Why are dairy products, honey, bad?

I have a question for vegans. It's a real question - I'm not being snotty.

Why don't you eat milk, cheese, honey, etc? Eating these foods aren't hurting the animal it came from, so I'm wondering what the big deal is? Eating cheese doesn't mean you killed the cow, right? The one I really don't understand is honey. The bees aren't mistreated, they roam free - we just take their leftover yummy stuff.

Can someone please explain? I'd really like to know.

Vegans don't eat anything that comes from animals, at all.  It really depends on personal philosphy.

mmmmm - what's the philosophy? Why is eating something that came from an animal bad?

I'm a vegetarian, not a vegan, but do know that the cows that provide milk often have poor living conditions and are mistreated, while their calves are given up to the slaughter house to be served up as veal so that they don't take their mother's milk.

As for bees, believe it or not, they can be mistreated as well.  They don't all just live in someone's backyard peacefully making extra honey for us.  There are large bee farms that sometimes poison them, burn their hives with them still inside, use dangerous pesticides, etc.  Basically, any time that you harvest from an animal or insect for the masses, there is some mistreatment and even what they consider "collateral" death.

Again, I'm not a vegan so hopefully someone else here can give more insight.....

OK - didn't know that about the bees. I envisioned happy bees! That helps some. Anybody else?

If you have some time... Here
It gives quite a bite of information why honey is often not considered vegan. But reality is that there's a huge controversy about that, and it ends up being more of a personal choice for vegans.

And while I'm at it... here for a bit about dairy.

The milk think is way worse than I imagined. You may have cured me. I had no idea we were manipulating their bodies like that.

Sorry, but I just don't care enough about bees to worry about the honey thing. In fact, I hate bees! lol. No - just kidding, I should say I'm scared to death of bees.

Thanks lunamagae - that was very helpful and educational. I have gained new insight and finally understand the milk/cheese problem.

Milk and Cheese is just disguisting... Even if you didn't consider the fact that Dairy farms treat their cows horribly...

Milk has all sorts of crap in it... Blood, Pus, Bacteria, 58 Hormones... In the 50s they had a problem with finding Radioactive Fallout from Nukes in Milk from where the cows had eaten it...

Not to mention, Milk is 80% or more Water... Considering Milk prices, that's really expensive water...

Well, it's illegal to sell unpasteurized milk. Plus I grew up on a farm, so I'm not buying the whole blood and pus thing. No way would that cow be allowed to milk if blood and pus were coming out!

Yes, there are hormones and the radioactive fallout is probably true. However, if there was radioactivity in that area it would show up in everything, including fruits, veggies, and grain.

I suppose it is disgusting that we're drinking what is supposed to be food for a baby cow. Don't sell it too hard hybrids05, I'm already halfway there.

Some additional info on the effects of dairy, especially too much dairy, on health.

Interesting - thanks. I'd read about the ill effects on your bones before, but this was a lot more info.

After being vegetarian for 3 years, I became vegan 10 years ago when I learned that picking and choosing which animal products I considered "ok" was really turning a blind eye to the bigger picture of animal abuse and environmental damage. Egg-laying hens are subjected to the same horrible living conditions as those turned into "chicken" people eat. Milk comes from cows kept in conditions just like those who become "beef." In addition, for cows to produce milk (I don't say "give," since I don't think they are "giving" it to us - we are taking it from them), they have to be lactating, which means that at some point in the recent past, they gave birth to a calf. Those calves have several fates: future dairy cows, beef cows, or veal calves (which even people who eat meat often avoid due to the extreme cruelty these animals endure during their short lives). As hard as it was at first, I couldn't let an inconvenience at the grocery store allow me to continue purchasing and consuming products that treated animals as commodities and caused so much needless suffering.

I usually stay out of this forum because of some of the venom I have seen in here but this subject got me to come in and read.  I am now so confused I am ashamed to admit it.  I thought being vegetarian or vegan was a choice made by people who thought it was a healthier way of living.  Now after reading these posts am I to understand that it is because of the way animals are treated and abused?  So if you raise your own then it is ok to eat animal products?  Please educate me, gently though, I hate to get into a fight over my ignorance.

