Economic Stimulus Plan

 I know they are going to be voting on the new economic stimulus plan today.  (they might have by now) But, does anyone know, in real terms, what is being proposed? How is it supposed to help the citizens?  

Agree. Create a situation where dissent is seen as partisanship. As has happened with the House vote.

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

Original Post by makettle:

akgal is right. The Republicans have no room to talk. Where was all bipartisan stuff while GW was in office? Have you seen the latest Gallup poll that gives the Republicans only 5 solid states in their favor? Changes will be made either with or without them, they can get on board or atrophy and become irrelevant, they have a choice. All Repubs voted against the stimulus bill in the House today; bipartisan my aunt Fanny.

I was greatly disappointed to find that Obama had given in on the contraceptive issue. Funding for contraceptives is a type of stimulus even if the right wing does not believe so. A woman can never be financially stable nor secure until she has full control over her reproductive ability. When we as a country remove this stability from women in poverty we are in fact further endangering the very economy we hope to save. Contraception is not shameful but normal and necessary. Those funds also would have provided health care jobs that are now either non-existant or will be soon. It took less than a week before the Republicans brought back this class warfare/wedge issue BS they are so famous for.

It didn't bother me that the GOP asked for the funding for family planning to be removed.  What bothered me was that they got what they asked for and then decided to vote against it anyway.

The dems can pass funding for family planning in another bill if they still want to. 

The concession was made in good faith in order to get some bipartisan good will going.  Trust the house GOP to take that good will and piss on it.

 Actually, I think family planning funding was removed because it received media attention and people asked themselves, "how will contraceptives help to create jobs and help stimulate our economy"?  There were a few other line items that were thrown out as well. 

This "stimulus plan" is supposed to jump start our economy, right?  Well the government wouldn't be able to spend at least one-fourth of a proposed $825 billion economic stimulus plan until after 2010.   The government would spend about $26 billion of the money this year and $110 billion more next year.  About $103 billion would be spent in 2011, while $53 billion would be spent in 2012 and $63 billion between 2013 and 2019.   How will this help us now??  The answer, it won't.  That's why Republicans and some Dems are causing such a fuss.  This is a disaster.

I really do not see what the republicans are gaining by all of them rejecting this package.  I read that they wanted to make sure that the media knew this was not a rejection of obama but was directed at pelosi.  Huh?  The country is losing thousands of jobs reported daily, and they are playing games like this - trying to get back at pelosi?  Can't stand pelosi either but ....really.

Original Post by crazineko:

 

This "stimulus plan" is supposed to jump start our economy, right?  Well the government wouldn't be able to spend at least one-fourth of a proposed $825 billion economic stimulus plan until after 2010.   The government would spend about $26 billion of the money this year and $110 billion more next year.  About $103 billion would be spent in 2011, while $53 billion would be spent in 2012 and $63 billion between 2013 and 2019.   How will this help us now??  The answer, it won't.  That's why Republicans and some Dems are causing such a fuss.  This is a disaster.

yeah, i see your point

the $5,000,000,000,000 trillion added to the national debt under the Bush administration - that was all great, wisely spent, obviously, because it got us where we are right now

but this economic stimulus - this is a disaster 

uh huh

this bipartisanship is tasty! yum.

btw, a lot of news organizations ran a story with a preliminary, incomplete report from the congressional budget office about the stimulus package and have been treating it as if it included the entire thing (misleading)

and note: fiscal year 2009 started on Oct. 1, 2008 - the CBO didn't calculate spending that will happen prior to Oct. 1, 2009 (fiscal year 2010) -- just didn't calculate it.

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

the $5,000,000,000,000 trillion added to the national debt under the Bush administration - that was all great, wisely spent, obviously, because it got us where we are right now

 Are you sure you don't mean $5 trillion or $5,000,000,000,000? $5,000,000,000,000 trillion would be $5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 and I'm not sure that amount of money exists?

You know.. I'm a democrat, but I'm not sure that this Economic Stimulis Plan really will do what we need it to do.

