The belated Penn State Thread
Okay, I was sort of shocked this topic hadn't been mentioned yet...maybe it was and I missed it...or maybe it's just so disgusting that people have stayed away from it (which was my strategy)...but after hearing the radio guy talk about it today, I just have to get this off my chest.
- What the guy (Sandusky) did (alledgedly), was nothing short of terrible.
- How it was handled, was very much not..."good" at all.
BUT...
- The grad student that reported it...REPORTED it...he reported a guy that held his future in his hands...who was a legend at the school...and while others may have done it "differently", there are some in that position that would have just walked on by and said "none of my business".
- I'm not a Penn State fan. I'm not a Paterno fan. I don't give a rat's anoose about either. But Paterno found out from the Grad student...AFTER the incident was over...about a co-worker that he knew for YEARS. But because it was a serious ALLEGATION...he reported it to his superior. MANY head coaches wouldn't have done that. They would have siad, "I'll handle it" and dealth with it "in secret" to protect "their guy".
- There WAS an investigation. It wasn't great...by any means. And I won't defend it nor the university's response...at all. But...the athletic director and institution DID do something...many institutions wouldn't...they'd just try to shut people up and pay people off.
- And the people that whined because they went to the game with protest signs saying that Penn State was bad...don't be "shocked" when the students boo you or harrass you...if you want "attention", be willing to accept that "attention", good and bad.
I mean, I get that Sandusky (if the allegetions are true) did some pretty sick things...and he WILL get dealt with one way or the other before, during, or after this thing goes to court. And I realize the grad student might have handled it differently or Paterno or the University. But all I've heard for the last week, is about how Paterno should be fired or the game cancelled or the university kicked out of the conference or any number of stupid garbage.
I don't even like college football that much, but this is disgusting to me. It's people judging other people without any semblance of an understanding of the situation. I mean, what if this was you...what if YOU were at work and some intern or co-op came to your home one night to report something he/she thought she saw in your workplace....that involved an employee you knew for YEARS and have had in your home with your family...who you could never imagine doing that thing being reported. Would you call the person and ask them...then have them give you some placating story which causes your mind to be at ease and that's the end of it? Or would you have the "courage" to call your boss and tell them what the co-op reported? Or would you go one step further and call the police on this friend of your's...just on the comments of a co-op/intern?
I understand the whole institution FAILED to protect those kids...and Penn State should be civally sued for that...and probably will be. And Sandusky will get what's coming (if the allegations are true). But firing Paterno and penalizing the players...and the students...just because of something some other guy did...I don't get that. And I have no love for college football players...all the ones I've ever known were arrogant egomaniacs who treated everyone in their path like dog turds...especially Penn State players who like Michigan State players, I believe were in recent years responsible for (as a team) giving beatdowns to students after arguements that break out at bars/parties. But still...unfair is unfair.
That's my take. Sorry victims...I don't mean to diminish what happened to you in ANY WAY...and I hope you find peace when this is all over...but I also think a guy like Paterno is being treated much, much worse than he should be...simply because he's a "big target".
Original Post by roxysparkles:
Original Post by santonacci:
Original Post by caloricat:
I'm not sure, I wasn't there...but whatever was going on I'm thinking was not as bad as we think when we hear "child rape".I suggest you read the document that Roxy linked to - it was quite explicit.
Even if it was just "naked man in shower playing around with naked 10 year old boy" - people are on sex offender lists for a lot less than that.
Thank you. I was just going to tell ccat to read the document I linked.
It explicitly tells what the grad assistant saw and heard.
Go on, cat, read it.
I did read it. There is an account of the grad student that he saw anal sex. Then there are multiple accounts from others that he told, that it was something less than that.
Again, I'm not sticking up for the guy. And reading that document doesn't make me fall over backwards...I mean, it's pretty well known what he's accused of doing. But NOWHERE in that document does it state that football players or students thought this was cool...or that people knew it was going on but chose to ignore it so the football season wasn't interrupted...or anything like that.
It sounds like...from reading it...that this was a completely BOTCHED investigation...and perhaps 2 people in the administration WERE trying to minimize it. But it wasn't Paterno (who wasn't mentioned criminally in the report). And it wasn't the grad student. And it wasn't 98% of the rest of that school, program, town, etc...
