Dramatic title, huh? Happy Friday!
So last night, I was at a friends house and they were watching the "reality" show about the guys in Louisiana who hunt alligators.
I found the whole thing to be terribly sad. I don't think I understand. I know that people do eat alligator and use their skins for things...but the number of gators that they were wrestling, shooting and hauling into their boats seemed so excessive. It really did strike me as mass murder.
And while it can be difficult to get an alligator (what with the wrestling and all) it also seemed way too easy. It was like shooting fish in a barrel.
I have this creepy feeling that one day, generations from now, we're going to be looking back at all this slaughter and wishing we had made different efforts to control or manage the alligator population. I mean, isn't this how quite a few species have become completely extinct?
I know that people hunt. (I mean, I'm in Tennessee.) But you never seen rednecks cruising down the road with 15 deer strapped to their trucks. The bottoms of those guys boats were covered in alligators.
Let's fight. 
Original Post by cptbunny:
This is unfair. Yet, we don't put down the human for killing kittens and leaving their corpses in a dumpster nearby.
Is there a reason why we should put a human down for killing kittens? I have nothing against kittens, far from it - but a good portion of the time, we don't even put humans down for killing humans, and when we do, I wish we didn't.
Should someone be punished for that? Possibly, especially if those kittens belonged to someone else - but I don't equate the life of a kitten to the life of a human, even if I believed in "eye for an eye" justice.
Original Post by amethystgirl:
Original Post by lbh:AG, I'm not sure that I can buy into the success story. Were we as a species *really* that instrumental to the ongoing survival of the alligator? They've been around for a long, long, long time. And there wouldn't have been a blip on the map at all except for the intervention of the human species to begin with.
They are a success story in that they were at critically low levels and recovered. At least in part because of 20 years of protection that prevented them from being further decimated. That's not to say that the resiliency of the species did not play a role as well.
I'm not trying to either give the glory to humans or to whitewash what effect humans had on the population levels to start with. Only that if protections hadn't been put in place, they would have likely gone the way of the dodo, the Caribbean monk seal, and plenty others.
In my mind, it's a chicken vs. the egg type of scenario. Except, the humans are both the chicken and the egg. The cause and the effect.
So, lbh, what do you consider an example of a success story?
Has there been a time when a species was saved from brink of extinction that hadn't been placed there by human means?
ETA: I think a lot of my feelings are stemming from a recent visit to the zoo. Is that where all wildlife that isn't extinct is headed? How sad.
I think it's a success story when humans fix an error caused by other humans. It means we learned something.
I just wish there were less of these items to fix, and I really wish so many people didn't think it was unnecessary to try to save animals that we've brought to the point of extinction. That idiot up in Alaska doesn't care if all the polar bears are gone. She just keeps running her mouth about how it's not our fault or responsibility.
@lbh: Not that I'm aware of. Generally, if the factors contributing to endangerment or extinction are not man-made, it's a lot harder (if not impossible) to correct for those factors.* And that's assuming humans become aware of the problem before extinction occurs. Even when the factors are human, the removal of those factors (hunting pressure on right whale, for instance) does not necessarily mean the recovery of the species - at too low levels, stochasticity ends up playing a pretty serious role.
But I was thinking even broader than that - what is an example of anything (not necessarily animal related) that you would consider a success story.
*ETA: There's also the argument made by some that extinction in those cases is natural, and so to fight against it would be going against nature. Animals went extinct long before humans were on the scene.
ETA2: To further explain that argument: If we didn't cause the problem, are we responsible for fixing it? Should we even consider it a "problem"?
Original Post by amethystgirl:
@lbh: Not that I'm aware of. Generally, if the factors contributing to endangerment or extinction are not man-made, it's a lot harder (if not impossible) to correct for those factors.* And that's assuming humans become aware of the problem before extinction occurs. Even when the factors are human, the removal of those factors (hunting pressure on right whale, for instance) does not necessarily mean the recovery of the species - at too low levels, stochasticity ends up playing a pretty serious role.
But I was thinking even broader than that - what is an example of anything (not necessarily animal related) that you would consider a success story. I'm not sure I'm equipped to answer a broader question re: success...Isn't it a personal definition? I find it backwards for a populace to cause a problem and feel "successful" because they resolved the problem.
*ETA: There's also the argument made by some that extinction in those cases is natural, and so to fight against it would be going against nature. Animals went extinct long before humans were on the scene. In my opinion, that would be part of the balance of the grand scheme of things. The earth evolves, climates change, animals adapt and all of this has happened for eons prior to the human species.
ETA2: To further explain that argument: If we didn't cause the problem, are we responsible for fixing it? Should we even consider it a "problem"? But we *do* cause the problems (specifically with most current endangered animals I can think of. I'm no scientist though, so I'll readily admit. And then we are responsible for resolving the problem, but isn't that just the right thing to do?
