Why are dairy products, honey, bad?

I have a question for vegans. It's a real question - I'm not being snotty.

Why don't you eat milk, cheese, honey, etc? Eating these foods aren't hurting the animal it came from, so I'm wondering what the big deal is? Eating cheese doesn't mean you killed the cow, right? The one I really don't understand is honey. The bees aren't mistreated, they roam free - we just take their leftover yummy stuff.

Can someone please explain? I'd really like to know.

Yes, the colony collapse disorder ... a lot of people at the apple orchards are starting to panic about this up here in Washington ...

Josal, I tend to agree with you.  Often the rationale for veganism is living "cruelty-free."  I can certainly see the point with factory farms, but less so with the family cow.  I guess some people think that any kind of reliance on animals is exploitation and inherently bad.  But I believe in symbiosis ... the animal gets something, and so do I, making the relationship mutually beneficial for both of us.  I don't have any problem ethically with taking milk or eggs from an animal that you raise, shelter, feed and protect from predators.

If it isn't too off-topic, I'd love to know how pet ownership fits into the vegan lifestyle.  Pretty much every vegan I've ever known has had pets and I'm curious how that fits into the philosophy. 

Interesting thread.  I too avoid this forum as I'm never going to become a vegitarian let alone vegan... God created animals for us to consume.   I don't have a problem with that.   Expecially when Jesus himself fed people with Fish and bread.

Still I saw this thread at the bottom in the recent posts... so figured I'd check it out as one of my friends and his family have gone vegitarian... though they do drink milk.

http://www.goveg.com/veganism.asp  Check out the website. The website gives a lot of information on why many people choose to become vegan. Issues dealing with human health, the environment, animal rights, and animal welfare are all there. Listen to the audio recording of Vegetarianism in a Nutshell to hear directly from the one who talks about all those issues. He even has a FAQ section at the end that talks about his view point on God and creating animals. God may or may not have (I don't believe in him) created animals for us to consume... but does it mean that we can treat those animals any way we wish? I can't really understand why a "loving" God would allow such cruel treatment to his creations, I guess he's just discriminant when it comes to species. I also don't understand why a "loving" God would allow the animals he created for us to become our food to feel both physical and emotional pain. Does he have a fetish for animal cruelty? Is it ok for me to eat any pets that you have? or just the ones that come from farms and where I can't see the slaughter?

Let me just say how happy I am that this thread took like it has! I continue to be interested in what everone has to say. I guess the answer isn't going to be as cut and dry as I was hoping.

I think the Bees are making a stand. :) Maybe they formed a union.

A question, if Bees are used to pollinate harvests, which I didn't realize, then does that mean no matter what I eat there is always going to be some form of cruelty involved? I don't know, maybe some don't see using bees that way as cruel, but maybe it is and maybe that is why they left.

Ick, I hate it when people say "God gave up animals to consume".
If you want to get crazy about all that religion shit, "God" created Adam, and gave Adam a giant GARDEN with fruits and vegetables, but if that's not enough he "placed Adam in charge of the animals".
But being in charge of the animals doesn't mean he was allowed to slaughter them in mass quantities in which every animal suffers a sick and dirty death while also spewing waste into our lovely dieing environment.

If you believe in that crap, the bible does say God gave animals to us to USE, but it explicitly states we are still not to ABUSE them or the environment... which is exactly what we are doing. So guess what, if you eat industry-produced meat, you are sinning acourding to your Bible.

Tink - Most commercial fruit and vegetable production relies on domesticated honeybees for pollenation.  I forget the exact statistics, but it's somewhere around 75% of our domestic produce.  It's necessary because there are very few wild honeybees left, and because they need a high concentration of pollenators in a small area (e.g., 1 hive per acre for apple trees). 

Probably the best bet for produce is smaller farmers, especially local ones that you can ask about their practices.  You might also inquire about pest control, as a common organic method is introducing predator insects like ladybugs or praying mantises, which are often grown commercially in large factories.

I don't have too many qualms over honey, but I still don't eat it. I just wont freak out if there happens to be honey in my food (although I'm good at checking.)
Bees are meant to fly and go from flower to flower, so if they're polonating for the fruit and veggie companies... then the bees are happy, right? Doing what bees do? Yay bees!

