Experienced runners - Question for you

Hello... I have never run a race, ever.  LOL.  I run mostly on a treadmill, sometimes (once a week or so) outside on a paved running trail.  My long run is currently 7 miles and I am running a 10 mile training program.  The question, in about a month there is a 5k race I am considering entering... just cuz I wanna see how bad or good I do.  However, the flyer says its on wooded trails...

Ummm... how different, difficult or f'ed up would it be for me to try to race on wooded trails considering what I train on normally?  LOL.  I am trying to enter a  low key race and the pickings seem to be getting really slim. 

Thoughts? Ideas?  Should I just wait until the spring to try my first race? 

If you're running 7 miles now, I don't imagine you'd have too much trouble running 5k (3 miles).  However, I might try contacting the race organizers and see if they've got a trail map for you, so you can go try it on your own.  You could also try running outdoors more as the race approaches.  How far are you running outside (distance)?

To be honest, I'm not real sure what "wooded trails" might involve.  Is that a paved bike trail?  A graveled bike path?  A single deer path through the woods?  There would be quite a difference between all of those.  The rougher the trail, the harder it will be on your ankles and muscles that help keep your balance.  But if you're used to running twice as far, I still think you'll be ok.

Clint

Thanks for the reply.  When I run outside it's usually 3 to 4 miles.  I did do a long run outside about a month ago and it was 5 miles.  I have a hard time pacing myself outside ... I shoot outta da cannon and in 10 minutes I am exhausted.  The other reason I run on a treadmill is because I work out at 4 am and I am  not running outside in the dark by myself.  :-)

I know where the place is (the park containing said wooded trails) and i think I may go there just to see.  I also realize that... if I am going to run a race... I need to run off the treadmill so I can learn to pace better.  :-)

I think you'd do fine without the extra outside running, but to do your best, the more you can practise outside, the better off you'll be.  I would imagine it would be harder to pace yourself outside without the treadmill buttons to assist. :)  Do you have anything like the Nike+ or a Garmin GPS watch?  They can help by showing your your current pace, so you could rein yourself in to start.  You could also try to find another runner who looks like they'd be your pace (maybe talk to some people at the starting gate) and use them to pace you. 

And finding out what kind of path it will be would be good, too.  I usually run on paved bike paths, but I've also run some on gravel roads and the deer paths.  The gravel roads have a mostly consistent surface, but the gravel slips when you plant your foot and push off, so it seems to suck a bit more energy.  The deer trails, with rocks and roots sticking out, caused more discomfort from my knees down, but I didn't really have any problems finishing my distances on either surface.  Another variable, if it's a true "cross country" run, is the amount/number/steepness of any hills.  So again, finding the actual course and running it would be a great confidence builder.  Oh, and obviously rain/precipitation will have more effect on the looser surfaces as well.

I'm going to be doing the opposite this winter... I've never run on a treadmill before, but we're starting to hit cooler temps already (like below freezing in the morning).  And I'm a cold weather wimp, so I'm thinking that pretty soon it will be treadmill most of the time, and outside when it's a really nice day.  Part of me is not looking forward to the transition, but part of me is thinking that being able to run and bike while watching a hockey game on TV sounds pretty good. :)  Might actually be motivation to run and bike even longer!

BTW, I'm not an experienced runner!  So take any of my advice with a grain of salt.  :)

Clint

If the trail is smooth and doesn't have many obstacles, take off!  You're most likely not going to hurt yourself, and you will probably enjoy the challenge.  But if the trail has lots of hills, sharp turns, and obstacles, take it easy.  Don't worry about your pace.  It's more important that you have fun and stay injury free.

Even if you don't have a fancypants GPS watch/other timing device (one day, man - one day), you can still help rein yourself in by finding some distance markers early on the course. Since you said you know the area where the course will be, you could walk it and find some recognizable spots that are, say 1/4 or 1/2 a mile in (Google Earth is a great tool for figuring out distances, and it's free!). Then, when you run it, wear just a regular watch. If at your 1/4 mile marker you're way ahead of your target mile pace, slow down! You could do this for the whole length of the 5K course, but if you really just need restraining right at the start, probably one or two markers would do it.

