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If you do not get to REM is it really sleep?


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If you sleep very restlessly, and do not get to REM can you count that as sleep?  Is it really doing your body and good at all?  And on the reverse if you wake often(say once an hour), but go into REM when you fall back to sleep does that do your body any good.  Often I see every hour of the night, but dream everytime I go back to sleep, and feel exhausted when I get up in the morning.

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#1  
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I would love to know the answer as well. I do the same. I sleep a lot but wake competely tired every day. I wake up every few hours and then go right back into another dream. i have tried for years to "fix" the problem but I have not been successful.

Yeppp I do this too...any sleep docs out there?

I'm not sure what to tell you about how to maintain sleep, but I do know that REM is VITAL to keeping you healthy.  I took a psych class last year and when we studied sleep, we looked at some studies about its necessity.  Every study said that when the body is deprived of sleep and is then given the opportunity to sleep, it tries to get as much REM as possible, so that's probably why you hit REM as soon as your head hits the pillow again. 

As for dms4043's question, if you don't hit REM, I wouldn't call it sleep.  The body seriously needs it.  If you keep having difficulties sleeping, you might want to contact a doctor about what you can do to maintain sleep (e.g., the REM cycle) the whole night.  I can't stress enough how important it is for the body!  Scientists are still unsure exactly why we need it.  People have thought that it is for reparation after a long day of working the body, but scientists haven't found that to be the case.  The thing they do know after keeping test subjects awake for hours on end is that it can make people go crazy or have psychological problems.  I've even heard of people dying because of lack of sleep!  So there you have it...  Sleep is important!

I'm not a sleep doctor, but I do know that some sleep is better than no sleep. Obviously getting a long sleep over a 5-7 hours would be better.

When I was working shifts my sleep pattern was all over the place, but most of the time when I got a lot of sleep I felt more tired in the morning, than when I didn't get much sleep.

Original Post by dms4043:

If you sleep very restlessly, and do not get to REM can you count that as sleep?  Is it really doing your body and good at all?  And on the reverse if you wake often(say once an hour), but go into REM when you fall back to sleep does that do your body any good.  Often I see every hour of the night, but dream everytime I go back to sleep, and feel exhausted when I get up in the morning.

Are you sure you aren't achieving REM sleep? If you aren't, then you aren't really sleeping at all.

Do you think you aren't because you can't remember dreaming most of the time? Remembering your dreams is not a given. I almost never remember my dreams—I'd say I remember one about once a month, and that is almost always when I have been awakened and fall back to sleep—but I know I dream all the same. I even wake exhausted much of the time these days, but I know that isn't because I am not dreaming. It's because I haven't slept enough. There just isn't enough time in the day for me to get everything done and still sleep like I should.

Maybe you, too, just aren't sleeping enough, or are having trouble sleeping for other reasons, such as stress, depression, etc.

Not sure, but I know that even the hypnagogic state provides the body and mind with rest.  It's kinda fun to experience, too.

Original Post by petite_powerhouse:

Original Post by dms4043:

If you sleep very restlessly, and do not get to REM can you count that as sleep?  Is it really doing your body and good at all?  And on the reverse if you wake often(say once an hour), but go into REM when you fall back to sleep does that do your body any good.  Often I see every hour of the night, but dream everytime I go back to sleep, and feel exhausted when I get up in the morning.

Are you sure you aren't achieving REM sleep? If you aren't, then you aren't really sleeping at all.

Do you think you aren't because you can't remember dreaming most of the time? Remembering your dreams is not a given. I almost never remember my dreams—I'd say I remember one about once a month, and that is almost always when I have been awakened and fall back to sleep—but I know I dream all the same. I even wake exhausted much of the time these days, but I know that isn't because I am not dreaming. It's because I haven't slept enough. There just isn't enough time in the day for me to get everything done and still sleep like I should.

Maybe you, too, just aren't sleeping enough, or are having trouble sleeping for other reasons, such as stress, depression, etc.