The reason being because this is a Financial Problem unlike any Financial Problem we've ever run into before.

First, we have the loss of consumer spending. That's part of what Obama's plan hopes to address. Give people jobs, give people money and they'll spend it.. except that there's no guarantee that they will spend it in the way we need them to spend it, because for that money to really be helpful, we need that money to stay IN America. It doesn't do most of us any good for us to have money and ship it overseas to China or Japan or whatever, which is almost certainly what we'd do if we got extra money.

Which leads to problem the second, the "Worldwide Economy". The fact that we import far more than we export. Especially to places like China that may be manipulating their currency to keep the trade deficit the way it is. There is nothing and I mean NOTHING Obama can do about this. This problem will remain until China changes and China's shown no interest in doing so, nor, for that matter, American Business (this whole Buy American part in Obama's Proposal is going over like a Lead Balloon)

And of course, we have the Wall Street problem. The Credit Crunch. The one that TARP was supposed to fix, but hasn't really done. The one that Obama's considering trying to help with the Bad Bank which is a disaster waiting to happen on it's own since either our chances to actually buy the mortgages at a rate which is values properly (not undervalued or overvalued, which would make windfall profits for banks that made bad choices and alot of anger from the citizenry.)

That, as I understand it, is the real facts here.
We'll be throwing money at the problem and HOPING that we can fix at least part of it so we can go and fix another part of it and hope the part that we fixed stays fixed (which it almost certainly won't since all these problems are so interrelated.)

HK: I think creating jobs will definitely help. Increases the tax base, prevents worsening unemployment. And it seems that the spending projects are short term, but immediate. Upgrading federal buildings for instance, puts people to work in a few different sectors, right away. Increasing Pell grants puts people in school, freeing up the job market for people who might not be able to return to school.

The Great Depression was actually worse than our current financial crisis. We now have some tools that legislators, bankers and economists didn't have then.

Original Post by kathygator:

HK: I think creating jobs will definitely help. Increases the tax base, prevents worsening unemployment. And it seems that the spending projects are short term, but immediate. Upgrading federal buildings for instance, puts people to work in a few different sectors, right away. Increasing Pell grants puts people in school, freeing up the job market for people who might not be able to return to school.

The Great Depression was actually worse than our current financial crisis. We now have some tools that legislators, bankers and economists didn't have then.

Most of those won't help NOW, Kathy.

Increasing Pell grants won't help put money in the economy NOW.
Upgrading Federal Buildings and Highways will help the Construction People (though how quick is arguable) and the Unions and that's it. If Buy American goes through.. it'll help American Iron and Steel Workers. If it doesn't, that money goes someplace else.

Those tools are useless, Kathy. The System is Broken, Kathy. It has been for a while, but all of these problems have smacked us here and now and put us where we are.

And whether or not this is worse than the Great Depression depends a great deal on how effective people are at picking up the pieces and figuring out how to move forward away from the practices that put us where we are.. the lack of oversight, the suspect money practices, the trade deficit with other countries.

I also think creating jobs will definitely help.  Part of the stimulus package deals with increasing grants to local governments, and I can say in our community that jobs are created as a result of that.  A long term solution - no, but it does keep money flowing into contractors, suppliers, etc.  This money stays in America.  I just don't see or haven't heard of an alternative solution other than some type of stimulus using government funds.

If the 2 parties truly work together than the potential for abuses are less and hopefully we have a more effective package.  However, this flat out no just doesn't work in the best interest of the U.S. imo 

I agree with this advice.

It sounds like the economic stimulus plan has incorporated some of Stiglitz's advice and not other of it.

The government is like a huge ship.  When you want to change course, it takes a while to make the turn.

We've lost 259,000 jobs since Jan. 1, 2009.

We lost 300,000 in Dec. and about that many in Nov.