One other thing - if you're mostly running on treadmills, do you ever vary the inclination? If you have no experience on hills, and the course is hilly, DEFINITELY either run on some real live hills or add some incline work. Downhill can be just as painful as uphill, too.

Good luck - if it weren't for races, I'd never stay motivated to run. They're awesome!

Go for it!  The main thing about trails is focusing about ten feet in front of you to make sure that you don't trip over any roots or anything like that.  If you are unsure, just slow down, but most of all, have fun :-)

I do use a Polar F6 and I am just learning how to use that thing correctly... let alone the fancypants GPS  LOL.  I do "hills" on the treadmill one day a week ... just cuz.  I am thinking its a good idea for me to go walk the trail to see what it looks like. I live in NW Indiana and am thinking, it can't be too hilly  LOL.  I was thinking, if I wanted to try to pace myself if (BIG IF) I enter a race, shouldn't I use my heart rate percentage to keep myself in check? Or, does none of that matter if you racing?

I will tell you, the biggest reason I have not entered a race is because I am a freak  LOL.  I am 43, spent a lot of my life overweight, former smoker, just recently lost a lot of weight and found that running is the best, fastest calorie burner out there.  In my quest to burn calories, I found that I actually like running.  NOT while I am doing it, but the feeling I get when I am done is like nothing else.

So.. if I enter a race, there is a part of my brain that will expect me to win.  Yes, you heard me.. win!  The entire thing too, not just my age group, sex, etc... the whole friggin race  LOL.  I am actually afraid that if  I don't win or do exceptionally well (as in world record time  LOL), I will get discouraged and quit running.  I am such an A type personality that I want to win... even beating a 16 year old boy or something. 

I would hope that I could run a race, work on getting better or faster or whatever my goal would be, and maybe run more races.  I am afraid, being the freak that I am, if it is not perfect, I will get discouraged. 

And that ends today's confessional... LOL.

Hah! 3 Hail Marys and 4 Our Fathers, my child :P

I'm like you in that I was totally surprised to learn that I love to run, but my current plan is to maintain my slowpoke pace until I'm in my 80s (I'm 30), by which time I'll be the fastest geriatric on the course. Oh, yeah, all about the long (long!) term goals...I am very, very not type A.

So how realistic is it that you'll win your 5K? I always do road races, so I'm not sure this will directly translate, but for local 5Ks in my area, the winner usually finishes in the (insane) range of 14-15 minutes. If you're close to that, more power to you. If you're not, though, don't despair. Running seems particularly well-suited to Type As, as there's so much detail to obsess over. If it seems like fun to you, you could track personal records over lots of common distances, compare your road runs to your trail runs, set up spreadsheets for training plans, work out your ideal pace for every distance from mile sprints to marathons, set up your ideal training diet, have several pairs of shoes for training, road races, triathlons and trail races (and of course keep track of mileage for each pair) - the obsessive possibilities are endless!

In all seriousness, though, one of the nice things about racing is that while, yes, there are other people running at the same time as you, MOST of the people out on the course are really only running against themselves. Most participants will not be elite runners trying to qualify for international events - most everyone else wants to be faster than they were last 5K, or to place in their age group for the first time, or to complete a 1/2 marathon for the first time. There are so many goals that you can make, then break, that letting that little part of your brain that wants to win the whole shebang take over is to potentially cut yourself out of a sport that can foster personal achievement for a lifetime.

Remind yourself that you started running because it was good for you, not to win races. And if you enter your first race and don't win (which is true for just about everybody), then you have something to work towards. How sad would it be if you started something at the top, with nowhere to go but down.

Last thing - if you're serious about wanting to work on speed, I highly recommend finding a running group led by a coach with good credentials. You won't get serious improvements in speed without workouts dedicated to just that, and (at least for me) it's much, much easier to do them with other people.

Well, I don't mean to disappoint you, but I would suspect that unless you've got awesome genes, you're unlikely to go out and win your first race (5k or otherwise).  Unless you've been training for years, and have been hiding your talent carefully.  As kriklaf, most of the races I've been in have been won with times between 15 and 20 minutes.  That means running a 5 to 7 minute mile.  Without knowing your pace on the treadmill (or better yet, on the road), it's hard to judge how you'd do.

