Annoying Muscle loss. Need Help!
I don't know for sure if this is the perfect subforum to be posting under, but if not, please direct me to the proper Sub. I have been weight training for quite a long time now, and i have relised that no matter how hard I work, my muscles get more defined (slowly), but will not increase in size. Any efforts that I exhaust provide me with near instant results, then I get sore, take my protein, and I am nice and pumped, but before it is time to lift again, they are reverted to the pre-workout condition they were in pre-last workout! I don't understand why. I workout vigorously for 3 hours and then do 30 minutes to 60 Minutes of hard cardio. Can anybody help me? I am 16 Years old and aprox. 210 Pounds and at six foot two inches.
Original Post by ath_elite:
I don't know for sure if this is the perfect subforum to be posting under, but if not, please direct me to the proper Sub. I have been weight training for quite a long time now, and i have relised that no matter how hard I work, my muscles get more defined (slowly), but will not increase in size. Any efforts that I exhaust provide me with near instant results, then I get sore, take my protein, and I am nice and pumped, but before it is time to lift again, they are reverted to the pre-workout condition they were in pre-last workout! I don't understand why. I workout vigorously for 3 hours and then do 30 minutes to 60 Minutes of hard cardio. Can anybody help me? I am 16 Years old and aprox. 210 Pounds and at six foot two inches.
Ok, breathe deeply, it will all be ok.
Directly after you lift you will get a certain amount of "pump" - which is an increase in blood flow to the areas you've trained. Its temporary.
That's why brahs wear wife beaters and flex in the mirror after curling.
What you put in your gob is responsible for your size not how much you workout. If you are lifting and in caloric deficit, you will get smaller. If you are lifting and in caloric surplus, you will get bigger. The hard cardio may be contributing to placing you in a calorie deficit so therefore you aren't growing as much as you would like.
Also at 6'2 and 210lbs, if you are in the low teens bodyfat-wise then you are probably at a stage where muscle growth has slowed significantly.
If you want more specific advice then we would need to know your lifting history (squat, bench, deadlift, power clean, row etc), what your current programming looks like and what your goals are.
1. Try some creatine mono hydrates or other supplements and vitamins.
2. Vary your routine. There are a number of weightlifting techniques you may not have exhausted yet... negative reps, decreasing weight burnouts, supersets, partial reps, sets of 50-100, etc.
3. find more lifts. There are dozens of lifts for any muscle you want to hit, each one works a slightly different angle. do 3-4 lifts per muscle on the first split and a different 3-4 on the next split, or 6-8 on a single day every so often.
Original Post by nicholas_shannon:
You don't look like you lost 80 lbs. why would you want to get bigger? You look quite healthy and ready to simply keep what you have and just enjoy life.
Perhaps he wants to be awesome rather than just "keep what you have and just enjoy life".
@ nicholas shannon Well I have lost 80 pounds and don't get me wrong, I REALLY am happy with what I have achieved, but I want to achieve more.
@michaelduff I am great-full for you taking your time to give me a helping hand. I do understand that my muscles will be pumped after a workout and will naturally go down, but it seems like they never get any bigger. If you want, I care enough about results to post my workout routine to see if it helps. Again my problem seems to follow back to my caloric intake. I have been told before that I burn to many calories (the machine has ranged from as low as 500 Calories to as high as 1400 Calories) and that causes my metabolism to go into shock and it puts everything I eat into reserve. My only problem is that i am afraid to eat to many calories. I have had about 15 pounds to lose for almost a year, and no matter how much I deficit, I only got off 10 pounds and for the last 3 months have completley plateaued. I am affraid to gain weight and I am not for sure how much I should eat, regardless of these online calculators.
Original Post by ath_elite:
@ nicholas shannon Well I have lost 80 pounds and don't get me wrong, I REALLY am happy with what I have achieved, but I want to achieve more.
@michaelduff I am great-full for you taking your time to give me a helping hand. I do understand that my muscles will be pumped after a workout and will naturally go down, but it seems like they never get any bigger. If you want, I care enough about results to post my workout routine to see if it helps. Again my problem seems to follow back to my caloric intake. I have been told before that I burn to many calories (the machine has ranged from as low as 500 Calories to as high as 1400 Calories) and that causes my metabolism to go into shock and it puts everything I eat into reserve. My only problem is that i am afraid to eat to many calories. I have had about 15 pounds to lose for almost a year, and no matter how much I deficit, I only got off 10 pounds and for the last 3 months have completley plateaued. I am affraid to gain weight and I am not for sure how much I should eat, regardless of these online calculators.
As a FFG*, I understand your fears. The stuff in bold isn't reality.
Perhaps, your weight, especially at your height isn't the problem, but rather a lack of muscle. You have lost a great deal of weight (congrats btw) so maybe it is time for a different approach and perhaps allowing yourself some relax (this doesn't include making the Hamburglar your best friend) for a short period of time.
The mod, Melkor, has discussed the benefits of some calorie surplus after a long run of calorie restriction. Hopefully if will see this post and pick up on that and give your better, more scientific explanations (or you could PM him with a link to this post).
If you like detail your currently training program, including your lifts, and we'll see if we can give you some help there.
