Will I still have to eat 2500 cals, even though I'm around the lowest healthy bmi right now?
Or could it be enough with around 1700-2000 cals from now on?
(+ excersice.)
*smacks sarah's hand... *
stop it!! 2,500+...
I think you already know the answer to this. Do you honestly just want to dangle on the lowest edge of healthy? If yes, then by all means, decrease your calories. If you don't want to relapse repeatedly and want to actually live instead of exist, you know what you need to do. I merely existed for years. Now I live, and it's so much better.
From the mouth of the wonderful hedgren -
Phase III - Bones, muscles, almost there
Assuming you have been purposefully eating your 2500 calories right up to this phase, then you start to get rewarded for all your hard work to help your body repair itself.
Osteopenia and osteoporosis begin to reverse (the completion of that may take up to 7 years, but it begins to reverse in this phase).
The fat deposited around the mid-section is now carefully redistributed throughout the body.
Hair, nails and skin begin to have increased pliability and suppleness.
You also start to feel more connected and self-imposed isolation diminishes. You feels less emotional blunting and start to want things for your life.
This occurs about 4-6 months along the recovery path (depending on the starting point) and will be around BMI 18.5-20.
A few anorexics will resume their menstrual cycles at this point, although they are the minority.
Unfortunately this is often when an almost-fully recovered anorexic makes a series of mistakes (often also due to misguided advice even from her own medical and professional team). She assumes she can now maintain her weight and that she is recovered.
Instead, she relapses again within the year. Why?
Final Critical Phase: Leptin or Relapse.
It is rare that an ED patient will attain pre-ED leptin levels at BMI 18.5-20. Usually, due to the physiological implications of having an ED, leptin levels are lower in recovered ED patients than in normal controls who are exactly the same weight/height/age as the ED patient. (as I mentioned earlier)
To get an optimal leptin level as a recovered ED patient, you need to shoot for the high range of a healthy BMI (21-25). We know that the higher a recovered ED patient ends up on the BMI scale, the less likely she is to relapse.
A marker for sufficient leptin in your body will be the resumption of a regular period. An anorexic needs to continue to gain until her periods resume -- she also needs to avoid exercise until that happens.
From there, you can now maintain your weight -- but even then there is a catch. You must have a maintenance intake plus an additional 30% more calories every day for another 6 months beyond hitting your maintenance BMI.
No science, just personal experience to keep things short: I kept eating 2500-3000 and MORE if I felt hungry, 85% of the times eating a bit more towards the 3000 mark. I now maintain on 2500 (...+ haha!) with exercise.
I think you probably know the answer to this, and honestly, I don't think YOUR asking this question I think your EATING DISORDER is.
You should know that with exercise and eating around 1700 calories, you'll probably lose weight. Is that what you wanted to hear?
If you lose weight, being around the lowest healthy bmi, you'll quickly fall to underweight again. Thus, the cycle repeats.
Do you get your period regularly?
Original Post by suspendue_lahaut:
No science, just personal experience to keep things short: I kept eating 2500-3000 and MORE if I felt hungry, 85% of the times eating a bit more towards the 3000 mark. I now maintain on 2500 (...+ haha!) with exercise.
I love those examples of positive personal experience.. ! May I ask which weight/bmi do you maintain now by eating those daily 2500? Did you gain much initial weight by upping your cals to 2500? And how did you cope with it, if so?
Original Post by livinallnatural:
I think you probably know the answer to this, and honestly, I don't think YOUR asking this question I think your EATING DISORDER is.
You should know that with exercise and eating around 1700 calories, you'll probably lose weight. Is that what you wanted to hear?
If you lose weight, being around the lowest healthy bmi, you'll quickly fall to underweight again. Thus, the cycle repeats.
Do you get your period regularly?
