abortion. agree, disgree?

what are all your views?

i personally believe a person should only have an abortion in the case that the mother may die due to complications.

i just dont understand how people say it's not baby. then WHAT is it?

i believe if you were old enough to have sex, then your old enought to deal with the consequences, either good or bad

Original Post by michellerae311:

hey, loislain, who cares? If the kid doesn't know their dad, is that going to stop him/her from being a good person? I know several people who don't know their parents but are still happy and successful anyhow. And fyi if i was raped, i would keep my baby because i believe that there is a purpose fro everything that happens, and i feel guilty forever for killing my baby. Oh, and pgeorgian, a fetus is not just another part of the body. It's a baby, a seperate human from you, and i don't think anyone has the right to decide the fate of someone else. I still can't understand why there can't be an choice of adoption here. It's so much more humane.

a) Spoken like someone who has never been raped.

b) Until it can live outside of me on its own, it is mine to do with as I will.

c) There are too many people in the world as is.

d) From what I understand, all of you "old enough to have sex, old enough to deal with the consequences" people believe that if someone gets a venereal disease they shouldn't get medication for it, because, after all, that is one of the consequences of sex. I am also presuming that you think that fertility treatment is as bad as abortion.

e) My apologies to the sensible people like pgeorgian and santonacci - I shouldn't respond to this thread. Unfortunately I get so angry with someone trying to dictate to me what is "right" and what is "wrong" that I become flippant, which makes your life more difficult, as it gives people an opportunity to ignore your very valid and relevant points.

Edit to add: Sorry to PLH too, I agree this thread should be murdered in its sleep so my apologies to you too, for bumping it up again. 

GAH!  michellerae, a fetus is NOT a separate human being.  if it were separate, it would be SEPARATE.  separate is precisely what it is NOT.

there's a purpose for everything?  so if you get pneumonia, will you take antibiotics or will you decide that there's a purpose, and that the purpose is that you will allow the fluid to build up in your lungs until you drown?  if your home is going to be flooded, will you fill sandbags and try to save it?  will you try to pump the water out of your basement?  or will you walk away and allow your home to be destroyed, because there must be a purpose?  do you exercise free will at all or do you just bob along like a cork on the tide?

so, no one has the right to decide the fate of someone else?  finally we agree!  no one has the right to decide whether or not someone else becomes a mother.  excellent!

there is nothing humane about trying to dictate what women do with their bodies.

[sorry, peacelove and p0nda.  couldn't let it go.]

I wasn't going to respond but I know a woman going through a painful divorce- she already has 2 children- she found out she was pregnant right after her husband told her that he was having an affair and wanted a divorce.... she didn't not keep the baby in her womb- I find it sad but also I can understand and support her decision.  I think ending a pregnancy is a personal choice and no one should judge others for that decision.  I really hope that roe-vs wade is NEVER over turned.  Plus- no one thinks about the many unwanted children out in the world already there.  Sure- it's easy to adopt a baby out but why bring it into the world in the first place? Why not give another homeless child a chance at adoption? Before they grow up and out of the system without being adopted?  We all just have to realize- there are some people out there who do not want to be parents and that is fine- or aren't quite ready to be parents.  And there are already too many un wanted children in this world in foster care and other facilities. Why don't people concentrate on helping the children that are already here in the flesh? 

Original Post by peacelovehominy:

what are all your views?

i personally believe a person should only have an abortion in the case that the mother may die due to complications.

i just dont understand how people say it's not baby. then WHAT is it?

i believe if you were old enough to have sex, then your old enought to deal with the consequences, either good or bad

OK... I know a woman whose doctor believed exactly this... BUT... the doctor isn't God either, and had no idea just HOW SERIOUS the woman's situation was..  Well there were complications, and she died.  The result was 10 other children deprived of a mother AND father (because he couldn't manage 10 children alone) and they all were sent to foster care... several of them abused over and over.

Many years later, the result was out of the 10 children, 9 never succeeded in a permanent marriage or relationship.  I guess, you need to know a loving home in order to build one.  Certainly, this speaks to "what good is saving the body if the soul is damaged?"

just to further stir up controversy, i'm going to throw this out there: adoption is a race issue.  there are many many babies out there waiting for families.  the majority of them aren't white.  orphanages in africa and asia are overflowing.  in canada, most of the kids in permanent foster care awaiting adoption are aboriginal; i suspect that the situation is similar in the US.  many of the people who want to adopt won't consider a child of a different colour.  so while aboriginal, black, and asian babies grow up without families and age-out of the systems that care for them, white people sit on wait lists for years because they want a baby that matches.

i believe that a big part of the christian right's anti-abortion movement is about bringing more white babies into the world.

