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Animal Murder


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Dramatic title, huh?  Happy Friday!

So last night, I was at a friends house and they were watching the "reality" show about the guys in Louisiana who hunt alligators.

I found the whole thing to be terribly sad.  I don't think I understand.  I know that people do eat alligator and use their skins for things...but the number of gators that they were wrestling, shooting and hauling into their boats seemed so excessive.  It really did strike me as mass murder.

And while it can be difficult to get an alligator (what with the wrestling and all) it also seemed way too easy.  It was like shooting fish in a barrel.

I have this creepy feeling that one day, generations from now, we're going to be looking back at all this slaughter and wishing we had made different efforts to control or manage the alligator population.  I mean, isn't this how quite a few species have become completely extinct?

I know that people hunt.  (I mean, I'm in Tennessee.)  But you never seen rednecks cruising down the road with 15 deer strapped to their trucks.  The bottoms of those guys boats were covered in alligators.

Let's fight. Wink

89 Replies (last)
Original Post by lostpumpkins:

I'm going to read around, but I am very certain that there are species who are now extinct that were once overpopulating.  Meaning, we took them from too many...to completely gone.

Not sure we can be trusted.

The American alligator is actually more of a success story. It was listed as an endangered species in the 60's, but recovered and Fish & Wildlife delisted it completely in 1987. There aren't a lot of species that have been removed from the list (21, I think? but I think only two-thirds of those occur in the US in the wild).

It is currently protected under the ESA because of similarity of appearance with crocodiles, which remain on the endangered list. However, allowing controlled hunting of gators helps keep the population levels down. The IUCN lists the species as "least concern".

I can see making the argument from an animal cruelty perspective (although I'm not one to make it). But not using population level or extinction risk.

Sorry, but I think it's pretty presumptuous to decide, based on any factors, that we know what another animal feels like, or if they feel at all.  We could never actually know that.  That's a lame excuse for barbaric behavior.  "Oh, they probably don't get scared, they don't feel it."

Original Post by amethystgirl:

Original Post by lostpumpkins:

I'm going to read around, but I am very certain that there are species who are now extinct that were once overpopulating.  Meaning, we took them from too many...to completely gone.

Not sure we can be trusted.

The American alligator is actually more of a success story. It was listed as an endangered species in the 60's, but recovered and Fish & Wildlife delisted it completely in 1987. There aren't a lot of species that have been removed from the list (21, I think? but I think only two-thirds of those occur in the US in the wild).

It is currently protected under the ESA because of similarity of appearance with crocodiles, which remain on the endangered list. However, allowing controlled hunting of gators helps keep the population levels down. The IUCN lists the species as "least concern".

I can see making the argument from an animal cruelty perspective (although I'm not one to make it). But not using population level or extinction risk.

So, once it's been removed it can't get back on the list?

Huh.

Original Post by cptbunny:

And yet we have to put down the snakes. Why not do that to the humans? "

Other than it being a punishment totally out of proportion to the offense,  killing the douchnozzle humans doesn't solve the snake overpopulation problem.

Of course it could go back on the list. But it is currently in no danger of requiring that level of protection. Not even close.

Original Post by kotov_syndrome:

Original Post by cptbunny:

Original Post by kathygator:

We've got a serious python problem right now in the Everglades. People kept them for pets, then turned them loose, when they got tired of them. Now we've got a serious problem threatening the indigent wild life.

As I said in an earlier post, there really isn't much difference between a gator and a crab. I think a gator has the grain the size of a walnut. Probably not a lot of room for familial longing.

And yet we have to put down the snakes. Why not do that to the humans? "Cause it's inhumane" but it's not inhumane to put down the snake who's existence is due to a jackass? :/

So because its brains are smaller means they aren't worthy? I'm not picking on you Kathy, I've just heard that argument before. Elephants have larger brains than we do, so by definition we are beneath them.

Whether they have familial longing isn't really the issue, they are still individuals with lives and they do and will experience fear.


speaking of brains, i got to study the brain of an orca (aka, bastard of the sea...hate those guys), and it was unreal. so much more developed than a human's brain that i can't imagine an orca without a monocle and a glass of bourbon, reading the new yorker.

it's also interesting to note that while orcas are family-oriented and nuturing parents, they also tend to kill just for the hell of it--and in horrifying ways. something to think about.

hmm...yep. we have to kill all the orcas before they kill us. who's with me?!

Sounds like Orca and Humans have a lot in common then! ;)

I love Orcas! They're beautiful!

In response to something KG said...while we can give ourselves some kudos for making it this far, we're not on the same type of playing field we were 100, 200, 500 years ago. We're too smart to get to play stupid about the consequences of our wildlife management policies.

