Delete please

as I said, HK - I personally didn't snoop. Was just exploring some thoughts. :)

Yes, Pg. Exactly.

It isn't a commodity to be traded, or more accurately negotiated.

 

Nomo: Yes, I get what you are saying but...

If your SO does cheat, it can go one of 2 ways. Either he owns up to it, or he tries to hide it.

So say he owns up - what's the result? Do you leave him for a cheater or praise him for telling the truth?

Say he tries to hide it - how do you know you've been cheated on if he's a good liar? Are you happier not knowing, or finding out the truth via 'snooping'?

I think the situation is illogical all the way around.

However, if you look at trust as Pg has decsribed it - suddenly the other person's actions and decisions no longer have the power to hurt you, because you know, no matter what, you'll be okay. You can recognize that his decisions are his, alone.

(still not quite saying it the way I am thinking it)

makes sense to me, 'gator.

when you take that perspective, you don't have to try to predict whether or not he'll do it again.  you just have to ask yourself, can i live with this situation or not? 

Yes. Thank you!

I think if people learned to re-calibrate their perception of trust, a lot more marriages would survive.

yeah...you know, it also means that you don't have to punish him.  rather, it means that punishment and resentment are irrational.  i can't punish you for my decision to trust.  can i?.

this is just individuation.  has anyone read The Passionate Marriage by Schnarch?  i actually haven't, but...well, my ideas aren't that original ;)

Original Post by kathygator:

Nomo: Yes, I get what you are saying but...

If your SO does cheat, it can go one of 2 ways. Either he owns up to it, or he tries to hide it.

So say he owns up - what's the result? Do you leave him for a cheater or praise him for telling the truth?

Say he tries to hide it - how do you know you've been cheated on if he's a good liar? Are you happier not knowing, or finding out the truth via 'snooping'?

I think the situation is illogical all the way around.

However, if you look at trust as Pg has decsribed it - suddenly the other person's actions and decisions no longer have the power to hurt you, because you know, no matter what, you'll be okay. You can recognize that his decisions are his, alone.

(still not quite saying it the way I am thinking it)

This is what people have to decide.  Can I tolerate cheating? What are my deal-breakers? 

In scenario #1, for me, I think 99% of the time, I leave him.  I'm not saying 100% definitely just because I know I can't imagine all scenarios.  But I'm saying it's highly unlikely that I'll choose to continue the relationship given the breaking of his commitment to me.  I will probably forgive him. But that doesn't mean I want to make my life with him.

In scenario #2, that's the situation I described in my earlier post on page 1.  I was suspicious but without actual proof.  I tried to snoop, but karma called in all bets.  In that situation, I just made mental notes of things that bothered me and finally I went ahead and broke it off.  I never had actual evidence.  I didn't need actual evidence to follow my head, heart and gut.  What if I was wrong?  Look, even if he wasn't cheating, the relationship wasn't working.  So it was right to get out.

I left my ex-husband (not the bf i described in earlier incidence) because he was abusing me, not because he was cheating on me.  But I'd have left him if he'd cheated too.

I am not all that jealous.  I am not automatically suspicious.  I do trust with the acknowledgment that I can be hurt.  I have been hurt, but I'm still here and I'm still fine. 

 

 

 

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

I was suspicious but without actual proof.  I tried to snoop, but karma called in all bets.  In that situation, I just made mental notes of things that bothered me and finally I went ahead and broke it off.  I never had actual evidence.  I didn't need actual evidence to follow my head, heart and gut.  What if I was wrong?  Look, even if he wasn't cheating, the relationship wasn't working.  So it was right to get out.

that's the thing, right?  if you have that much doubt, then his behaviour is irrelevant.  your doubt is what really matters.

Gotcha, Nomo. :) Wasn't trying to confront you about your choices, just trying to better define the dynamic in my own thoughts. :)

No haven't read that Pg.

*googles definition for individuation*

yes, but i don't think my doubts were unfounded

some people have doubts because they are insecure and nothing the person does is going to assuage that

the kind of red flags i'm talking about were things like him keeping me waiting for 3 hours on a friday night when we'd made plans to go out - stuff like that - or like i mentioned earlier, a work-related event at 9pm on a friday night and when i finally found a bottle of vodka he'd hidden under my bathroom sink, i finally just said to myself, this is the final straw - i'm not willing to date an active alcoholic

i do try to live a reason-based, reality-based life

Perhaps that is the key. The process that leads to "I'm not willing to date [be with] an active ________"

Original Post by dalmalama:

Original Post by coffincritter:

I will check out a potential partner by googling them  

this creeps me out the MOST! that's cyber-stalking! and totally, completely, 100% nuts! i'm just glad that i'm google-proof in case some guy gets that idea in the future. (i know b/c i've googled myself just to see what'd pop up. thankfully, i don't exist on the web!)