Does that then mean that people of other races are less likely to adopt than white people?
In which case should there not be more emphasis on encouraging other races to consider adoption?

i don't think it's that simple, lifeizsweet.  i mean, look at china, with it's incentives to have only one child.  orphanages are full of abandonned baby girls because boys are so highly valued.  most families would rather keep their daughters, but given the penalties involved in having more than one, they make impossible choices. 

in many parts of africa, the adult population has been decimated by AIDS.  there just aren't enough healthy people left to care for the orphans. 

there are more babies of colour simply because there are more people of colour on the planet.  but that doesn't mean we need more white babies.

"i believe that a big part of the christian right's anti-abortion movement is about bringing more white babies into the world."

I wasn't going to post again (and I will not afterwards), but this statement is absurd.  That Kool-Aid you?re drinking must be making you high. 

absurdity and truth are not mutually exclusive.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

i believe that a big part of the christian right's anti-abortion movement is about bringing more white babies into the world.

Even if you erroneously assume that the "christian right anti-abortion movement" is comprised entirely of white people, the fact is that they oppose anybody getting an abortion, regardless of color.

Although I did see/hear John Gibson exhort, very seriously  "Okay, America, you need to have more babies!" - but it was in the context of counteracting illegal immigration.

i don't assume that the christian right anti-abortion movement is exclusively white.  but it's political representation is almost exclusively so.

anyway, i don't think this is an overt piece of the rationale.  i think it's a subtext of the adoption piece of the argument against abortion.

Original Post by santonacci:

Original Post by pgeorgian:

i believe that a big part of the christian right's anti-abortion movement is about bringing more white babies into the world.

Even if you erroneously assume that the "christian right anti-abortion movement" is comprised entirely of white people, the fact is that they oppose anybody getting an abortion, regardless of color.

Although I did see/hear John Gibson exhort, very seriously "Okay, America, you need to have more babies!" - but it was in the context of counteracting illegal immigration.

 I have seen and heard several conservative white talk shows that lambast their conservative christian members for not being more fruitful. Yes, they definitely want more white babies. They constantly harp on how the US will not be predominately white in 30-50 years if the white population continues to grow so slowly while those of color increase more rapidly.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

  most families would rather keep their daughters, but given the penalties involved in having more than one, they make impossible choices. 

uhh no. they dont like having girls "having a daughter is like watering another man's tree." -is what they say over there.

where'd ya pick up that pearl of wisdom?

it really explains the complexity of an entire culture.

serious question? or being sarcastic?

cant really see your expression, lol.

i'll take it as the serious question, i got it from my soc class. we had read a few stories about china in our gender &sex chapters.

oh &there was this interesting poem about how they tell parents to treat their daughters vs. son

it was something like...

 

wrap your son in the finest of cloths

let your daughter wear the rags

let your son sleep in the large bed

let your daughter sleep on the floor

give your son jade to play with

give your daughter rocks to play with.

 

 

rough, huh?

 

I haven't had the chance to go through all of these posts, but I fully believe that woman should always have a choice. For the people saying that they would never have an abortion, have you been in that situation? Everybody is different, everyone will react differently to the situation, of course.

The only reason I want to comment here is that a very good friend of mine recently got pregnant while taking birth control, she has health problems, was and is recovering from cancer/going in for check ups for it coming back (It already has before), and she got an abortion. She might have been able to deliver the child, though her risk of miscarriage was high. It eventually boiled down to the fact that even if she had sucessfully carried the baby at great risk, she had no one to help her. She was by herself. Her family would have stopped all contact, she is trying to finish school, she wasn't dating this boy anymore, she was in a new city, she has no money, ect ect ect--she would have had to try and find a shelter as she wouldn't have been allowed in the dorms, even. Previously she had said that even though she was pro-choice, abortion wasn't something she could ever do.

I'm not going to discuss that any further other than that, I know I can't make anyone suddenly become pro-choice over the internet, but I mention this only to illustrate that when you are actually IN a situation your mind might change. It's easy to make morality calls when you haven't stood in someone else's shoes.

Also, while I'm sure some of you have adopted children, how many of you? How many anti-abortionists do anything to help children that we already have? As long as the child gets into the world then who cares? We cut funding for education, we offer abstinence only education in most areas but we keep our media is super over-sexualized and over-violenced, we have pharmecists who won't sell birth control but hand out viagra packets like candy, but we have very few people that will step up and actually care for these children. There are a lot of steps that need to be taken to fix this issue, and no one will ever be completely satisfied, but I don't think taking away a woman's choice is the answer.

There are something close to 90,000 pregnancy and abortion related deaths in a year around the world. A good chunk of those could be prevented if abortion could be offered safely and legally. It is odd that so much death can be caused in the pursuit of life.

Edit:  I went back and read a good deal, and all of my points have been brought up already--and often better-stated!  Oh well!