1.2 million jobs were lost last year.

that's a lot of people that need new jobs - it's not going to happen overnight

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

Original Post by crazineko:

 

This "stimulus plan" is supposed to jump start our economy, right?  Well the government wouldn't be able to spend at least one-fourth of a proposed $825 billion economic stimulus plan until after 2010.   The government would spend about $26 billion of the money this year and $110 billion more next year.  About $103 billion would be spent in 2011, while $53 billion would be spent in 2012 and $63 billion between 2013 and 2019.   How will this help us now??  The answer, it won't.  That's why Republicans and some Dems are causing such a fuss.  This is a disaster.

yeah, i see your point

the $5,000,000,000,000 trillion added to the national debt under the Bush administration - that was all great, wisely spent, obviously, because it got us where we are right now

but this economic stimulus - this is a disaster 

uh huh

this bipartisanship is tasty! yum.

btw, a lot of news organizations ran a story with a preliminary, incomplete report from the congressional budget office about the stimulus package and have been treating it as if it included the entire thing (misleading)

and note: fiscal year 2009 started on Oct. 1, 2008 - the CBO didn't calculate spending that will happen prior to Oct. 1, 2009 (fiscal year 2010) -- just didn't calculate it.

 Why are we talking about bush in regards to the stimulus package?  This is about the current administration--change--right?  Look, we are all hurting NOW.  Most folks want something done NOW.  While it's important to look to the future to some extent, in order to have an impact on our economy, you'd think they would throw everything + the kitchen sink into jump starting our economy...NOW!  But, we have all of these weird line item attachments to the "stimulus package" that neither stimulate the economy or create jobs.  It's ridiculous that the majority of the stimulus will not be spent sooner rather then later. 

At this point, it might just be better to cut everyone in America a check for 15-20 thousand dollars, which would roughly total to 900 billion.  Save us the headache.

Original Post by crazineko:

At this point, it might just be better to cut everyone in America a check for 15-20 thousand dollars, which would roughly total to 900 billion.  Save us the headache.

No, it's a lousy idea.

You've got a Check for $20,000. What do you do with it?

Do you use it to pay debt, pay off a mortgage? That's fine. That might at least help the current credit crisis, etc.

Do you use it to pay for Goods and Services? That's where it gets tricky. If you give me $20,000 and I use it to buy a Boat made in Canada, how does this stimulate the economy? You help the guy selling boats AND THAT'S IT.

We need to invest money HERE. We need the money to be used HERE. And cutting everyone a check doesn't guarantee that.

Yes nomo, the govt. is like a huge ship in some ways but for a lot of funding (particularly to local govt.) the conduit is already in place.  For example, HUD has entitlement cities who receive funds automatically if they submit an application.  All of the regulations are in place and have been for decades.  This is the conduit for additional funds that were decreased under Bush and could be increased under obama (and it is true for other  federal programs as well).

Increase the amount of funding into these conduit lines, and it flows through the local govt. into the community through street projects, infrastructure etc.  It helps low income people stay in their houses which is much cheaper than letting them go into homelessness.  It provides local jobs, and boosts the local economy all with a span of less than a year(on some projects).  The stimulus package to cities requires that funds be committed within 18 months which is really quick for a govt. project and helps "job start" the economy back to where it should be.

"Spending money on needed investments—infrastructure, education, technology—will yield double dividends. It will increase incomes today while laying the foundations for future employment and economic growth. Investments in energy efficiency will pay triple dividends—yielding environmental benefits in addition to the short- and long-run economic benefits."  This statement from your cited article is accurate IMO.

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by crazineko:

At this point, it might just be better to cut everyone in America a check for 15-20 thousand dollars, which would roughly total to 900 billion.  Save us the headache.

No, it's a lousy idea.

You've got a Check for $20,000. What do you do with it?

Do you use it to pay debt, pay off a mortgage? That's fine. That might at least help the current credit crisis, etc.

Do you use it to pay for Goods and Services? That's where it gets tricky. If you give me $20,000 and I use it to buy a Boat made in Canada, how does this stimulate the economy? You help the guy selling boats AND THAT'S IT.

We need to invest money HERE. We need the money to be used HERE. And cutting everyone a check doesn't guarantee that.

