Is this fair?

A health insurance provider in our state just granted children up to the age of 19 a totally free health insurance plan for two years....if they are undocumented.

A majority of people here have NO health insurance for their kids...citizens who were born here. They cannot afford it.

Wow.

Original Post by floggingsully:

Where are all these multilingual teachers going to come from? and are we just going to fire all the current teachers who don't speak another language? 

multilingual teachers come from the same place unilingual teachers do - from universities.  curricula change all the time, sully, and teachers either update their skills or they retire and move on to other careers.  knowledge isn't static, and neither is education.

You have to consider that this is not just an issue of mexicans immigrating to the US as much as it is the enormous amount of illegal immigration without assimilation that is a problem. As Hanson wrote in his article,

"Numbers are at the crux of the entire debate over illegal immigration. In the 1970s, perhaps a few million illegals resided in the United States, and their unassimilated presence went largely unnoticed. Most Americans felt that the formidable powers of integration and popular culture would continue to incorporate any distinctive ethnic enclave, as they had so successfully done with the past generations that arrived en masse from Europe, Asia, and Latin America. But when more than 10 million fled Mexico in little over a decade—the great majority poor, without English, job skills, a high school education, and legality—entire apartheid communities in the American Southwest began springing up.

 

During the heyday of multiculturalism and political correctness in the 1980s, the response of us, the hosts, to this novel challenge was not to insist upon the traditional assimilation of the newcomer but rather to accommodate the illegal alien with official Spanish-language documents, bilingual education, and ethnic boosterism in our media, politics, and education. These responses only encouraged more illegals to come, on the guarantee that their material life could be better and yet their culture unchanged in the United States. We now see the results. Los Angeles is today the second-largest Mexican city in the world; one out of every ten Mexican nationals resides in the United States, the vast majority illegally…

At the same time, focus has turned more to the U.S.-born children of Mexican illegal immigrants, in whom illegitimacy, school dropout rates, and criminal activity have risen to such levels that no longer can we simply dismiss Mexican immigration as resembling the more problematic but eventually successful Italian model of a century ago."

There is no problem with people speaking spanish as long as they are learning english, but that seems to be more and more infrequent here. We hardly have the money for our own citizens here in Cali and much of the spending on having teachers teach the same course twice in two separate languages could be used to pay all of those teacher who are being laid off.

Reality is we have limited resources here. A hospital can only take so many undocumented cases through the emergency room before they lose too much money to remain in business. There is a national shortage of Doctors as it is. There aren't enough teachers to take on the needs of so many spanish-only students. Our state is in a very fragile financial position as it is, but we spend a lot of money to give the same information twice in order to accommodate spanish speakers.

---------

Also, I think that this conversation really breaks down from being productive when people start calling others "racist." This isn't about race, or about mexicans at all. My wife is a beautiful, intelligent, 100% Mexican-American. All four of her grand parents immigrated here, the legal way. Her family intentionally assimilated into US culture and they are much more vocal on this issue than I am.

sim, i'm not going to address the falsehood that multiple language classes somehow means lost jobs for teachers, because i already did that.

this conversation turned racist when people stopped talking about the issue of aid for immigrants and started generalizing about immigrants (primarily latins) who don't conform to their expecations of assimilation.

Would you call my wife and her family racist as well? Its kinda hard to be racist against your own race.

i would have to meet them first before i made that call, wouldn't i?

you haven't met me, but you seem to have no problem calling me racist.

i didn't call you racist.  i said the conversation was racist.  and you were not one of the people i had in mind at the time.

of course, i didn't read the links you posted, so that could change.

nevertheless, i think you've expressed yourself enough in these forums that i can form an opinion about you - or at least an opinion about your opinions.  unless, of course, you've been lying.

it's a little ridiculous to ask me to form an opinion about your wife and her family based on what you have to say about them, don't you think?

Original Post by simwaves1:

Would you call my wife and her family racist as well? Its kinda hard to be racist against your own race.