 There are nights when I am very restless and do not dream.  The other nights I wake up often but also dream often.  Sometimes the dreams even continue when I go back to sleep.  I remember most of what I dream when I first wake up.  Have always dreampt and have always remembered them.  Some very weird stuff and sometimes scarry when similar things happen in real life. 

But like I said when I have a night full of dreams I am exhausted in the morning!  Do not feel like I slept.

entering  REM sleep is absolutely necessary for rest. Studies show that subjects who were prevented from going into REM, after 3 nights "sleep" show signs of sleep deprivation and exhaustion. in order for the brain to rest and adequate body shut down to occur  u HAVE to dream.... its kinda cool isnt it.

this restless sleep stuff also affect calorie needs

I doesn't sound much like sleep to me either, but as for reasons, have you ever been checked for sleep apneia?  Waking up at night, not sleeping well, and feeling tired when you wake up can all be signs of it.  Do you know if you snore?

If you haven't got it checked, I would since it's a very dangerous condition.  A doctor might also be able to tell you why you're not sleeping if it isn't apneia.

Original Post by vultar:

I doesn't sound much like sleep to me either, but as for reasons, have you ever been checked for sleep apneia?  Waking up at night, not sleeping well, and feeling tired when you wake up can all be signs of it.  Do you know if you snore?

If you haven't got it checked, I would since it's a very dangerous condition.  A doctor might also be able to tell you why you're not sleeping if it isn't apneia.

 I only snore when I have a cold or allergies are acting up.  I take allergie medicine most days to keep in check. 

A lot of stress in my life.

Loosing weight and being healthy are my first steps to deal with the stress.

I sometimes wonder if I have sleep apnea. I wake up unable to breathe every now and then. I sit bolt upright in bed and gasp for breath. But I always wonder if that's a disorder or a) the result of some nightmare I don't remember or b) stress, which could also have induced a).

It doesn't happen too often, either, and I have so many odd sleep issues that I'm used to it. I even have terrifying waking nightmares and accompanying temporary paralysis when I'm really stressed. I've dealt with that since I was a child.

What you are dealing with also really does sound like a stress-induced issue.

#12  
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Yea, REM sleep is definitely important.

If you only had a few nights of "restless" sleep, your body will go through more REM the next time, to catch up on that specific sleep stage.

As far as remembering dreams go, I'm pretty sure you don't remember most of them. If you get a proper amount of sleep, I believe you have about 4-5 dreams, and most people don't remember the 5 dreams they had.

I only read the OP so sorry if I'm repeating everyone.

#13  
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I have been doing a lot of research on sleep. It is possible that you have sleep apnea and this is really serious. You should talk to a Dr who specializes in sleep medicine about  this. Sleep Apnea is where you stop breathing for periods during the night and wake yourself up - therefore you look at the clock a lot, you dont ever reach REM sleep and you are exhausted the next day - it is very serious and can lead to other health issues. I encourage you to look into this, it's totally treatable and you could be feeling better in no time.

 

Good luck,

Erin

Original Post by clarkac4:

I'm not sure what to tell you about how to maintain sleep, but I do know that REM is VITAL to keeping you healthy. I took a psych class last year and when we studied sleep, we looked at some studies about its necessity. Every study said that when the body is deprived of sleep and is then given the opportunity to sleep, it tries to get as much REM as possible, so that's probably why you hit REM as soon as your head hits the pillow again.

As for dms4043's question, if you don't hit REM, I wouldn't call it sleep. The body seriously needs it. If you keep having difficulties sleeping, you might want to contact a doctor about what you can do to maintain sleep (e.g., the REM cycle) the whole night. I can't stress enough how important it is for the body! Scientists are still unsure exactly why we need it. People have thought that it is for reparation after a long day of working the body, but scientists haven't found that to be the case. The thing they do know after keeping test subjects awake for hours on end is that it can make people go crazy or have psychological problems. I've even heard of people dying because of lack of sleep! So there you have it... Sleep is important!

I've heard theories on how during REM, we almost have a virtual battle ground that prepares us for possible events that may happen.  I think that also has to do with why people who have been sleep deprived have impaired judgement and slower reaction times.