See, I don't think I agree with that.  I do think folks would pay off there credit cards or they would use it for a down payment on a house.  Maybe they would purchase a new car, or spend it buying a new TV.  This would be one heck of a jump start.  A heck of a lot better then what's being proposed in congress.  But, this is just my opinion. :)

Original Post by crazineko:

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by crazineko:

At this point, it might just be better to cut everyone in America a check for 15-20 thousand dollars, which would roughly total to 900 billion.  Save us the headache.

No, it's a lousy idea.

You've got a Check for $20,000. What do you do with it?

Do you use it to pay debt, pay off a mortgage? That's fine. That might at least help the current credit crisis, etc.

Do you use it to pay for Goods and Services? That's where it gets tricky. If you give me $20,000 and I use it to buy a Boat made in Canada, how does this stimulate the economy? You help the guy selling boats AND THAT'S IT.

We need to invest money HERE. We need the money to be used HERE. And cutting everyone a check doesn't guarantee that.

See, I don't think I agree with that.  I do think folks would pay off there credit cards or they would use it for a down payment on a house.  Maybe they would purchase a new car, or spend it buying a new TV.  This would be one heck of a jump start.  A heck of a lot better then what's being proposed in congress.

OK.. so let's say they buy a TV. Let's say they get a Samsung 34" HDTV.. built in South Korea

How does buying that TV help our economy?

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by crazineko:

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by crazineko:

At this point, it might just be better to cut everyone in America a check for 15-20 thousand dollars, which would roughly total to 900 billion.  Save us the headache.

No, it's a lousy idea.

You've got a Check for $20,000. What do you do with it?

Do you use it to pay debt, pay off a mortgage? That's fine. That might at least help the current credit crisis, etc.

Do you use it to pay for Goods and Services? That's where it gets tricky. If you give me $20,000 and I use it to buy a Boat made in Canada, how does this stimulate the economy? You help the guy selling boats AND THAT'S IT.

We need to invest money HERE. We need the money to be used HERE. And cutting everyone a check doesn't guarantee that.

See, I don't think I agree with that.  I do think folks would pay off there credit cards or they would use it for a down payment on a house.  Maybe they would purchase a new car, or spend it buying a new TV.  This would be one heck of a jump start.  A heck of a lot better then what's being proposed in congress.

OK.. so let's say they buy a TV. Let's say they get a Samsung 34" HDTV.. built in japan.

How does buying that TV help our economy?

 Well, it would help companies like Best Buy who primarily sell electronics.  This is what Bush/Pelosi were hoping for last time around with the last stimulus.  They were hoping that people would go out and buy a TV, computer, mattress etc to get things going again.  Didn't work, because it wasn't enough.  You give people a check for 17 grand, and they are definitely going to go on a spending spree.  Last time around, the checks came in waves over the period of 4/6 months, right?  Imagine 4/6 months of people receiving 17 thousand dollars.  That, is what I call a jump start.

Original Post by crazineko:

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by crazineko:

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by crazineko:

At this point, it might just be better to cut everyone in America a check for 15-20 thousand dollars, which would roughly total to 900 billion.  Save us the headache.

No, it's a lousy idea.

You've got a Check for $20,000. What do you do with it?

Do you use it to pay debt, pay off a mortgage? That's fine. That might at least help the current credit crisis, etc.

Do you use it to pay for Goods and Services? That's where it gets tricky. If you give me $20,000 and I use it to buy a Boat made in Canada, how does this stimulate the economy? You help the guy selling boats AND THAT'S IT.

We need to invest money HERE. We need the money to be used HERE. And cutting everyone a check doesn't guarantee that.

See, I don't think I agree with that.  I do think folks would pay off there credit cards or they would use it for a down payment on a house.  Maybe they would purchase a new car, or spend it buying a new TV.  This would be one heck of a jump start.  A heck of a lot better then what's being proposed in congress.

OK.. so let's say they buy a TV. Let's say they get a Samsung 34" HDTV.. built in japan.

How does buying that TV help our economy?

