone MH, Utter A, Kearney JT, Johnson M, Coglianese R, Smith L, O'Bryant HS, Fry AC, Starks M, Keith R, Stone ME. Exercise Science, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC, USA.

Because only half or less of human creatine levels is naturally synthesized at the best of times, the rest comes from your food, and the enzymes and coenzymes involved as the rate limiting steps in creatine synthesis are also rate limiting reaction substrates in other enzymatic reactions and are naturally present in the body at levels higher than what is needed for creatine production. Therefore the body will not downregulate the production of the enzymes involved, because they are still used for other purposes within the body's biochemistry.

 Your teacher's opinion is not supported in the literature - having a PhD doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about outside of his specalization. 

thanks for the links.

thanks for the replies guys