False Information and Disapproval by Father

I'm a new vegan (old vegetarian) and am completely shocked by the way that dairy cows are treated (and how their calves become veal). My problem is that my dad grew up in a farming community and thinks that cows only need to be impregnated once to produce milk for the rest of their lives. He also thinks that most milk comes from small-town farms where animals are treated more humanely than on factory farms, calling my idea of milk farming "junk off the internet." (worded in a more rude manner.) Any advice on how to convince him that this isn't true? My mom supports him because she thinks his firsthand experience still applies in modern times.

Videos, perhaps.  Maybe there are journals about how many male calves are sent to veal farms.  Maybe records can show how often a cow in impregnated.  You need cold hard facts and they're hard to come by, since the factory farming industry takes care to hide them.  Sorry, wish I could help more.

Why don't you simply accept his opinion and agree to differ?  You think dairy farming is cruel, your father (and millions of others including yourself until relatively recently) don't.   I don't think bombarding him with PETA videos will change his opinion any more than a visit to a well-managed dairy farm or abbattoir would change yours.   

Live and let live?

My advice is don't try to change his mind.  Keep up being vegan if it's important to you, but don't try to argue the reasons with your father.

As a previous post suggested, Live and Let Live.  There are several things I disagree with my father on, but I learned long ago that he's not going to change any more than I am.

If your dad is the one initiating the argument, maybe instead of confronting him with what he considers "trash off the internet," just try telling him that it is a personal choice you made and ask if he could please just respect it.

I grew up in a farming community and even family owned farms are huge and use factory type methods to operate....that being said.

I can understand where you are coming from, my sister is a vegetarian and no one else in our family is, myself included, and we allow her to eat whatever she likes without comment, as she doesn't comment on what we eat.  (I say 'allow' because she was 13 when she became a vegetarian, so it really was my parents allowing her)  She has even cooked meals for the entire family containing meat, and made her own portion without.

However, there is nothing worse than someone who ignorantly preaches their lifestyle, regardless of what it is.  On some points you and your father will both be right, there are a lot of inhumane factory farms, but there are also many small farmers who treat animals humanely  There are lots of vegetable farms that thrive from the manure that comes from animal farms...etc.  There is no need to vindicate your choices by proving him wrong, or vice versa.  You can respectfully agree to disagree, and make a promise to neither preach nor force the other to do or see things the other way.  Nothing good will come of fighting tooth and nail about this.

Good luck!

Try leaving the virtual world of the internet once and a while get out and explore the real world, you might learn something.  You might even find places where cows live and see for yourself that the PETA propaganda is 99% lies.

Not to be rude, but are you even a vegetarian?

Secondly, you assumed that my father was correct in assuming that I recieved my information from the internet. However, I thouroughly researched the topic in books at the library as well as on educational and research data bases (paid for by the college). I recognize that many cows are treated humanely, but the industry has become so overgrown that many are not. And veal, the byproduct of the dairy industry, is undeniably wrong to me, regardless of how the dairy cows are actually treated.

Speaking of seeing the real world ...

If Dad likes to travel, bring him on a lovely scenic trip to Sunnyside, Washington.  I'm sure he will enjoy the sights, the smells, and the groundwater contamination of an area highly dependent on industrial dairy production.  And, in light of the volume and market share of industrial dairy, you can be reasonably sure that, unless you specifically look for humane dairy ... you aren't going to stumble across it in the supermarket.

Now that I no longer live near Sunnyside, my daily commute takes me instead past IBP, Inc., subsidiary of Tyson Foods, an industrial slaughterhouse for one of the largest meat packing companies in the world.  I have never attempted to count the actual number of cattle on the lot, but they are packed in quite tightly over at least a square mile.  Thus, my estimate is in the hundreds of thousands on any given day.  Impressive mounds of waste, at least the part you can see (pipes tend to keep the liquid waste well hidden).  And, oh yes, again that smell ...

You can see these things for yourself if you know where to look.  Peta is too inflammatory in their tactics for me, but I applaud their guerrila video infiltration tactics to show what really goes on in industrial animal farming.  Sorry, folks, cameras don't lie.

But why do you see it as your job to re-educate your father?  Isn't that a little patronising?

in my experience, veg-evangelism doesn't often work out so well. i say leave your dad alone, if he wants to do his own research at some point it will probably impact his opinion more. at the same time, don't be afraid to stick up for your point of view, maybe by just pointing out that while you disagree with his opinion, you still respect it, and you would appreciate the same respect from him.

what's wrong with the internet, anyway? i don't understand why people think it's full of lies? ;P

Okay, just to clarify:  Your dad is wrong.  It's not "he can have his opinions, and you can have yours" because what we are talking about are the FACTS of commercial dairy farming, and one of you is right, and one is wrong...and you know which is which.

But having said that, you cannot change his mind.  I'm in the same position as you are: my parents were farmers, I was born on a farm, and though my immediate family no longer farms, my grandfather, aunts, uncles, and cousins still farm and my parents still own farmland.  And my father will never, never admit that animals are treated cruelly.  Partly it's because his farm was (and still is) a small family farm, and he'd like to think that's how all farms operate.  Mostly it's because he DOESN'T WANT TO KNOW!  He likes meat, he likes not thinking about where it comes from.  He will ignore facts when confronted with them because he has no intention of changing, no matter what reasons there are for doing so.