Well, I didnt make a mp of app. 1700 cals.. my therapist and dietician did. This mp was supposed to be a maintaining plan, while she's on holiday. They might adjust it closer to 2000 when she gets back though. They dont see anything wrong with a bmi of 18,5 or 19. But no, I havent got my period for..uhmm.. yeah, since November 2009. So this is one of the strongest motivators for me to keep pushing through recovery and get healthier. Yet my therapist say, that you CAN get pregnant, allthough you might not have your period.. ovulation can still be possible.. but its not an excuse to keep myself from a healthier weight. Coz getting pregnant is not a guarantee. AND there are chances for osteoporosis and thinning of bones connected to being undeweight and not having a period.. She does say, that when you're at a normal weight, it may take 1 year (maintaining a stabile) normal weight before the period returns. so a high bmi is not always equal to getting your peiod back right away.
:o)))
Original Post by sarahdenmark:
Original Post by suspendue_lahaut:
No science, just personal experience to keep things short: I kept eating 2500-3000 and MORE if I felt hungry, 85% of the times eating a bit more towards the 3000 mark. I now maintain on 2500 (...+ haha!) with exercise.
I love those examples of positive personal experience.. ! May I ask which weight/bmi do you maintain now by eating those daily 2500? Did you gain much initial weight by upping your cals to 2500? And how did you cope with it, if so?
I now maintain a BMI 20.5; but I know I'll be gaining weight sooner or later, I'm only 16 years old, and still growing. I won't weigh the same when I'm 21, that's for sure.
Like I said, when I was trying to gain weight, I was eating an absolute minimum of 2500 (If I hadn't reached that much before bed, I just grabbed a jar of PB; had to reach it!). Gained til I got to a BMI of 19; healthy, just not exactly what my body wants. Thought I could start maintaining, so I dropped my calories to about 1800, and maintained for a couple months.
Then I realized I might be tricking myself into restriction: If I tried to count the calories I'd normally consume, pre-ED, I'd end up nowhere under 2500... So I thought "to hell with it"; upped back to 2500, if I gain, it's what I'm supposed to be like anyway, it's a truth, can't change that. I can't be fooling myself. [<-- Not wanting to fool myself and be in such a ridiculous situation gave me some motivation, among other personal motivation of course]
I did gain weight... a few lbs. But the only difference people noticed was how my face was no longer grey. So I only gained from BMI 19 to 20.5.
If you know where you've always been before, when you were healthy, ED-free, and followed your guts instead of numbers, you know your body will bring itself to the same place again: That is it's optimal functioning weight. The body is not a calculator, there aren't any formulas that are EXACT, give it what it wants, it'll give you what you want need, and that's optimal health. (Your ED might fool you into wanting something else!)
Eroth Well that was not only incredibly rude but incredibly triggering. Hedgren is in fact a doctor and specialises in EDs. So take your determination not to get better somewhere else.
The original post has been moderated and can no longer be quoted.
Well, at least this is straight honest talking! Maybe its triggering. he** yes it is. but you are actually just saying what I've been thinking for a long time.. There are different theories about recovery. And I honestly think that one should do what works best for her/him in the current situation. Is it 2500 cals or 100000 cals, so be it. Is 1800-2000 a good ammount, so be it. Some countries might have their own way of doing it. We are not the same. But whatever will take us to the same goal is all good!
I'm sorry to hear about your situation with osteoporosis. It runs in my family too.. You're so lucky though, that you still have your period. I didnt have my period since September 2009, and this my biggest motivation to let my body heal. H***, I dont want to be skinny or underweight anymore.. its not my focus now. I've opened my eyes to things, that are more important, such as health and wanting to live my life. BUT as you mentioned, I find it extremely hard and triggering to just keep purposely gaining beyond a bmi of 20. I'm happy it works for some. Good for them. But personally I must admit I am on the same wagon like you, hun.
My bmi is as today 18,3. And I wouldnt bother to gain a few more lbs. BUT its not my main-focus. I cannot push myself to do it. If it happens, then it happens. And so I gotta cope with it.