You've got me thinking... I've been reading up on dairy farm practises. The usual way of doing business is Not Good. But I'm a total dairy addict. I drink 2 litres/quarts of milk a day! And that doesn't include cheese, cottage cheese, and yogurt.

I told myself... OK, I just quit smoking Monday, maybe this is a Bad Time for another change. But the dairy thing has been bugging me. Organic milk is better - at least organic farmers try to keep their cows as healthy as possible without drugs since a cow loses certification if she's given antibiotics and stuff. And (at least in Canada) organic cows must be let out and pastured if possible. But there's no way I could afford it with the amount of milk I drink! Maybe soy milk, but that's still too expensive. I'll just have to cut down.

So I'm starting with not drinking milk with every meal (and snack!) but only certain things (peanut butter!) - we'll see how it goes. I've been vegetarian less than 2 months and I'm making an awful lot of changes.

That's awesome. You were drinking a TON of milk! Wow! I thought I used to drink too much!
And not only are the practices bad for diary cows, milk is just not meant for adults. Think about it, are you a baby? The answer is no. (we wean off milk when we're 2).
Now, are you a cow? No? So... are you a baby cow?
Baby cows grow 2,000 lbs (not joking) in 1 year because they drink milk- milk obviously has tons of fat that is taken out at factories, but it has natural cow hormones (not man made or injected) that promote weight gain while getting the baby cow addicted to milk so it keeps drinking to grow and inevitably carry on it's genes!
So, while that was long winded and unnessesary, you're on your way to a healthier (and skinnier) life. :D Yaaaay for you!!!

Flamel, your concern is honorable and it is great to see that you are thinking of changing your habits in order to ease dairy cow suffering- as a vegan I am totally on board with that however I hope that you listen to your gut and make your changes slowly.

Give yourself a year to quit smoking, switch entirely over to vegetarianism and cut your dairy consumption, that may be the very best way for you to accomplish your goals without buckling under the pressure of these three new lifestyle changes.

Normally it's not that hard for people to go cold turkey with dietary changes, but with your HUMONGOUS task of quitting smoking thrown in there too I would definitely reccommend going slow and steady.

Good luck and congratulations on deciding to kick the cigarette habit!!!
:o)

For me, it's not just the health and animal issues but also socio-economic concerns over the meat and dairy industries in general.  I hate the fall into the hippie stereotype of criticizing the "big, bad corporations", but I think some of the injustices within those particular industries are especially wrong.

Hope no one gets offended by this cartoon, but I thought it explained the way some veg'ns feel and if nothing else, maybe you will get a little guilty laugh out it. :) No offense meant at all.

Oops, here's the link to the picture.

Oh, I love that cartoon! PERFECT. Hahahaha, made me giggle. That's what I tell everyone. Eating meat might be natural (even if unhealthy and unethical) but drinking milk? Pfffffft!

Oh yeah, I randomly found this and thought of this thread ( and my little religious angry post)

"The Bible says Adam and Eve were vegetarians before committing the first sin; they were allowed to kill animals for food only after they were cast out of the Garden of Eden."

This is just for my future arguement-reference. ;)

I was looking in a 110 year old dictionary/encyclopedia and found that vegetarianism hadn't changed much. The motives had, though - it was very common back then to eat veg in a desire to live like Adam and Eve...

flamel- that's really interesting!

but where'd you find a 110 yr old dictionary anyway?!

err... I inherited it - all four volumes.

i guess im a lil late on this one but I just wanted to say that because of this thread I did a little reading about the conditions on dairy farms and stuff about honey bees and honey "production" and I was seriously depressed. However thereafter I found that there are animal friendly dairy farms and that there is eco/bio cow-friendly milk and free range eggs n stuff were always a must anyway..but im looking deeper, yes cows are mistreated and so are bees but guys so are humans..go animal friendly, go biological or even vegan- but go people friendly and choose fair trade products. Ive been doing that and it feels AWESOME! and its not as expensive anymore..I just wanted to add that :)