In the running forums I frequent, people talk about A, B, and C goals.  A is the "shooting for the stars" goal that's still realistic, but a big stretch for you.  In your case, that might be winning your age/gender group, or even the whole shooting match.  Your B goal might be to do it in 25 minutes.  Your C goal might be doing it under 30.  Adjust the times/expectations to your own personal goals.  In any case, as your first race, it will be a personal best, and a target for any more races in the future.

As far as racing paces go, I've only done a couple of races.  I don't set my race pace based on my heart rate, but I have been using that more for training.  For a 5k race, I would probably target a rate of 85 to 90% of my max, though.  That's based on my personal experience and from monitoring my heart rate in the races I've done.   I'm not a doctor, and don't play one on TV even, so take any heart rate advice with a grain of salt.  One of the problems with percentage of max heart rate is that knowing your actual max heart rate is quite difficult.  I base mine on the maximum value I saw on my HRM when doing the 4th set of hill training, and I thought there was no way I could finish the climb to the top.  But that value is WAY different than I'd get with any online calculator.

I think a better gauge of pace may be to go and do a 5k run on similar terrain as you're expecting, and figure out what your pace was for a "hard yet sustainable run".  Then set a pace of 20 to 30 seconds per km off that, to account for race adrenaline and pushing hard.

Clint

O....M.......F.......G....... who in the hell can run a mile in 5 or 7 minutes?  LOL.  I sincerely appreciate all of your responses.  I am at work at actually laughed at the last two posts...so thank you.  You are both right... pb999 and kriklaf.  I am great at obsessing and I think I need to scale down the things I can obsess over in relation to trying a first run.  I am 100% confident I can finish a 5k (might need a stretcher at the end when I try to break the land speed record) but I will finish.  LOL.

I think the best thing I've heard is... since it is my first race, it certainly is my PB and... since friggin winter is coming and nobody seems to want to run in the snow... I have alllllll winter to work on my speed, endurance and running faster.  I am thinking I am going to sign up. I am already obsessing over the potential weather for that day (told y'all I was a freak) cuz my running shoes (both pairs) are in pristine shape LOL... the idea of getting muddy makes me nuts!  Yep... that's what I worried about.  Oh.. and looking like a dork since I've never raced, never been to a race and don't know what to do when I get there.   FYI... at 75-78% heart rate, I am running 11:30 miles.  I seem to run faster miles when I am on the running track or outside.

LOL at realistic race paces! Talk about ego blowers, I am a slow senior (will be 63 at first half on 11/8). I ran first 15k (9.3mi) race on labor day, and I was being passed by the 5k'ers before the 2mi mark! I had feared being the last finisher but was actually 8th from last and next to last male, an 88 yo guy finished last! But we had fun in the North Texas heat! I was happy because with the heat and slower resulting pace (85+ heat index by end of race) I still broke goal of 14 pace, finishing with a 13:38 pace.

Set personal goals. I like the A, B, C recommendation. I didn't call it that but having personal goals has helped me.

btw: I started running for health reasons after a blessed heart attack and couldn't believe it when I fell in love with it too! Woulda never thunk it!

Original Post by jennifer58:

O....M.......F.......G....... who in the hell can run a mile in 5 or 7 minutes?

Not me, that's for damn sure!

I hope you enjoy your race, even if it is in the snow and muddy (btw, many shoe companies make "trail running" versions of their popular shoes - they tend to be grey and have sturdier edges to protect against roots and rocks, but I'm guessing they're heavier). Don't worry about looking like a dork - everyone will be in similar gear, plus there will no doubt be people with ace bandages on several joints, people with those sunglass cords, people with tights and shorts, people with too-tight shorts...it's a fashion plate nightmare :)

Let us know how it goes!

in hs track a considerably good time for a mile race is 5:30-5:50, but thats with hard training everyday.

in cross country all of our meets are 5k length and usually my pace is around 6:45-6:55

however, dont kill yourself and run super fast in the first mile because youll be dead the second and third miles lol :p try to keep a nice maintainable pace that feels like the fastest pace you could comfortably go for 3 miles. make sense?

also, maybe you could try doing some workouts that include speed intervals or surges in your runs. when we do long 8-9 mile runs we usually have surges of about 90 sec.s each. of course we spread them out with recovery time in between but all in all adding speed intervals and/or sprinting workouts really helps your time.

but, if you just wanna go out there and do a nice easy pace and just sort of run it for fun and enjoyment then totally go for it!!!

hope that helped! goodluck!!