Dads are notoriously stubborn.  I wouldn't waste my time proselytizing to him.  It will just make you look bad and ruin your relationship.  Just walk the walk, and don't bother talking the talk (with him at least).  Some people are receptive to change, others never will be, and I have found that if you want to change people's practices, you cannot be too patient in determining who wants to hear what you have to say and who doesn't.  Tread lightly, for animal rights people are villains in our society.  Few people want to hear what you have to say, and those that don't won't hesitate to nag at you for "preaching" if you so much as THINK "factory farm" while they're "enjoying" their fleshburger. 

Okay, so now you know what I think!   Don't let your dad bully you, but don't start needless fights with him, either.  Whatever you do, Good luck! 

So I am not a vegetarian because I host the Sunday Dinner at my house with a TON of relatives all of which are Rediculously over opinionated about what I do with my life.  ("why are we using Cloth napkins?" "why is it under 80 degrees in here?")  Anyway we have many different dishes at the table and one main piece which is ofcourse some sort of meat weather it be a wild turkey,  deer or beef from a local farm that I know the owner of that treats his animals very humanely and has organic grass fed beef.    1 wild turkey that lived in my in laws back yard can feed 28 people with left overs which I push on them but anything left goes to my husbands lunches and the rest of the week I eat vegetarian meals.  I know the horrors of the farming industry and so I avoid it at all costs and I make sure my relatives have the option of having the food they believe in as responsibly as possible.  At the beginning of the meal I offer a prayer for the animal and the people who raised it properly and that others may follow in thier foot steps... it is woven into a total prayer for "creation"(my extended family are VERY religious.)   The point of this is your father BELIEVES that most farms are good and do not treat animals inhumanely... You believe that obstaining from eating them will help the cause.  so you stop eating meat and try talking your father into following his beliefs and only purchaseing meat from which he knows how the animals were raised.  if he can get on board with that maybe he cna compromise with other things like saving large quantities of meat for special ocasions and not for every meal (having oatmeal for breakfast instead of a breakfast sandwhich)  this is the way I was raised (not due to beliefss but out of need) meat was once expensive and eaten weekly not daily let alone at every meal... if he doesn't listen to "Trash on the internet" hit him with traditions... Thats how I work it.  Baby steps and mutual respect for beliefs is the way to go.  My sister has been a Vegetarian since age 13 though couldn't cook and only ate junk food because she didn't have the respect of my family for her choice and mom tried to prepare vegetables with meat in it so I lended my hand and became a very good vegetarian cook if I do say so myself.  At 27 my sisters lifestyle is finally accepted and my mom went back to her traditional Sunday meat  traditions... good luck... don't give up and learn to cook nutrious meals

i was veggie for 11 years 5  being vegan ....and dealt with endless family comments related to my not eating something at gatherings..so annoying..so disrespectful that on the flip i now dont tell folks how to eat  at all..because it annoys me completely to have my practices scrutinized..so i do live and let live..no one is better than thou....my change in diet came about due to anemia and hormonal issues related to using too much soy for protein....so a little dairy and little fish came back into the picture for health reasons...as industries go  i  think most of the first world chooses to not know fully what all we consume comes from....the practices in food and agriculture are just the beginning...our clothes and shoes our furniture cleaning products are equally oppressive...bascially everthing in walmart and target...and i think most americans live in an ignorance is bliss reality..its not my job to change peeps but gain my own assertiveness and choose to support or not something based on knowldge and honestly sometimes based on what i can afford that month.......and sadly i do beleive peta does have some propaganda and politics attached ..although i do support veggie lifestyle completely ..but  i also believe in acknowledging that sometimes the meatlike veggie products peeps love require so much processing and transportation that they also have huge carbon footprint issues as well......when maybe they couldve eaten a local free range egg instead........

eating organically locally cruelty free is the way to go for me...

and hopefully i can afford it..i recognize its a huge privilige..

and some cannot afford it...so i dont criticize those who cannot or dont want to.. especially now in this current economy... 

Original Post by thermal:

I grew up in a farming community and even family owned farms are huge and use factory type methods to operate....that being said.

I can understand where you are coming from, my sister is a vegetarian and no one else in our family is, myself included, and we allow her to eat whatever she likes without comment, as she doesn't comment on what we eat.  (I say 'allow' because she was 13 when she became a vegetarian, so it really was my parents allowing her)  She has even cooked meals for the entire family containing meat, and made her own portion without.

However, there is nothing worse than someone who ignorantly preaches their lifestyle, regardless of what it is.  On some points you and your father will both be right, there are a lot of inhumane factory farms, but there are also many small farmers who treat animals humanely  There are lots of vegetable farms that thrive from the manure that comes from animal farms...etc.  There is no need to vindicate your choices by proving him wrong, or vice versa.  You can respectfully agree to disagree, and make a promise to neither preach nor force the other to do or see things the other way.  Nothing good will come of fighting tooth and nail about this.

Good luck!

I do agree with you!

I'm a vegetarian and eat dairy - organic only though.
I believe organic, with the milk with NO growth hormones, antibiotics, or anything else from that sort.

If anyone has ever been pregnant.... right after you give birth (i recently had my first son October of `08) you feel that need to "get milked" and when I had problems, my son didn't latch on so we had to bottle feed.. well I couldn't really get milkd and the pain was tremendous and excruciating it would hurt to do any kind of movement... so I do believe they definitely need to be milked no matter where that milk is going because the pain is just unbarable. I do only drink the organic because i trust it more and they do treat cows and such with the respect they deserve!! so i can just say, if your father doen't agree.. which most people don't, that's fine, just hopefully he can find the respect for you and what you want to put into your body and not and maybe he'll realize over time everything will be fine and you'll get the right amount of nutrients without the death of an animal on your plate