 Well, it would help companies like Best Buy who primarily sell electronics.  This is what Bush/Pelosi were hoping for last time around with the last stimulus.  They were hoping that people would go out and buy a TV, computer, mattress etc to get things going again.  Didn't work, because it wasn't enough.  You give people a check for 17 grand, and they are definitely going to go on a spending spree.  Last time around, the checks came in waves over the period of 4/6 months, right?  Imagine 4/6 months of people receiving 17 thousand dollars.  That, is what I call a jump start.

OK. So it helps Best Buy. And guys can continue working a min wage job a bit longer. Not much because Best Buy made only a percentage of the cost. Then what? How else does it help the economy?

Here's my take.  I made no secret of the fact that Obama wasn't my personal choice for President but what's done is done.  He's my President now ane I'm supporting him.  It's way too important for him to succeed for me to hope for failure simply because he and I differ on some ideology.  I think that the plan's flawed because it's been loaded with pork.  Since when do we need to invest in contraceptives in order to jump start the economy?  How will the propping up the National Endowment for the Arts, while it is a worthy cause, create a million new jobs (or even a hundred for that matter)?  The list goes on and on.  I think that the Republicans in the House see the bill as flawed and expect that it will fail to help the economy.  They are taking a gamble that it fails so that they can point out to the country that they knew it wasn't the answer and that's why they voted against it.  That will give them some much-needed clout.  I certainly don't condone it, but I think that's the motivation.  I think that Obama and the Democrats were on the right track with investing in things like infrastructure as these are things that need to be done and will put at least some people back to work.  They just need to fight the urge that all politicians have regardless of ideology to pad these things with things that don't belong there.  If Congress wants to provide poor women with contraceptives I have no problem with that but it should be in another bill.  The same goes with the arts.  Politicians get so busy trying to do this and that they forget what's truly important.  That's JMHO of course.

The job cuts for today are:

Boeing is cutting 6% of their workforce, 10,000 jobs

Starbucks is closing 900 stores worldwide and cutting 6700 jobs in the process

Target is cutting 400 open positions and laying off 600 people

Original Post by crazineko:

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by crazineko:

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by crazineko:

At this point, it might just be better to cut everyone in America a check for 15-20 thousand dollars, which would roughly total to 900 billion.  Save us the headache.

No, it's a lousy idea.

You've got a Check for $20,000. What do you do with it?

Do you use it to pay debt, pay off a mortgage? That's fine. That might at least help the current credit crisis, etc.

Do you use it to pay for Goods and Services? That's where it gets tricky. If you give me $20,000 and I use it to buy a Boat made in Canada, how does this stimulate the economy? You help the guy selling boats AND THAT'S IT.

We need to invest money HERE. We need the money to be used HERE. And cutting everyone a check doesn't guarantee that.

See, I don't think I agree with that.  I do think folks would pay off there credit cards or they would use it for a down payment on a house.  Maybe they would purchase a new car, or spend it buying a new TV.  This would be one heck of a jump start.  A heck of a lot better then what's being proposed in congress.

OK.. so let's say they buy a TV. Let's say they get a Samsung 34" HDTV.. built in japan.

How does buying that TV help our economy?

 Well, it would help companies like Best Buy who primarily sell electronics.  This is what Bush/Pelosi were hoping for last time around with the last stimulus.  They were hoping that people would go out and buy a TV, computer, mattress etc to get things going again.  Didn't work, because it wasn't enough.  You give people a check for 17 grand, and they are definitely going to go on a spending spree.  Last time around, the checks came in waves over the period of 4/6 months, right?  Imagine 4/6 months of people receiving 17 thousand dollars.  That, is what I call a jump start.

 Instead of getting a cash rebate we should get gift cards. Like food stamps, that we get to choose. And it would include things like your local ford dealership (to buy hybrid escapes only) or Planned Parenthood. Economy=stimulated! Contraceptives=paid for! Dependence on foreign oil=curtailed! And then after I buy my new car and all the birth control pills I can swallow I can use the left over money at Target and Starbucks and personally help all those laid off workers get their jobs back. Win! Win! Win!

If anybody would like me to solve the whole "peace in the middle east" thing, let me know.