Original Post by suspendue_lahaut:
I now maintain a BMI 20.5; but I know I'll be gaining weight sooner or later, I'm only 16 years old, and still growing. I won't weigh the same when I'm 21, that's for sure.
Like I said, when I was trying to gain weight, I was eating an absolute minimum of 2500 (If I hadn't reached that much before bed, I just grabbed a jar of PB; had to reach it!). Gained til I got to a BMI of 19; healthy, just not exactly what my body wants. Thought I could start maintaining, so I dropped my calories to about 1800, and maintained for a couple months.
Then I realized I might be tricking myself into restriction: If I tried to count the calories I'd normally consume, pre-ED, I'd end up nowhere under 2500... So I thought "to hell with it"; upped back to 2500, if I gain, it's what I'm supposed to be like anyway, it's a truth, can't change that. I can't be fooling myself. [<-- Not wanting to fool myself and be in such a ridiculous situation gave me some motivation, among other personal motivation of course]
I did gain weight... a few lbs. But the only difference people noticed was how my face was no longer grey. So I only gained from BMI 19 to 20.5.
If you know where you've always been before, when you were healthy, ED-free, and followed your guts instead of numbers, you know your body will bring itself to the same place again: That is it's optimal functioning weight. The body is not a calculator, there aren't any formulas that are EXACT, give it what it wants, it'll give you what you want need, and that's optimal health. (Your ED might fool you into wanting something else!)
Well, I had eating disordered tendencies for about 6 years or so. And always desired to loose a bit weight. My weight has been consistantly flucturing in a range of 44-48 kgs for some years. (have in mind, that I'm petite build, and only 155 cm.) I develloped anorexia/anorexia athletica in 2009, and lost a bunch of weight in no time. As from then, it sadly became an obsession. I've had many relapses in my attempt to get better in recovery. But I've been put on a good recovery team for a while now.
I did have a bmi of 22-23 when I was around 20 years old. It was a time, where I was in college, and did no excersice whatsoever. I was quite passive, And my eating habits was not healthy. I was kinda slim, yes, but I DID look a bit heavy at some points. Especially because I'm tiny miny build, lol. I dont feel comfortable with that weight. However, the years after that, I naturally slimmed down (without even trying, just changing my lifestyle a bit.) and my weight fell to around bmi 20,5-21. I maintained that for some years, still eating what I was craving, but never gained more weight.
My gut feeling is, that I may function a whole lot better with that bmi. But its not a must for me to reach it again.. as long as I'm not hurting my body and as long as I can function well with bmi 18,5-20, I see no reason to force myself gaining more. ONLY if my body wants.
But its great and interesting to read your experiences, and how it worked for you by eating 2500 cals.
Original post has been moderated and can no longer be quoted.
Hedgren is a doctor who is currently writing a book on ED's. She knows more tha the rest of us put together. Turning the tables, are you qualified to say her theories are 'bullsh*t' - just asking.
So, you say you don't want to live a long life? and will never go above a BMI of 19. Well Eroth, that is very, very sad... I thought you were doing better now...
Sorry, but your ED is venting full throttle in this post.
As someone who is struggling accepting a bmi of 20 and getting in a horrible cycle of restricting, eating etc etc I thought I would have a read of this thread. I just dont understand it.
I really wish people would stop posting on here if they don't agree with the advice they know they will get. The original question has been asked numerous times, answered numerous times and backed by various opinions and scientific knowledge. Regardless of who is right or wrong, stop posting questions on a website when you dont want to hear the answer people will give you. It just wastes everyones time. I appreciate anorexia and other eating disorders need repetition to help battle the 'voices'. I totally know and understand that. However, if you just want to argue with the advice you are given go elsewhere.
Geez some people need to grow up. Thank you to those who have shared their experiences with such good faith. They help those of us who are trying to get better.