 Not trying to jump into the middle of a battle here, but I have to point out that technically, yes, it is entirely possible to be racist against your own race (and not nearly as uncommon as you might think).

totally, 'taylor.  lateral oppression, internalized racism, whatever you want to call it.

Well then, I apologize for the assumption. I thought you were referring to me.

My wife's family, as well as many other Mexican-Americans that I know are true assets to our society, and I think that some assimilation is required for that. That's really all I'm saying. It would benefit the mexicans who immigrate if they can assume some level of American culture along with their own.

Kick back and have a Coke; we aren't going to solve the problem in a day. 

Amazingly though, we do all have it in us to treat everyone with respect.  Like they say, kindness goes a long way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mOEU87SBTU

Yeah, I'm sappy! 

I don't know sim, I'm not trying to deliberately be argumentative here... but I find it unbelivable that people in this country, which was founded on immigration, seem so opposed to the situation now. 

You would think the citizens of a relatively young country with a history of immigration would... be used it the concept, I guess?  The culture in this country is not static. 

apology accepted.

[i'm not going to ask what level of assimilation would be acceptable to you, or who you think should get to determine and enforce that, because it's irrelevant.]

Original Post by brtaylor:

I don't know sim, I'm not trying to deliberately be argumentative here... but I find it unbelivable that people in this country, which was founded on immigration, seem so opposed to the situation now. 

You would think the citizens of a relatively young country with a history of immigration would... be used it the concept, I guess?  The culture in this country is not static. 

All of the previous immigrants assimilated into what we have today. That's where the whole idea of America being the "melting pot" came from. If we continue to bring in more immigrants without any assimilation, then all we're really doing is extending the borders of Mexico.

Original Post by simwaves1:

Original Post by brtaylor:

I don't know sim, I'm not trying to deliberately be argumentative here... but I find it unbelivable that people in this country, which was founded on immigration, seem so opposed to the situation now. 

You would think the citizens of a relatively young country with a history of immigration would... be used it the concept, I guess?  The culture in this country is not static. 

All of the previous immigrants assimilated into what we have today. That's where the whole idea of America being the "melting pot" came from. If we continue to bring in more immigrants without any assimilation, then all we're really doing is extending the borders of Mexico.

 I think I see where you are going with that, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to be honest.  Immigrants have made our culture what it is today.  And the immigrants of today will shape our culture into what it will become in the future.

I guess I just don't see anything to fear.  I don't feel threatened by the possibility of the "American Way" meaning something completely different in the future.  This country has been evolving ever since it was founded. 

Original Post by brtaylor:

 I think I see where you are going with that, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to be honest.  Immigrants have made our culture what it is today.  And the immigrants of today will shape our culture into what it will become in the future.

I guess I just don't see anything to fear.  I don't feel threatened by the possibility of the "American Way" meaning something completely different in the future.  This country has been evolving ever since it was founded. 

Try to understand that I am not saying that mexicans should conform to american culture. I think this is a give and take relationship. Mexican culture has indeed shaped the face of american culture, but without that mixture between the two, then we can't function as well together.

Original Post by simwaves1:

In general, I don't like Rush Limbaugh; however, I thought his take on this subject was pretty interesting.

Rush Limbaugh:

All right, immigration proposals under discussion. Let me add mine to the mix. I want to call this proposal the Limbaugh Laws. …First, if you immigrate to the United States of America, you must speak the native language. You have to be a professional or an investor. [America is] not going to take unskilled workers…There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools, no special ballots for elections, no government business will be conducted in your native language. Foreigners will not have the right to vote…nor will they ever be allowed to hold political office. According to the Limbaugh Laws, if you're in our country, you cannot be a burden to taxpayers. You are not entitled, ever, to welfare, to food stamps, or other government goodies. You can come if you invest here, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage. If you don't now have that amount of money, you can't come and invest. You have to stay home. If you do come and you want to buy land, okay, but we're going to restrict your options. You will not be allowed to buy waterfront property in the United States. That will be reserved for citizens naturally born in this country.