Original Post by alexa81:

in hs track a considerably good time for a mile race is 5:30-5:50, but thats with hard training everyday.

in cross country all of our meets are 5k length and usually my pace is around 6:45-6:55

however, dont kill yourself and run super fast in the first mile because youll be dead the second and third miles lol :p try to keep a nice maintainable pace that feels like the fastest pace you could comfortably go for 3 miles. make sense?

also, maybe you could try doing some workouts that include speed intervals or surges in your runs. when we do long 8-9 mile runs we usually have surges of about 90 sec.s each. of course we spread them out with recovery time in between but all in all adding speed intervals and/or sprinting workouts really helps your time.

but, if you just wanna go out there and do a nice easy pace and just sort of run it for fun and enjoyment then totally go for it!!!

hope that helped! goodluck!!

Alexa, in your 90s surges, what pace do you do?  Your race pace?  And how many of them would you do in a 9 mile run?

Thanks!

Oh, and to the OP.  My only two races (as I talk like a big expert... :)) have been around 29 minutes, so I'm no speed demon either.  But even with a time of 29 minutes, I still came in 22nd out of 60 in the last local 5k run.  I'm doing another one on our Thanksgiving weekend (Oct 11), so I'd like to improve on that before the races shut down for the year.  I'd love to break 27:30 before then, but I'm not sure if it will happen.

And I think you should sign up.  Worry about the details after you've paid your money.  Then it's harder to back out. :)

Clint

And I think you should sign up.  Worry about the details after you've paid your money.  Then it's harder to back out.

HA... this is so funny that you would say this because, just this morning while I was running, I was talking myself out of signing up, I can wait until next year, trails, sticks, roots, dork not knowing what to do..... all of this conspired in my mind to say, I'll wait until next year.  But, if I send in the entry form and money today, it will be more difficult to back out!

Original Post by jennifer58:

O....M.......F.......G....... who in the hell can run a mile in 5 or 7 minutes?  LOL.  I sincerely appreciate all of your responses.  I am at work at actually laughed at the last two posts...so thank you.  You are both right... pb999 and kriklaf.  I am great at obsessing and I think I need to scale down the things I can obsess over in relation to trying a first run.  I am 100% confident I can finish a 5k (might need a stretcher at the end when I try to break the land speed record) but I will finish.  LOL.

I think the best thing I've heard is... since it is my first race, it certainly is my PB and... since friggin winter is coming and nobody seems to want to run in the snow... I have alllllll winter to work on my speed, endurance and running faster.  I am thinking I am going to sign up. I am already obsessing over the potential weather for that day (told y'all I was a freak) cuz my running shoes (both pairs) are in pristine shape LOL... the idea of getting muddy makes me nuts!  Yep... that's what I worried about.  Oh.. and looking like a dork since I've never raced, never been to a race and don't know what to do when I get there.   FYI... at 75-78% heart rate, I am running 11:30 miles.  I seem to run faster miles when I am on the running track or outside.

A 5K is only 3.1 miles.  If you are running an 11:30 pace  ...  that is a very good time.  Many runners do not run that pace.  So relax.  Secondly, run at a pace that is comfortable to you.  If you can't do 3 miles at that pace  ...  back off a little bit.  I'd bet you could drop to a 12 min or 12:30 pace and finish without a problem.  The goal is to finish.  Once you get the running bug  ...  then you can work on your speed.

Also, what pbear999 said is very true.  All runners run slower on trail runs than they do on paved runs.  That is because the footing is unpredictable.  You have to pay attention to the trail and adjust to the obstacles.  Running on paved areas  ...  you focus more on form, breathing, speed  ...  not footing.