KG, I don't see a downside to correcting the wrongs of the past and the now. I just don't see a huge effort to prevent these things from happening in the first place. I think it's part of human nature to push and push and push our boundaries until everything else is in it's own little square.
Original Post by kathygator:
Meh. I have no problem with the 'gator harvest. 'Gator tail is good eatin'. :)
Comments like this make me realize how sheltered I am.
People really eat alligators?! Eeeeek!
I'm super sensitive when it comes to animals...so I wouldn't even attempt to watch a show like that. I feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it.
Original Post by cptbunny:
Original Post by kathygator:
Original Post by lostpumpkins:
Sorry, but I think it's pretty presumptuous to decide, based on any factors, that we know what another animal feels like, or if they feel at all. We could never actually know that. That's a lame excuse for barbaric behavior. "Oh, they probably don't get scared, they don't feel it."
Only seems barbaric because you don't hunt 'gator. No more barbaric than the way crab are killed, or cattle are slaughtered, IMO.
Am assuming you're a vegan?
I know this was to LP. But I don't think it's barbaric to hunt/kill to eat. I think it's barbaric to kill for sport and on top of that, put it on TV.
I eat chicken, and I would think it completely barbaric to have a chicken hunting TV show. I don't think it's barbaric when a lion eats a deer. Lions don't usually go around mass killing deer for fun though and then putting its head on a nearby tree to display.
Exactly.
No, I am not vegan. Don't feel a need to be. There is a food chain in life. Creatures eat and are eaten, it's part of the circle of life.
As far as I know, we are the only creatures who hunt for fun and sport. Or for clothing. I don't consider those things the natural part of life. Also, it's worth pointing out that it's been proven that we do not have to have meat to live. So, it's a choice. Animals die for our choice, for our preference. There's no denying that. Also, we're the only creatures (to my knowledge) who kill more than we need.
And I don't know why you keep bringing up fish and crabs. I didn't make a comparison in my original post. (I'm cool with the way crabs are slaughtered, but take it easy on the alligators!")
I think alligators are beautiful, amazing creatures. I actually have a lot of admiration for the more predatory animals. Fascinating. It pains me to see them handled in that way and sought out. I mean, we complain about animals coming into "our" territories...yet we load up all of our weaponry and gear and go out into theirs with no other intent than to kill them.
Pictures bear standing lurking near a campground and saying to his more concerned friend, "Meh, I'm okay with eating children."
My hope was that you would give what your personal opinion on what you would consider a success story.
For instance, a kid from a broken home - works hard, excels at school, stays away from drugs, gets a scholarship to good colleges, pursues advanced degrees, and goes on to have a successful career that helps others. I would consider that a success story.
But it's only a success story because the kid came from a broken home. We don't consider it a success if the kid was born to rich, kind, perfect parents, even if the kid worked just as hard and accomplished just as much. I mean, it's great, but nobody writes a feel-good news article about the second kid.
Do we turn around and say that the kid from the broken home isn't a success story, because it was his family's (or society's or the species') fault that he started at a disadvantage?
So why is it not a success story when a group of humans work hard to promote and achieve the recovery of a species, that a completely different group of humans hurt?
My ETA2 was still in the scenario of "if we didn't cause the problem", which was part of my answer your question about if there were any species that were at the brink of extinction NOT due to humans.
Original Post by lbh:
In response to something KG said...while we can give ourselves some kudos for making it this far, we're not on the same type of playing field we were 100, 200, 500 years ago. We're too smart to get to play stupid about the consequences of our wildlife management policies.
AG, I'm not sure that I can buy into the success story. Were we as a species *really* that instrumental to the ongoing survival of the alligator? They've been around for a long, long, long time. And there wouldn't have been a blip on the map at all except for the intervention of the human species to begin with.
We just all have to share and get along.
Under the current situation yes. Human as a species is instrumental to the near destruction of the alligator. We have reversed our course. Currently the laws in Louisiana allows for harvesting of alligator eggs to be raised in farm for meat. By law, the farms have to released 15% of the hatchlings back into the wild by the time they are viable to survive by themselves. 15% is actually quite a bit higher than the normal survival rate so the number of alligators are increasing. Furthermore, releasing the young gators to different areas increasing the genes mix so their genes are more diverse. If things stay the way it is, as far as we can reasonably project, the alligators are safe.
As we populate the planet we will encroach the habitat of other animals, we can't say that we'll leave it to nature because we are changing nature just like other animals have changed nature in the past. Our knowledge is more so we should do more. Sure we'll make mistake like the one we did with nutrias but we need to learn from it and get better.
