Is this fair?

A health insurance provider in our state just granted children up to the age of 19 a totally free health insurance plan for two years....if they are undocumented.

A majority of people here have NO health insurance for their kids...citizens who were born here. They cannot afford it.

Wow.

Original Post by alibsam:

And sims: The US has no official language so you might as well get off your high horse about forcing immigrants to speak English. 

Teaching everyone spanish would solve that problem too, but it would take a lot more work (and money) than teaching english to immigrants. When it comes down to it, we have to be able to understand each other if we are going to be able to adequately function together.

To summarize Simwaves:

Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. Your life as it has been is over. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Original Post by simwaves1:

Original Post by alibsam:

And sims: The US has no official language so you might as well get off your high horse about forcing immigrants to speak English. 

Teaching everyone spanish would solve that problem too, but it would take a lot more work (and money) than teaching english to immigrants. When it comes down to it, we have to be able to understand each other if we are going to be able to adequately function together.

I know plenty of people living here in Korea that don't speak any Korean and haven't had any problems functioning in society.

You just have your blinders on and want everyone to "assimilate" in the fashion you want. 

Original Post by alibsam:

I know plenty of people living here in Korea that don't speak any Korean and haven't had any problems functioning in society.

 

Ali, now that is a rather hasty generalization! Come on ali, we've been over this! *kicks hole in wall*

And I know plenty of people who have had terrible times functiiong in Korea without knowing Korean. lol

Original Post by simwaves1:

Original Post by brtaylor:

 But here's the conflict I'm seeing- if we expect them to "assimilate" as you have mentioned over and over again, then we would be acting the way you (and Rush Limbaugh) described the Mexican government in post #49.  I think adpoting habits of the Mexican goverment brings us closer to 'extending the borders of Mexico' than letting them keep their heritage and culture while living in this country (see your post #134). 

Thoughts?

My wife's family hasn't given up any of their heritage or culture, but they can fully function as a part of society. Many illegal immigrants have difficulty with that.

Ah, nothing brightens my day better than an argument that comes down to one basic principle:  "I do it this way, so everyone else should as well."  Although in this case, it's "The people I know do it this way."  Now that's insightful.  

Original Post by brtaylor:

Ah, nothing brightens my day better than an argument that comes down to one basic principle:  "I do it this way, so everyone else should as well."  Although in this case, it's "The people I know do it this way."  Now that's insightful.  

All I am saying is that assimilation doesn't require you to give up heritage or culture. I used my wife as an example of this. 

I'm sure we have tons of laws that are similar to mexico (immigration laws included), that doesn't mean we are like mexico.

Original Post by alibsam:

I know plenty of people living here in Korea that don't speak any Korean and haven't had any problems functioning in society.

You just have your blinders on and want everyone to "assimilate" in the fashion you want. 

This doesn't make sense to me. Either a person knows Korean, or the Koreans know English. Without a similar language to communicate, you can't function in society. You can seclude yourself from society in an english speaking group, but thats different. You can get by in Korea without knowing Korean, but without the ability to communicate with locals, you can't function in society.

Like I said above, assimilation is a give and take relationship. Its a two way street. It means that Americans assimilate to mexican culture and mexicans assimilate to ours. Without a common ground, we won't get anywhere.

sim, you strike my as an absolutely typical undergraduate student: you soak up every bit of information that confirms your pre-existing beliefs and supports your world view (not to mention your own financial and social advancement) and ignore everything that doesn't fit. 

you keep telling us to read hanson; i'd like to suggest that you read some mullaly and smith.

Original Post by simwaves1:

Original Post by alibsam:

I know plenty of people living here in Korea that don't speak any Korean and haven't had any problems functioning in society.

You just have your blinders on and want everyone to "assimilate" in the fashion you want. 

This doesn't make sense to me. Either a person knows Korean, or the Koreans know English. Without a similar language to communicate, you can't function in society. You can seclude yourself from society in an english speaking group, but thats different. You can get by in Korea without knowing Korean, but without the ability to communicate with locals, you can't function in society.