Also, most people don't remember most of their dreams.  The only time you remember your dreams is when you are interrupted and awoken during REM (the only time you actually dream).

I think I've read that the entire sleep cycle lasts about an hour; it consists for four stages (REM being the longest).  If I recall correctly, REM typically lasts twenty minutes and throughout the night, you repeat the four stages over and over again.  I could be wrong though >_<.

If I were you, I'd go see my doctor and possibly have him/her refer me to a sleep specialist.

REM is one of the 4 stages of sleep. N1, N2, N3 and REM. The deepest of all these is N3, also known as DELTA sleep. Each of the stages have characteristics that define what they are. N1 is the stage that you go into first, it is the lightest stage that we have al night. It is a low frequency background with 50% or less of the page is ALPHA ( wake). N2 has sleep spindles and waves known as K complexes.  N3, big slow waves. REM tends to have the most identifying markers. Rapid Eye Movement happens to be only one of the three things that we look for to call the page REM.

In people that have no sleep issues, we dream approximately 90-120 minutes after we reach stage one (N1) sleep. In children that time frame is reduced to 60-90 minutes. REM also occurs roughly 90-120 minutes throughout the night. We normally dream 4-5 times a night, with each REM period lasting longer, until awakening.

Those weird little REM like periods that occur when we doze off and wake up feeling like we have dreamed...those are hypnogogic hallucinations.

Hope that helped.

~cheers!

I sleep the same way but it is because I have a baby that wakes m eup all through the night... but I also have dreams right when I go back to sleep and sometimes they are continuing dreams. But I don't really feel like  I am in a deep sleep while dreaming kinda like half asleep half awake! It sucks!

What does snoring have to do with anything?

I wake up about 5 times a night.  I may sleep at the most one and half hours at a time.  I have taken every sleeping pill know to maqn and still wake up about every hour and half.

When it first started 6 years ago I attributed it to PTSD but......here it is six years later and I still do it.  I never had this problem before.

Original Post by petite_powerhouse:

I sometimes wonder if I have sleep apnea. I wake up unable to breathe every now and then. I sit bolt upright in bed and gasp for breath. But I always wonder if that's a disorder or a) the result of some nightmare I don't remember or b) stress, which could also have induced a).

It doesn't happen too often, either, and I have so many odd sleep issues that I'm used to it. I even have terrifying waking nightmares and accompanying temporary paralysis when I'm really stressed. I've dealt with that since I was a child.

What you are dealing with also really does sound like a stress-induced issue.

I took a college psychology class last semester and we learned about sleep apnea which someone on this thread already mentioned. With sleep apnea carbon dioxide builds up in your blood causing you to wake up momentarily and gasp for air (but typically you don't remember this). People can wake up as many as 300 times in one night and the main indication is not feeling rested. Sleep apnea is most common in men over 50 but being overweight also makes you more susceptible. If you sleep on your back try sleeping on your side, that is supposed to stop it for some people.

Good luck and sweet dreams =)

Snoring is pertinent because many people with sleep apnea snore.  Sleep apnea can result from your throat basically sagging and closing shut, preventing you from inhaling.  If your windpipe is obstructed higher up, it can express itself in the form of snoring, but really you're not getting enough oxygen.

(I suspect I have a non-snoring form of sleep-apnea, so I've been doing a little research.)

How do you know you're not entering REM sleep? If you are dreaming, then you are in REM sleep! (REM is when we dream; don't know if someone has already said all this -- I was too lazy to read the whole thread).

For those of you who think they may have sleep apnea, do you wake up with a very dry mouth in the morning? That is one sign.

Also, there are several factors that could suppress your REM sleep and make you feel less rested in the morning, such as antidepressants, for example.

If you are worried you should go for a sleep study.  They will do an EEG (measures brain activity) and measure breathing, hr, and muscle movement. That'll help find out what the problem is.

By the way, there are 4 stages of sleep ( = non-REM) plus REM sleep afterwards :)

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