*FFG - former fat guy
Original Post by nicholas_shannon:
It takes years sometimes to bulk up really big. You need at least 6 months at it. But here are some ideas....
1. Try some creatine mono hydrates or other supplements and vitamins. Makes 1 to 2% difference
2. Vary your routine. There are a number of weightlifting techniques you may not have exhausted yet... negative reps, decreasing weight burnouts, supersets, partial reps, sets of 50-100, etc. Nope, consistency is key
3. find more lifts. There are dozens of lifts for any muscle you want to hit, each one works a slightly different angle. do 3-4 lifts per muscle on the first split and a different 3-4 on the next split, or 6-8 on a single day every so often. Angles = broscience for the most part
OP, what you're experiencing is a temporary pump. Don't panic, you're not losing muscle.
As suggested building muscle takes time and consistency.
You said your workouts last 3 hours? sounds pretty long to be honest.
What's your split like mate?
Original Post by ath_elite: I workout vigorously for 3 hours and then do 30 minutes to 60 Minutes of hard cardio. Can anybody help me? I am 16 Years old and aprox. 210 Pounds and at six foot two inches.
3 hours? Three hours? Really? Plus 30-60 minutes of "hard cardio"?
What in the hell are you doing that it takes 3 god-blessed hours?
Why in the hell are you doing 30-60 minutes of cardio on top of 3 hours of work?
What is this I don't even
I can't imagine not burning off all your muscle by spending 4 hours in the gym. That's probably part of your problem right there. The most important components for gaining muscle are rest and recovery. That means eating and sleeping, not spending 4 hours in the gym.
You may want to eat at maintenance for a while, or even a small surplus. And make sure you are getting plenty of sleep. Then start a good beginner lifting routine like "Starting Strength". Track your progress by your lifting numbers, and not by looking at your muscles in the mirror. Then after you've gained some significant strength, you can shift back to trying to lose that last bit of fat. If you try to do both at once, you're going to be frustrated.
2. Consistency is key. That's why I said it takes years. However, bodybuilders have been using those techniques for decades. I can't agree with Simon that they should be ignored.
3. Yes, it is science. There's method to the madness of getting awesome.
4. Solid555 might have hit something. If you're honestly working out that much you may have hit a period of diminishing returns. Stress + rest might mean you need a week or two of light workouts to let your system recover a bit. Runners often talk about taking "easy weeks" every once in a while- I assume the same benefits may apply to bodybuilding.
Original Post by solid555:I can't imagine not burning off all your muscle by spending 4 hours in the gym. That's probably part of your problem right there. The most important components for gaining muscle are rest and recovery. That means eating and sleeping, not spending 4 hours in the gym.
Amen. It's when your muscles are recovering that they they begin to get bigger. When you weight train, you make tiny tears in your muscles and it is in their repair that you become stronger. If you're not giving your body adequate time to repair itself you're not giving those tears the opportunity to heal. Give yourself at least 2 days between each muscle group, and don't work the same muscles in succession. You know, legs one day, core next work out etc. etc. Also, to reiterate what has already been said, 3 hours of cardio is insane. That's probably the biggest reason you're not seeing any gains.
Original Post by solid555:
I can't imagine not burning off all your muscle by spending 4 hours in the gym. That's probably part of your problem right there. The most important components for gaining muscle are rest and recovery. That means eating and sleeping, not spending 4 hours in the gym.
You may want to eat at maintenance for a while, or even a small surplus. And make sure you are getting plenty of sleep. Then start a good beginner lifting routine like "Starting Strength". Track your progress by your lifting numbers, and not by looking at your muscles in the mirror. Then after you've gained some significant strength, you can shift back to trying to lose that last bit of fat. If you try to do both at once, you're going to be frustrated.
Totally agree. When you weight lift, you are creating micro-tears in the muscle fibers. The tears you created while weight lifting are repaired during rest and these "scars" on your muscle are what leads to muscle growth.
Original Post by nicholas_shannon:
I partly agree and partly disagree ith simongeorge. I think hes more geared toward powerlifting- not bodybuilding. 1. Supplements are the smaller part- its mostly just your own work. But they might help put things over the edge. Agreed, if other variables are in place.
2. Consistency is key. That's why I said it takes years. However, bodybuilders have been using those techniques for decades. I can't agree with Simon that they should be ignored. Only after they've exhausted beginner and intermediate gains. The changing things up and muscle confusion is largely a myth pushed by bodybuilding mags to sell different workouts each month.
3. Yes, it is science. There's method to the madness of getting awesome. No, it's often a misunderstanding of human anatomy and the way the body functions, again pushed by bodybuilding mags
There are plenty of brahs in my gym that are there for hours and torch nothing - fat or muscle - 'cause they are wandering around staring at themselves in the mirror broken by intermittent bouts of curls, machine chest presses and machine rows.
Until we know what his workout actually looks like its very hard to help fix it.
It doesn't take years to put on some decent muscle if you are a relative novice and that is difficult to tell until we know his lifts, his programming and his ~bodyfat.
And 16yos have the number 1 supp in the business - bucketloads of vitamin T.