Josal, I agree completely. As passionate as I am about the topic, I find anything other than it completely counterproductive, frustrating, and feeds into the "tree-hugging, bunny-lover vegetarian" stereotype to criticize and condemn people for not believing exactly the same thing as someone else.

For me, I started on the vegetarian/vegan path when I learned about the animal suffering that goes into food production. Since then, I have learned quite a bit about the environmental effects of large-scale animal farms, social implications of meat-based diets (we take lots of grain that could be fed to people and feed it to cows to produce beef that feeds a lot less people than the grain could), in addition to the health reasons for eating the way I do.

I know some people believe what is wrong is the way animals are treated, and if that changed, they would find it acceptable to eat meat. I don't believe animals are here for us to use for food, especially in the age we are in now with so many other ways to meet our nutritional needs. No matter how "humane" animals were treated, I would not eat meat. I put "humane" in quotes because the goal is still ultimately to kill them for food. I wouldn't do it to my dog, and just because WE view other types of animals as less valuable doesn't mean that their lives are somehow worth less.

I think the most important thing is to raise people's awareness of the issues. A lot of people simply don't think about where the food on their plate comes from. That also includes topics such as buying organic produce, local produce, etc., but that is probably a separate post.

I'm so glad I checked this thread! Like most people, I had an idea of, but didn't like to think about where these things come from. To think it's that bad and the negative health effects on top of it... When I get home from work, I'm throwing out all dairy products.

josal, people can be vegetarian for all sorts of reasons. In my case, I just don't think my body is worth another being's life. I'm concerned with how animals are raised and kept, but for me that's a secondary issue. For instance, I go out  of my way to find eggs from hens that were well-treated, and pay a lot more for them, but if my Mom serves me a cake with eggs in it I don't ask if she used free-range eggs.

This thread has made me think about dairy. I consume a LOT of dairy products and I'd rather they came from happier cows.

Health is a non-starter. My parents are health fanatics, and my Dad hunts and brings home a lot of game. Venison, for instance, has a small fraction of the fat in beef. I think it's better (ethically) to eat venison than supermarket meat but now I'm eating neither. But in most respects I don't eat as healthily as my parents. My main complaint is that they are likely to serve too big a portion of meat and too small of veggies - I felt this way before I turned veg (which is less than 2 months ago).

Thanks guys, I often wondered this. i thought it was more like humans shouldnt impact of nature, which I didnt really get.

What if you had your own pet cow? Do you think some vegans would have milk then? As they could treat it well? Its so sad how horrible these animals are treated. When i look at the meat I'm eating, sometimes I think about the fact that it was alive. And personally (and I know many peope cant) I can accept that part, but now I'm starting to question they way they are treated

I think another interesting point is humans are the only animal which continue to drink milk after age 2.

Once again thanks for the info. Its prompted me to think about this a bit more

Good point, red_herring... not only that, but as far as I know, humans are the only species that drinks the milk of another species. Seems kinda weird and gross to think about it that way.

I definitely recommend the book The China Study to anyone who would like to learn a bit more about how protein, especially dairy and eggs, can effect the body.  It's a very interesting read!

As for me, I'm not vegan, nor true vegetarian.  I am a pescetarian that tries to eat as little dairy and eggs as possible.  And I make a big effort to ensure the little dairy I get is organic, or minimally is rBGH free.  And that is for health more than anything else, because I think conventional dairy is quite unhealthy.

Thank you so much for the information.  I have lived with people who had their own animals and I kid you not the chickens used to come up on the porch and lay eggs next to the door like they were offering them to the owners as thanks.  I never got the feeling that the chickens or cows were forced to give of themselves.  But I can see how commercially produced products would give that feeling and energy.

bees have actually been mysteriously dissapearing recently. see article. something is happening to them and there may be a good chance we are to blame. we just have to be very careful whenever we use an animal to accomplish some goal. all too often even the tinest of creatures is mistreated and the consequences could be serious. in the case of the bees that means fewer crops will get pollinated - resulting in a smaller food supply in general (not just honey.)