AG, I'm not sure that I can buy into the success story. Were we as a species *really* that instrumental to the ongoing survival of the alligator? They've been around for a long, long, long time. And there wouldn't have been a blip on the map at all except for the intervention of the human species to begin with.

We just all have to share and get along.

Original Post by kathygator:

Worthy or unworthy has nothing to do with it, in my view, Bunny.

We're a hunter/gatherer species that learned to manage our environment to survive. It is, what it is.  While I understand the offense taken and the wish to 'control' humans in the same fashion - that's not a realistic goal. We took a species from the brink of extinction to effectively managing their population through culling. I call that a fairly good result. We did the same with wolf and bison populations too BTW.

Since I make no claims to be a vegan, and I do eat meat, I would feel like a hypocrite complaining about 'gator culling.

I eat meat. I'm not against eating meat or hunting for food.

I am against hunting for sport. I am against humans being jerkwads and encroaching on animal "property" and then having to cull them. I'm also against the selling of many animals as pets who are then let lose in the wild, where they will just reproduce and eventually have to be culled.

The majority of animals that we saved from extinction was due to us bringing them there.

Original Post by santonacci:

Original Post by cptbunny:

And yet we have to put down the snakes. Why not do that to the humans? "

Other than it being a punishiment totally out of proportion to the offense,  killing the douchnozzle humans doesn't solve the snake overpopulation problem.

Well, make it illegal to sell snakes. Then cull the humans who sell the snakes illegally! Perfect solution. Unfortunately now, those wild snakes have to be culled. But if we keep culling the bad humans, it should even itself out eventually.

(I know this is outrageous and unrealistic and I swear I am not anti-human, but when defending animals, I put all animals in the same playing field. Humans are really just another animal.)

Original Post by lostpumpkins:

Sorry, but I think it's pretty presumptuous to decide, based on any factors, that we know what another animal feels like, or if they feel at all.  We could never actually know that.  That's a lame excuse for barbaric behavior.  "Oh, they probably don't get scared, they don't feel it."

Only seems barbaric because you don't hunt 'gator. No more barbaric than the way crab are killed, or cattle are slaughtered, IMO.

Am assuming you're a vegan?

Original Post by lbh:

AG, I'm not sure that I can buy into the success story. Were we as a species *really* that instrumental to the ongoing survival of the alligator? They've been around for a long, long, long time. And there wouldn't have been a blip on the map at all except for the intervention of the human species to begin with.

They are a success story in that they were at critically low levels and recovered. At least in part because of 20 years of protection that prevented them from being further decimated. That's not to say that the resiliency of the species did not play a role as well.

I'm not trying to either give the glory to humans or to whitewash what effect humans had on the population levels to start with. Only that if protections hadn't been put in place, they would have likely gone the way of the dodo, the Caribbean monk seal, and plenty others.

Original Post by cptbunny:

The majority of animals that we saved from extinction was due to us bringing them there.

Not arguing that, Bunny but sometimes part of the fix includes culling.

Not certain why anyone is getting their back up over this. Unless you're shaking your fist at 1960? It's, as Cajun said, actually a success story.

Although LP did want to fight, so perhaps that's the goal...

 

Original Post by kathygator:

Original Post by lostpumpkins:

Sorry, but I think it's pretty presumptuous to decide, based on any factors, that we know what another animal feels like, or if they feel at all.  We could never actually know that.  That's a lame excuse for barbaric behavior.  "Oh, they probably don't get scared, they don't feel it."

Only seems barbaric because you don't hunt 'gator. No more barbaric than the way crab are killed, or cattle are slaughtered, IMO.

Am assuming you're a vegan?

I know this was to LP. But I don't think it's barbaric to hunt/kill to eat. I think it's barbaric to kill for sport and on top of that, put it on TV.

I eat chicken, and I would think it completely barbaric to have a chicken hunting TV show. I don't think it's barbaric when a lion eats a deer. Lions don't usually go around mass killing deer for fun though and then putting its head on a nearby tree to display.

Original Post by cptbunny:

[snip]...I put all animals in the same playing field. Humans are really just another animal.

As much as I agree with you about animal cruelty, hunting, and the preservation of the environment, humans are not "just another animal."  I'm not saying "might makes right", but there are reasons why we're the dominant species on the planet, and it's not because we're just like any other life form.

Original Post by lbh:

In response to something KG said...while we can give ourselves some kudos for making it this far, we're not on the same type of playing field we were 100, 200, 500 years ago. We're too smart to get to play stupid about the consequences of our wildlife management policies.