2. I agree with Simon. I was assuming you're leaving the beginner stage. "muscle confusion" is a name some guys in suits invented to sound cool and fancy. In practice it's just trying new things to help break new ground when you plateau.
3. Decades of science doesn't lie.
Weightlifting isn't cardio. It takes 3 hours because you rest between sets. Don't take weightlifting advice from a physical trainer. They focus on keeping your heart rate up. They don't know jack zhit about weightlifting. You can't build serious muscle dancing around with Zumba and childish calisthenics and jumping on boxes like a girl. It's like building a road... Would you want a shovel, or would you want a bulldozer?
Original Post by nicholas_shannon:
We're not talking to a beginner here. He's young, but he knows what he's doing. It does take years to bulk up BIG. Anyone can go at it for 6-9 months and get great returns, but it sounds like you want to take it to the next level.
2. I agree with Simon. I was assuming you're leaving the beginner stage. "muscle confusion" is a name some guys in suits invented to sound cool and fancy. In practice it's just trying new things to help break new ground when you plateau.
3. Decades of science doesn't lie.
Weightlifting isn't cardio. It takes 3 hours because you rest between sets. Don't take weightlifting advice from a physical trainer. They focus on keeping your heart rate up. They don't know jack zhit about weightlifting. You can't build serious muscle dancing around with Zumba and childish calisthenics and jumping on boxes like a girl. It's like building a road... Would you want a shovel, or would you want a bulldozer?
There's no science, Bodybuilding is overflowing with broscience and bs, believe me. I enjoy the sport, I've got to know quite a few competitors closely over the last couple of years. Majority of the things you've ever read about workouts in magazines is complete and utter BS.
To be honest it opened my eyes a little and I appreciate the sport more now.
It doesn't take 3 hours for a serious workout mate, it's of popular belief that it would actually be detrimental and not optimal for growth.
My sessions are done in less than an hour and I've built a fair amount of mass.
Where do you get some of your info from? Your advice is often way off the mark and counter productive IMO.
Original Post by michaelduff:
Until we know what his workout actually looks like its very hard to help fix it.
We know that he's working 4 hours at a time and has lost 33% of his bodyweight. Significant caloric deficit plus insane levels of stress on the body is not a recipe for adding muscle mass.
And no, it doesn't take 3 hours because you rest between sets. It's possible to get a significant workout in under an hour. But you have to follow an intelligent program, eat correctly, and get significant rest.
Length of your sessions may or may not be an issue, plenty of Olympic lifters who train for at least that length of time and who've managed to grow to a decent size though not specifically training for muscle. Doing 3-4 hours of a body building workout is a different matter, at that point you've gone from a strength workout to something more like manual labor and there's a limit to the potential muscle development from digging ditches and mowing lawns.
So it comes down to the details of your workout, write them out and we'll see if what you're doing is aligning with your goals, yeah?
As a FFG muself, yeah, it's easy to fall into the mindset of being scared of any fat gain and we have a tendency to have poorer insulin sensitivity than the never-obese have at a similar body fat percentage, but the upshot of that is not that we should avoid calorie surpluses altogether, just that you'll lose muscular insulin sensitivity at around 14-16% body fat rather than 18-20% where the never-obese tend to lose theirs. Which is less of a disadvantage than you'd think, naturals shouldn't try for huge swings in body fat levels anyway given how much growth time you lose out on when dieting back down.
Lyle has some really detailed examinations of the very messy intricacies of leptin signalling tied to your body fat levels and the number of body fat cells that goes deep into the exact gene expressions that explains the differences in some of his books and articles, but unless you have a burning desire to prepare for a career in research I don't think reading the background material will be very useful compared to printing out a version of a 5x5 strength program from the Starting Strength wiki and following that for a year or three.
I'm convinced most of the bodybuilding intensification techniques are done to stave off boredom rather than to serve any real physiological purpose. There is some theoretical justification for 20-30 rep pump workouts beyond that of giving your joints a rest from heavy loading, but death march workouts like GVT are more of an exercise in masochism than anything else.
Original Post by cnichols2000:
Original Post by michaelduff:
Until we know what his workout actually looks like its very hard to help fix it.
We know that he's working 4 hours at a time and has lost 33% of his bodyweight. Significant caloric deficit plus insane levels of stress on the body is not a recipe for adding muscle mass.
And no, it doesn't take 3 hours because you rest between sets. It's possible to get a significant workout in under an hour. But you have to follow an intelligent program, eat correctly, and get significant rest.
This is absolutely true but he's also a 16yo kid on the internet. Before jumping up and down about what he's doing, I rather wait to see exactly what he is doing.
He's obviously not going to add muscle while in a calorie deficit and given he's lost an enormous amount of weight in a relatively short period of time, so he's obviously had a significant deficit.
But he's also just as likely to be nervous to go into a calorie surplus if he's still 20% bodyfat and, as a 16yo, I wouldn't want to be recommending that for him. On the other hand if he's 12-14% bodyfat, then a period of being in calorie surplus and getting himself to a decent squat, deadlift and bench is really what he seems to be seeking.
That's why I believe more information is required - goals, lifts, guess at bodyfat.