Like I said above, assimilation is a give and take relationship. Its a two way street. It means that Americans assimilate to mexican culture and mexicans assimilate to ours. Without a common ground, we won't get anywhere.

Society is comprised of communities.  

Here in the US there are communities that only know the language from their country of heritage.  These citizens and their prior generations would be surprised to learn they cant or havent functioned in society.  I love that the US has these spots of culture and find the these communites fascinating.   

Many English speaking US citizens only live in a world that doesnt extend past their local community.   No matter whether speaking a countries language or not, assimilating into society is a personal option not required of everyone.  

Original Post by pgeorgian:

sim, you strike my as an absolutely typical undergraduate student: you soak up every bit of information that confirms your pre-existing beliefs and supports your world view (not to mention your own financial and social advancement) and ignore everything that doesn't fit. 

you keep telling us to read hanson; i'd like to suggest that you read some mullaly and smith.

I try to soak up every bit of information that I can, regardless of what my current beliefs are. If I only took information that confirmed my pre-existing beliefs, then I would be a young earth creationist; I would only believe in a 10000 year old earth; I wouldn't believe in evolution; I would be against stem cell research; etc.

Undergraduate years are usually when people start to challenge what they have already established as their world view.

I'm not trying to push Hanson on you, but if you understand his view, then you will have an idea of what mine is as well. I read Hanson in my chicano studies class because that is what our teacher assigned us in order to give an opposing view. I also read my teachers book, which was quite the opposite of what Hanson puts forth.

Granted, I have only really read three books on this subject, and I have only had one formal class that addressed this subject. My experience with this topic is nowhere near advanced as my understanding of biochemistry, medicine, religion, etc. I'm not claiming to be an expert on this subject, but I feel that I have enough information to take a side at this point. I try to stay open to other ideas, even if it seems that I am not.

Original Post by sun123:

Society is comprised of communities.  

Here in the US there are communities that only know the language from their country of heritage.  These citizens and their prior generations would be surprised to learn they cant or havent functioned in society.  I love that the US has these spots of culture and find the these communites fascinating.   

Many English speaking US citizens only live in a world that doesnt extend past their local community.   No matter whether speaking a countries language or not, assimilating into society is a personal option not required of everyone.  

We're talking about over ten million undocumented immigrants here from mexico. These aren't small communities and the fact that they are here illegally automatically reduces their ability to function in society because of fear of being found out.

Many of the mexican immigrant communities are very poor with high rates of high school drop outs and gang violence. The chicano movement will tell you that this is because they are being discriminated against and pushed into these poor communities. In reality, I'm sure that is true. In addition to that, mexicans intentionally move into these communities as well. They are still better than mexico.

I don't think that these type of communities are good for the mexican immigrants or for the rest of the US. Without a greater level of assimilation between our communities, the poor mexican communities will only grow, leading to more high school dropouts, more gang violence, and more discrimination. That isn't a good solution for anybody.

I didnt quote a post from you about over 10 million undocumented Mexican immigrants.

I quoted your opinions on not being able to speak Korean in Korea which included the presumption that a society is unable to function without everyone assimilating and speaking one language (which I thought was clear since I bolded it). 

Research has shown poor communities grow period. Assimilation is not a cure or native born wouldnt be there in the first place.  Thats a highly complex and researched issue Ive read much on and your solution of asssimilation is not realistic. 

Immigrants as a whole have expressed desire to learn the language and the belief that they would be successful on a wider scale by doing so.  That is a personal decision, though, and the extreme suggestion of not assimilating equating to not functioning though is incorrect and an unfair summary of those (usually first generation immigrants) who are content with choice.

the very fact that this conversation has turned almost exclusively to the issue of immigration from mexico demonstrates a radically narrow view of immigration and multiculturalism.  to form opinions on immigration policy based on the personal experiences of a bunch of white people in california is crazy.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

sim, you strike my as an absolutely typical undergraduate student: you soak up every bit of information that confirms your pre-existing beliefs and supports your world view (not to mention your own financial and social advancement) and ignore everything that doesn't fit. 

you keep telling us to read hanson; i'd like to suggest that you read some mullaly and smith.