I'm 55.  I run marathons.  I will run 6 of them this winter.  And yes, I can run a mile under 7 minutes  (Tuesday night's training session and it was my 4th mile repeat).  Still, understand that there is ALWAYS someone who can run faster than you. 

My wife now runs half marathons.  She got the "bug" while watching 25,000 marathoners run.  Her time goal is to average 13 minute miles.

I found/joined this site today when I bing'd for a calorie counter.  I want to lose 10 or 15 lbs just like everyone else here.  While I run 50 to 60 miles a week  ...  I consume lots  ...  LOTS  ...  of hidden calories.  GUs  ...  Gatorades, etc.  I have a GPS watch that tracks my miles down to the 100th mile  ...  my heart rate  ...  my pace  ...  even calories burned.  What I haven't done is track the calorie input.  So I joined.

As to your shoes.  Hmmmm.  Silly.  Shoes are just a consumable commodity for runners.  Most running shoes have to be replaced after 300 to 400 miles anyway.  But since you are worried about them  ...  hmmmm  ...  I will share a runners trick with you.  Place them upside down in the dishwasher  ...  put soap in it  ...  set it to WASH ONLY.  Do not allow the dishwasher to go to the dry mode  (they use a heating element and it will ruin the plastics and elasticity in the shoes).  Let them air dry or hang them on a clothesline.  This keeps them looking good and smelling less bad.

I hope you enjoy your run.

Welcome!  And thanks for the reply.  I am sooo impressed with your running and skills!  I am such a newcommer to this whole running thing.  And, to make things worse, I have a terrible headc old and just found out what happens when you try to run when you are sick!  Let's just say I couldn't tell the sweat from the snot... now, there's a hot image for you! 

I also appreciate the words of encouragement.  I've lost a significant amount of weight by counting calories and making a log on this website nearly every day.  It's amazing how many calories you eat without realizing it or keeping track. 

Thanks!

Original Post by jennifer58:

And, to make things worse, I have a terrible headc old and just found out what happens when you try to run when you are sick!  Let's just say I couldn't tell the sweat from the snot... now, there's a hot image for you! 

I also appreciate the words of encouragement.  I've lost a significant amount of weight by counting calories and making a log on this website nearly every day.  It's amazing how many calories you eat without realizing it or keeping track. 

Thanks!

 OK, when a runner has a head cold  ...  walk.  Fast.  My wife likes to walk 3 miles fast.  It kills me  ...  but is good for me.  I find it works my hips way, way more than running.

Distance runners "carb up".  Lots of energy bars, GUs while we run, Gatorade, etc.  They are really high calories so it is important to count them.

hey sorry to reply to this SO late but the amount of surges that you should do in your 9 mile run generally depends on how much time it takes you to do the run. if it takes you say an hour and 15 mins, i would probably do 6 surges for 5 mins each. or you could do maybe 3 longer 10 min ones. depends on what you prefer.

my race pace is around 6:45-6:50 but take it at your own pace deffinityly

Go ahead and sign up or you may regret it if you miss it. Besides signing up is a great motivator to help you stick to the training schedule. Like someone said above, in wooded trails you should worry about tree roots and uneven soil, just watch your step. It's much harder to run outside than on the treadmill, it's recommended to put an incline of 1-2 to mimick better the effort on the pavement. It's good to have the course map so at least you can map it on runnersworld.com or mapmyrun.com to check the elevation. It's always good to be prepared for any hills. I'm a beginner to intermediate runner and I've been improving my speed firstly by doing hill runs as it strengthen the legs. Then I added some speed work and tempo runs. It helped a lot. My first 5K time in May was bit less than 33'. Two weeks ago I ran 28':40", not even close to the winners but more than a minute/mile improvement. I was ecstatic. Have some more runs outside though so you get a better hang of pacing yourself (impossible on the treadmill). Once you know your pace it will be easier to set a strategy for the race. Eating carbs are good on the days before the race but you shouldn't need any food/gel during the race itself in such a short distance run. Good luck!