In fact, as a foreigner, you must relinquish individual rights to property… Another thing. You don't have the right to protest when you come here. You're allowed no demonstrations, you cannot wave a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies, or you get sent home. You're a foreigner. You shut your mouth or you get out, and if you come here illegally, you go straight to jail and we're going to hunt you down 'til we find you.

I can imagine many of you think that the Limbaugh Laws are pretty harsh. I imagine today some of you probably are going, "Yeah! Yeah!" Well, let me tell you this, folks. Every one of the laws I just mentioned are actual laws of Mexico, today. I just read you Mexican immigration law. That's how the Mexican government handles immigrants to their country.

 

 

So much for "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free", huh?

Yet it was with that kind of immigration policy that the US became the superpower it is today.

Original Post by peaches0405:

Original Post by alibsam:

Why must immigrants assimilate?

I live in South Korea. Does this mean I must stop speaking English, eat Korean food only, wear hanboks on holidays, etc? No.

 

 But do you at least make an effort to learn basic Korean?  Or do you just go there expecting people to speak English for you?

I don't know you that well, but I know your style and I'll bet you have tried to learn basic Korean.  This is much more than the majority of the new wave of Mexican immigrants seem to be trying to do. (Note:  I have no stats on this.  This is just what I see from the ones that my husband and I have dealt with in recent history)

The majority of them don't even know what to do when my husband pulls them over and asks for their ID and proof of insurance.

Of course. I study Korean on a daily basis. I have a Korean boyfriend whose parents don't speak any English and 98% of my friends are Korean (with varying levels of English ability). That said, I'd guess 95% of ESL teachers here don't bother to learn anything in Korean except "Hello", "Thank you" and "Give me a beer, please." It's really not as hard as you think to live in another country and not speak the language. 

Also, just because you see a Mexican person struggling to understand English doesn't mean they haven't studied it at all. There's a huge difference between reading and writing comprehension and listening and speaking skills. I've met Koreans who've studied English for 10 years and still have problems with listening comprehension. My speaking skills are worse than my reading and writing skills. Have you ever taken into consideration the speed at which Americans speak? Perhaps an ESL speaker has trouble understanding because of that.

And if I was an immigrant and was pulled over by a cop, I don't care how much English I knew, I'd probably pretend I didn't speak any. ^^

And sims: The US has no official language so you might as well get off your high horse about forcing immigrants to speak English. 

Original Post by simwaves1:

Original Post by brtaylor:

 I think I see where you are going with that, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to be honest.  Immigrants have made our culture what it is today.  And the immigrants of today will shape our culture into what it will become in the future.

I guess I just don't see anything to fear.  I don't feel threatened by the possibility of the "American Way" meaning something completely different in the future.  This country has been evolving ever since it was founded. 

Try to understand that I am not saying that mexicans should conform to american culture. I think this is a give and take relationship. Mexican culture has indeed shaped the face of american culture, but without that mixture between the two, then we can't function as well together.

 But here's the conflict I'm seeing- if we expect them to "assimilate" as you have mentioned over and over again, then we would be acting the way you (and Rush Limbaugh) described the Mexican government in post #49.  I think adpoting habits of the Mexican goverment brings us closer to 'extending the borders of Mexico' than letting them keep their heritage and culture while living in this country (see your post #134). 

Thoughts?

Original Post by brtaylor:

 But here's the conflict I'm seeing- if we expect them to "assimilate" as you have mentioned over and over again, then we would be acting the way you (and Rush Limbaugh) described the Mexican government in post #49.  I think adpoting habits of the Mexican goverment brings us closer to 'extending the borders of Mexico' than letting them keep their heritage and culture while living in this country (see your post #134). 

Thoughts?

My wife's family hasn't given up any of their heritage or culture, but they can fully function as a part of society. Many illegal immigrants have difficulty with that.