Why is that cyber-stalking? I'm not hacking into their private accounts. Most people have a public blog or personal website that's MEANT to convey information. I'm only looking at things that they CHOOSE to make public, livejournals, myspace profiles, etc. People who meet me or see my band are always contacting me via my (public)livejournal, homepage, or band's myspace and the majority of them are not stalkerish or threatening. You choose to make yourself private on the web, but many people, particularly those with creative projects, do not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber-stalking

Here, why don't you educate yourself on how cyberstalking is actually DEFINED before making accusations about it, or value judgements like "creepy" and "nuts".

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

yes, but i don't think my doubts were unfounded

some people have doubts because they are insecure and nothing the person does is going to assuage that

the kind of red flags i'm talking about were things like him keeping me waiting for 3 hours on a friday night when we'd made plans to go out - stuff like that - or like i mentioned earlier, a work-related event at 9pm on a friday night and when i finally found a bottle of vodka he'd hidden under my bathroom sink, i finally just said to myself, this is the final straw - i'm not willing to date an active alcoholic

i do try to live a reason-based, reality-based life

i'm not challenging the reason or reality of doubt, though.  to me, doubt is a real, concrete thing.  this ties in with my spiritual beliefs, actually: i believe that many of our emotions are based on perception of real things that just don't happen to be measurable with the five senses recognized by science.  so while the "red flags" you speak of were scientifically measurable, your doubt was just as valid without them.

i agree that neuroticism can interfere with this, but i think we can learn to trust our other senses, if we apply the wisdom of our experience ;)

re #54

i see where you're going and i do agree

i've just known an awful lot of people who are loaded down with self doubt/insecurity - i can imagine that if you don't really trust yourself, it will be that much harder to trust someone else  :/  how awful it must be to feel that way and how awful to be in a relationship with someone like this - someone who wants to track your every move, your every conversation, and control you - ya no thanks.

 

absolutely!  that's what i said before: when i choose to trust someone else, i'm really trusting myself to handle whatever happens.  if i can't do that - forget it.

i agree to a degree: you must first be able to trust yourself, but to me, having the confidence to handle whatever happens is different than placing trust in someone else.

I consider myself to be very confident, and never had any reason not to trust anything my wife ever did or said.  nor was i a jealous person.

But then I came across an email which gave me reason to doubt.  So I snooped--heck yeah, I snooped--and was not pleased with what I'd found.

I felt completely blindsided.

When I confronted my wife with the deleted emails, she got very angry (honestly, the nerve!) and said I had no right to go behind her back; the emails were private.  She said I had no right to invade her privacy.

I said I did not realize she had the need for that kind of privacy in our relationship.

Am I proud that I snooped?  No way.

Am I glad that I did?  You betcha!

Original Post by coffincritter:

Original Post by dalmalama:

Original Post by coffincritter:

I will check out a potential partner by googling them  

this creeps me out the MOST! that's cyber-stalking! and totally, completely, 100% nuts! i'm just glad that i'm google-proof in case some guy gets that idea in the future. (i know b/c i've googled myself just to see what'd pop up. thankfully, i don't exist on the web!)

 

Why is that cyber-stalking? I'm not hacking into their private accounts. Most people have a public blog or personal website that's MEANT to convey information. I'm only looking at things that they CHOOSE to make public, livejournals, myspace profiles, etc. People who meet me or see my band are always contacting me via my (public)livejournal, homepage, or band's myspace and the majority of them are not stalkerish or threatening. You choose to make yourself private on the web, but many people, particularly those with creative projects, do not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber-stalking

Here, why don't you educate yourself on how cyberstalking is actually DEFINED before making accusations about it, or value judgements like "creepy" and "nuts".

 I actually googled someone I started to date. He was a  (former) lawyer, and I found out he had been dis-barred for domestic violence a few years back.  We talked about it, and I found out after getting to know him that he had a really misogynistic attitude about women. I don't think it hurt to know that information before I fell in love with him or got way too involved. It's not cyber-stalking if it is on the internet. It's public knowledge.

So the question becomes, Bootle, what did you learn from the experience? Because ultimately its all about how we as individuals function within the relationship, not whether our actions are justifiable or not.

 

in my life, i have never 'come across an email' of someone else

just sitting there eating breakfast and an email pops up out of nowhere... what? how did i figure out her password and log into her email account that happen?

 

Yeah nomo, I never had one of my husbands e-mails fall accidentally from the pocket of his dirty jeans.