For some reason, this reminds me of that Harvard bar scene in Good Will Hunting. LOL Rather oblique with the name calling; it would be nice if personal attacks were left out of the conversation.

The tremendous number of undocumented immigrants is what makes this situation different from any of the other communities of people who don't speak english within the US.

Poor communities grow much faster when there is a constant influx of mexican immigration to those communities. The fact that mexican families have been pushed into these communities doesn't help that either.

Assimilation is not a new concept. Mexican have been immigrating to america for over a century now. In the past, they were required to follow strict assimilation criteria and so we never saw the issues that we are faced with now. This used to be normal protocol, so I'm not sure why you say that it is unrealistic.

It doesn't seem that you have addressed my point that separate communities will only increase ethnic discrimination against these mexican communities. Isn't that the point of laws that require certain numbers of minorities to be enrolled in schools?

Original Post by simwaves1:

Original Post by alibsam:

I know plenty of people living here in Korea that don't speak any Korean and haven't had any problems functioning in society.

You just have your blinders on and want everyone to "assimilate" in the fashion you want. 

This doesn't make sense to me. Either a person knows Korean, or the Koreans know English. Without a similar language to communicate, you can't function in society. You can seclude yourself from society in an english speaking group, but thats different. You can get by in Korea without knowing Korean, but without the ability to communicate with locals, you can't function in society.

Not necessarily. I'm not sure why you're trying to tell me how life works here seeing as how you don't live here.

Original Post by simwaves1:

Original Post by alibsam:

I know plenty of people living here in Korea that don't speak any Korean and haven't had any problems functioning in society.

You just have your blinders on and want everyone to "assimilate" in the fashion you want. 

This doesn't make sense to me. Either a person knows Korean, or the Koreans know English. Without a similar language to communicate, you can't function in society. You can seclude yourself from society in an english speaking group, but thats different. You can get by in Korea without knowing Korean, but without the ability to communicate with locals, you can't function in society.

 i dont really want to get into this conversation too much, but i'll say a little.

sim, i understand that it can be frustrating for you to live in a community where there are communication problems.  im from miami, fl so i come from a similar place as you do.   in miami, pretty much everyone speaks spanish, there is english of course, there is also a lot of haitian and carribean languages, plus all the french that is spoken when the canadians come down for the winter. The neighborhood that my university is such a predominantly hispanic area that all of the signs for the stores in the shopping plazas are written entirely in spanish.  My school is 75% hispanic (out of 38,000 students).  I was waiting in line to get advising at my school one day and all of the 4 people in front of me got their advising done in spanish and my advisor even seemed a little annoyed that i needed to speak english.   i dont think it's racist to want people in america to speak english.  it makes sense that english should at least be available.

however, at the end of the day, we all still manage to get by.   It may be frustrating at times, but not in any significant way that really hinders anyone's life.   Nobody is ever going to be able to communicate with every single other person in the country, but does anyone need to?   Not really.   Someone above me mentioned it, but as long as you can live your life and get what you need, then who cares what everyone else is doing?  If it ever really does start to hinder your life to where you cant get what you need (i doubt it), then adjust your life accordingly (nobody else is going to adjust for you).

Im not even going to start commenting on the insurance or illegal immigration topic. 

Oh also, Ive tried to learn spanish.  Ive actually spent 5 years studying it.  I can read and write it alright, but I'd be a bumbling idiot actually trying to speak it.   There probably are a lot of people out there trying to learn english, but still struggling.

Back to the original question.

Yes, definitely unfair. If it applied equally to all segments of the population I could support it. From what I can see here it's just another seperate and unequal bone being tossed out to keep us attacking each other.