Original Post by sarahdenmark:I did have a bmi of 22-23 when I was around 20 years old. It was a time, where I was in college, and did no excersice whatsoever. I was quite passive, And my eating habits was not healthy. I was kinda slim, yes, but I DID look a bit heavy at some points. Especially because I'm tiny miny build, lol. I dont feel comfortable with that weight. However, the years after that, I naturally slimmed down (without even trying, just changing my lifestyle a bit.) and my weight fell to around bmi 20,5-21. I maintained that for some years, still eating what I was craving, but never gained more weight.
My gut feeling is, that I may function a whole lot better with that bmi. But its not a must for me to reach it again.. as long as I'm not hurting my body and as long as I can function well with bmi 18,5-20, I see no reason to force myself gaining more. ONLY if my body wants.
Since you slimmed down naturally to bmi 20-21while listening to your body, you can suppose it's where you were meant to be. And you'd actually look slim like that.
And no, you can't force yourself to gain, you're right! But we can't force our bodies to stay thinner than they want either, can we? I know I keep repeating this over and over on this forum, but our bodies are no calculators, no exact formula applies to everyone: give your body what it wants, it always pays off.
So don't force yourself into anything other than your gut feeling, good luck!
Eroth: Hedgren is an expert. And I sometimes too feel there's some "worshiping" going on, but let's face it: During recovery, anorexics want scientific proof for everything. Science is a lot more reassuring for any human than sweet talk is. And the things she says didn't come out of the blue, most of the facts she provides us with come from studies and experiments, plus all the experience she has dealing with ED patients. This is why many people here quote her so much. And it's helped lots of people move forward and face their fears: They knew there was scientific evidence behind what they're being told is best for them. But like I already said, there's no formula that applies exactly to everyone; 2500 cals might suit some, others can find they can maintain on less or more. The absolute key is listening to one's body, not numbers. But when you've literally forgotten how to eat, you need numbers to guide you and give you an idea of what you're doing, until you're ready to listen to your body again. But most bodies are not even designed to be less than BMI 20: If you tell yourself you're not ready to gain to that BMI or more, there's a big chance you're preventing recovery, you're not letting your body do what it wants because you're no listening to it. But about the other things you mentioned, I have no big info about osteoporosis, still, is that an excuse to keep starving and not thinking straight or fighting to take control over your life again, so you can live decently and have pride in yourself? I don't care if you're older, there will always be things you want to accomplish other than an ED. Nothing might seem to convince you to give up the ED, I mean the stupid "Your family loves you- You'll hurt your friends if you die- You have potential" kind of crap never worked or me. It took a **** load more meaningful and REALLY deep things to get me out of the eating disorder.
All that to tell you, no, an ED is not a fatality.
Original Post by sarahdenmark:
My gut feeling is, that I may function a whole lot better with that bmi. But its not a must for me to reach it again.. as long as I'm not hurting my body and as long as I can function well with bmi 18,5-20, I see no reason to force myself gaining more. ONLY if my body wants.
But what if staying trapped in this vicious circle IS harming your body? - Look, i know I'm going on, and I'll stop after this, but I have been stuck in the nearly-but-not-recoverd state for over 1/4 of a century. Don't do this to yourself. Eroth may have chosen to, but you don't have to - neither for that matter does she. there is more to life than this c*** illness!! You only get one shot at life. Don't waste it.
To be perfectly honest: I don't give a flying f*%k who I piss off here anymore.
People ask the most ridiculous questions and seek absolutely insane advice, i.e., teenagers at perfectly healthy weights posting idiotic questions on the weight loss board.
If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it.
Whether or not Hedgren is an expert (and I apologize for be ignorant to her credentials): this is not a site designed for medical advice. It's fine to ask questions and get opinions, but for real advice? Go to a doctor.
What she promotes should not be taken as a blanket statement that applies to absolutely everyone. Everybody is an individual with different needs which should be determined by their own personal physicians and dieticians.
Sarahdenmark: if you're dietician made up a meal plan that equates to 1700 calories, follow it! There is no need to check it out here - any questions, concerns, etc. should be checked out with him/her.