Doing nothing is not much different than saying OK let's leave the domestic dogs, cats, horses, cattles to nature. Surely some will survive but certainly a whole bunch of really cute kitties and dogs will perish.
Original Post by catwalker:
I think it's a success story when humans fix an error caused by other humans. It means we learned something.
I just wish there were less of these items to fix, and I really wish so many people didn't think it was unnecessary to try to save animals that we've brought to the point of extinction. That idiot up in Alaska doesn't care if all the polar bears are gone. She just keeps running her mouth about how it's not our fault or responsibility.
I love polar bears.
I remember, as a kid, reading animal books and getting hung up on the section with the extinct species. I always wished they were still around.
Another example of success stories, perhaps more relevant to Calorie Count...
We get posts on CC all the time asking for success stories: people who have lost weight, for instance.
Are those not success stories, because it was the person's "fault" that they ever needed to lose in the first place?
That's my point about what do you consider a success story. Just because the person (or in the case of this thread, the species) was responsible for causing the condition that requires recovery, I don't think that removes the recovery from being "a success story".
Original Post by lostpumpkins: I don't know why you keep bringing up fish and crabs.
I brought up crabbing to further the point I made about Deadliest Catch being the first reality series that deals with 'hunting' creatures for profit. Which, BTW, the gator hunters are doing. They aren't hunting for pleasure. They're selling the meat and the hides.
If you can't kill it, don't eat it!
So they stop killing gators, their numbers would get to such... what do you think would happen to them?
A large number will starve to death!
I abhor trophy hunting, but I have no problem with hunting for food and if you are going to kill the animal, use it all...so I have no problem with people wearing leather and some fur....
I don't agree with animals being killed just for their coats.
Many of the animals mentioned are actually increasing in numbers now.
I've killed animals, including chickens I for one much preferred going out and killing an animal right there and then as apposed to sending them to slaughter where chickens are hung by their feet, and their heads dipped into a basin where they are electrocuted.
I still eat chicken knowing this.
This is silly. It's an alligator.
My rules is, would it kill YOU and give a flying buttpunch? If no, kill it.
I have no qualms about stepping on spiders. Because if I were smaller...and a spider could kill me...it would, with no reservations whatsoever. Same thing with an alligator. If I cam across one...I figure it's me or him. Bye bye alligator.
I'm not saying we should go out of our way to kill things that are predators. But I'm a lot more concerned about people that would kill dolphins or seals than killing alligators or polar bears or bees or spiders.
It's just silly. We raise animals for food, then kill them, then have to feel guilty about it. If Tyson didn't raise millions of chickens...the chickens wouldn't exist in the first place. If cows weren't so tasty, there'd be like....7 of them left in the wild...they'd be in a zoo. We care about animals...but not fish. We care about animals...yet squish insects. We care about animals...yet have no trouble picking and killing a flower or eating lettuce. Their all alive...it's all eating living things. What, an alligator gets a pass because he's cute?
I mean, it aint my fault humans are able to invent tools and make fires. Maybe alligators should have thought about that rather than sitting around in a swamp all day...then they could defend themselves better.
Don't get me wrong, I AM hoping the hillbilly fisherman gets eaten whenever I see the commercials...becauese we have an overpopulation of hillbilly rednecks...but that's neither here nor there.
Original Post by amd_66:
I don't have a problem with things like this, as long as it's regulated and done with minimum stress to the animal.
Unfortunately in order for us to co-habit certain areas with the wildlife of those areas their numbers have to be kept in check...better this than mass poaching.
what about keeping OUR numbers in check? Soon there won't be enough viable land for humans or enough food to feed us all, if land keeps getting destroyed for the "betterment" of our species.
And aren't there alligator farms, anyway? I can see hunting them here or there if that's really the only thing they could possibly eat (but I doubt it is..)..but yeah..they just seem to be a show about" Look at meee! I can rassle a gator!"
I don't like that.
Original Post by lbh:
Has there been a time when a species was saved from brink of extinction that hadn't been placed there by human means?
ETA: I think a lot of my feelings are stemming from a recent visit to the zoo. Is that where all wildlife that isn't extinct is headed? How sad.
Sadder still is that many animals are safer in the zoo than they could ever be in the wild now. Poachers, pollution, encroachment...if we didn't put enough of them into zoos and try to breed them, they would be extinct.
Tigers are a good example of this. There are now more of them in zoos than in the wild. And also lots of them being kepts as pets in Florida, apparently.
Any of you live in Florida? It seems you can have any pet you want.
I'm in CA where gerbils, ferrets, monkeys are all illegal.
My state sucks.
Not that I think just anyone should be able to have a tiger or elephant or something, just that some states' laws about pets are stupid.
Why can't I have a gerbil?? Hamsters are legal, so wth, Bobby?