AG, I'm not sure that I can buy into the success story. Were we as a species *really* that instrumental to the ongoing survival of the alligator? They've been around for a long, long, long time. And there wouldn't have been a blip on the map at all except for the intervention of the human species to begin with.

We just all have to share and get along.

Well...yeah.

No one is arguing that we didn't hunt them to near extinction in the first place. Again, what are we doing here? Shaking our fist at 1960? Or the hunters of 1860 that hunted the buffalo to near extinction?

Obviously, we effed it up in the first place, but we've learned over the last 150 years, ways to fix our mistakes and help animal populations..

not seeing the down side here, except someone thought to make a reality show, to entertain us all with gator hunting? I don't watch the show, myself. All you need to see is one episode, and you pretty much understand the process.

Original Post by santonacci:

Original Post by cptbunny:

[snip]...I put all animals in the same playing field. Humans are really just another animal.

As much as I agree with you about animal cruelty, hunting, and the preservation of the environment, humans are not "just another animal."  I'm not saying "might makes right", but there are reasons why we're the dominant species on the planet, and it's not because we're just like any other life form.

We are the apex predator in most cases. We are definitely the most advanced.

But put a human up against a gator, I bet the gator would win. What we have is the ability to create weapons (bow/arrow, guns etc). Without it, we are smooshy.

But when a bear/gator/whale/dolphin/dog etc. kills a human, that animal has to be put down. This is unfair. Yet, we don't put down the human for killing kittens and leaving their corpses in a dumpster nearby.

Original Post by kathygator:

Original Post by lbh:

In response to something KG said...while we can give ourselves some kudos for making it this far, we're not on the same type of playing field we were 100, 200, 500 years ago. We're too smart to get to play stupid about the consequences of our wildlife management policies.

AG, I'm not sure that I can buy into the success story. Were we as a species *really* that instrumental to the ongoing survival of the alligator? They've been around for a long, long, long time. And there wouldn't have been a blip on the map at all except for the intervention of the human species to begin with.

We just all have to share and get along.

Well...yeah.

No one is arguing that we didn't hunt them to near extinction in the first place. Again, what are we doing here? Shaking our fist at 1960? Or the hunters of 1860 that hunted the buffalo to near extinction?

Obviously, we effed it up in the first place, but we've learned over the last 150 years, ways to fix our mistakes and help animal populations..

not seeing the down side here, except someone thought to make a reality show, to entertain us all with gator hunting? I don't watch the show, myself. All you need to see is one episode, and you pretty much understand the process.

I'm shaking my fist at now, personally.

We are still making animals almost go nearly extinct and are working to prevent this from happening. Gorillas, birds, fish, large cats etc.

The animal that immediately springs to mind is pretty much any kind of tiger. Some of them under 10,000 in population. Due. To. Humans.

:(

With allot of game that is harvested on these TV shows is donated to local food banks , homeless shelters and soup kitchens.. Also most safari hunts in Africa there are stipulations put on by the officiating government or tribe that the animals taken must meet certain requirements and the meat must be giving to the local tribe's, towns and villages.

I hunt and fish regurly every thing that i take i either consume , or donate to the less fortionate.

I will also say i do not believe at all in high fenced hunting operations these are just absurd

Original Post by cptbunny:

I'm shaking my fist at now, personally.

We are still making animals almost go nearly extinct and are working to prevent this from happening. Gorillas, birds, fish, large cats etc.

The animal that immediately springs to mind is pretty much any kind of tiger. Some of them under 10,000 in population. Due. To. Humans.

:(

I think you're entirely justified to be angry about the world's efforts and I agree that we as a species have done and continue to do too much environmental damage around the world - I just don't think applying that anger to a successful wildlife management program in the US is necessarily comparing apples to apples, is all.

Original Post by cptbunny:

Original Post by lostpumpkins:

I'm going to read around, but I am very certain that there are species who are now extinct that were once overpopulating.  Meaning, we took them from too many...to completely gone.

Not sure we can be trusted.

Off the top of my head:

Tasmanian Tiger

Dodo bird

Javian (Sp) Tiger

 

A good example now would be the Giant Panda. We are trying to prevent it's extinction, but humans are taking their land/food source away and there are jackass douchenozzles poaching them.

You forgot these...

North American Buffalo

American Mustang

Spanish Mustang

Dama Gazelle

Asiatc Black Bear

Polar Bear

Red Wolf

Arabian Oryx, the largest wild population is currently living in Texas I believe, on a big game farm. every year only a handful of hunters are allowed in at a very high cost per kill. To regulate the farm's population. There are no truly wild herds left in the world. 

and many many others who have been over hunted. 

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