Eroth I know you are having a hard time right now but do you really think it is fair to drag others down with you? It is quite rude to hijack another post and rant and trigger the OP. Would you walk into a room with a perfectly calm rational discussion going on start angrily ranting and carrying on? If you want to slowly die that is your choice but don't drag others down.
Sarah yes go with your gut. Is your body happy? Answer that question honestly. Do you have a regular period yet or have you still not got it back? Some people don't lose their periods but if you do that is a pretty good sign that your body is not healthy. It may not be a requirement to diagnose anorexia anymore but that is only because not everyone loses it when underweight. That doesn't mean losing your period is not a sign of ill health. Is is possible your dietitian put you on 1700 because she knew it was a number you would tolerate and that you would resist a higher meal plan? Everyone is different yes but you have admitted yourself that you are still trapped between recovered and still sick and afraid to step completely over into healthy. Only you can decided what is best. Good luck.
Original Post by puddykat:
Eroth I know you are having a hard time right now but do you really think it is fair to drag others down with you? It is quite rude to hijack another post and rant and trigger the OP. Would you walk into a room with a perfectly calm rational discussion going on start angrily ranting and carrying on? If you want to slowly die that is your choice but don't drag others down.
Sarah yes go with your gut. Is your body happy? Answer that question honestly. Do you have a regular period yet or have you still not got it back? Some people don't lose their periods but if you do that is a pretty good sign that your body is not healthy. It may not be a requirement to diagnose anorexia anymore but that is only because not everyone loses it when underweight. That doesn't mean losing your period is not a sign of ill health. Is is possible your dietitian put you on 1700 because she knew it was a number you would tolerate and that you would resist a higher meal plan? Everyone is different yes but you have admitted yourself that you are still trapped between recovered and still sick and afraid to step completely over into healthy. Only you can decided what is best. Good luck.
Thank you for your reply, Puddykat.
I would say that my body is happier now, with a bmi of ruffly 18,5, compared to 1-2 weeks ago. I am not starving or feeling hungry often, because I make sure to get the calories in. But I am confused by all the changes that happens all of a sudden.. And this is quite uncomfortable. I've been at this "stage" before, as I relapsed some times, so I know what to expect when I kind of start over again. Each time I started upping my cals ang getting back to recovery I feel bloating, constipation and hoarding of fat around my stumach. And its very triggering! This time I really try to stick to it. Otherwise the cycle repeats itself again and again. At first, my doc says that a goal of 44-45 kgs (on 155 cm frame) would be suitable for me. And I'm kinda there right now.. So I feel really anxcious and even a bit "guilty" for passing that limit.. Like, he's sort of saying that anything above 45 is not flattering to me.
You're very right about the 1700 cals..! this is a kind of a compromis made by my therapist, in order to make recovery easier for me. She is doing everything to make me feel comfortable, and she's being very flexible and understanding when it comes to weight and cals. I remember in the beginning, long time ago, she said that I needed at least 2000 cals to function.. And I think this is the goal they want me to reach. She also told me that a bmi of 20 is where my body functions optimatically. But she would accept a minimum bmi of 18,5. Sometimes I think she's being too polite and too nice. Coz I take her words very seriously, and tend to misunderstand them. But I also understand it from her point of view, that she doesnt want to scare me away by requring something I cannot do.
Anyway, my ED-mind wants to eat less than 2000 cals, max 1600 cals, but I cant get myself to do it.. Its like, I'm more committed to recovery now, and more in touch with my heart. And my heart (and body) wants so much to become healthy again.
How are you doing, Puddykat? How's it going with recovery? are you coping? <3
I know exactly what you mean my dietitian is careful but firm which I find helpful. I'm doing ok gaining more steadily now. I'm still struggling with the 2000 calorie thing some days too but feeling better as I go along. My mom has been a constant source of support and coming on here and supporting others really helps too. I have to live up to my own advice after all! Keep strong!