Original Post by roxysparkles:
The whole thing is absolutely despicable. Ccat, if you really think this is all "alleged", I urge you to read this. (and try to not puke while reading it)
I got to victim 4 and had to stop. I actually feel like throwing up now. Ugh.
Original Post by roxysparkles:
Original Post by caloricat:
If I had to "guess" at what happened, given the facts known...I'd say:
- The grad student saw a coach taking a shower and there was a boy in there, also showering.
- It bothered him because he thought that was inappropriate for children to shower with adults.
- He mentioned it to his father in a phone call, his father agreed that he might want to say something to Coach Paterno, and let JoePa make the call.
- Paterno heard a vague story about kids showering in his locker room...decided he'd report the matter to his boss, confront Sandusky about it personally as well...but 98% sure it was nothing given his long relationshiop with the man.
- The AD got notified, started a small investigation, thinking it was "probably nothing".
- The investigation didn't turn up much, Sandusky had all the "right answers", so the University pretty much said, "Hey...you can't do that stuff on campus for liability reasons...even if it was as innocent as you say, it's just too much liability."
From this^^, it's quite obvious that you don't know much about any of this.
Actually, that's pretty much exactly what the report of the two administrators was. Granted the Grand Jury believes them to not be "credible", but that is essentially what they said.
Original Post by trhawley:
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Joe P., as far as I know, did not witness and had no first hand knowledge of a crime.
i.e. Duke Lacrosse.
The whole nation screams in outcry and wants these kids kicked off the team and out of school and thrown in jail...cover story on Sportscenter for weeks...
...oops...turns out the prostitute reporting the alleged crimes isn't is as credible as initially thought.
Oh well...they are men, and athletes, and involved with a stripper...so they must be guilty of something.
Again, not saying Sandusky didn't do it...not condoning ANYTHING that guy did. He sounds like a guy that has some real "issues" and fits the classic child predator mold. But what he did has NOTHING to do with Penn State employees (accept for a couple dillwads), coaches, players, students, or alumni. And even though I don't care that much about Penn State football, I think it's tragic that Paterno's storied career ends like this, when the only thing he did wrong, was trust his superiors to do a better job than they did.
Original Post by caloricat:
Original Post by trhawley:
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Joe P., as far as I know, did not witness and had no first hand knowledge of a crime.
i.e. Duke Lacrosse.The whole nation screams in outcry and wants these kids kicked off the team and out of school and thrown in jail...cover story on Sportscenter for weeks...
...oops...turns out the prostitute reporting the alleged crimes isn't is as credible as initially thought.
Oh well...they are men, and athletes, and involved with a stripper...so they must be guilty of something.
Again, not saying Sandusky didn't do it...not condoning ANYTHING that guy did. He sounds like a guy that has some real "issues" and fits the classic child predator mold. But what he did has NOTHING to do with Penn State employees (accept for a couple dillwads), coaches, players, students, or alumni. And even though I don't care that much about Penn State football, I think it's tragic that Paterno's storied career ends like this, when the only thing he did wrong, was trust his superiors to do a better job than they did.
I haven't followed the case but from little I have read this is my take too. Someone reported that they had seen something and Paterno bumped it upstairs. How does he get fired for that?
Christ. I so wish I hadn't hit that link.
Original Post by trhawley:
Original Post by caloricat:
Original Post by trhawley:
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Joe P., as far as I know, did not witness and had no first hand knowledge of a crime.
i.e. Duke Lacrosse.The whole nation screams in outcry and wants these kids kicked off the team and out of school and thrown in jail...cover story on Sportscenter for weeks...
...oops...turns out the prostitute reporting the alleged crimes isn't is as credible as initially thought.
Oh well...they are men, and athletes, and involved with a stripper...so they must be guilty of something.
Again, not saying Sandusky didn't do it...not condoning ANYTHING that guy did. He sounds like a guy that has some real "issues" and fits the classic child predator mold. But what he did has NOTHING to do with Penn State employees (accept for a couple dillwads), coaches, players, students, or alumni. And even though I don't care that much about Penn State football, I think it's tragic that Paterno's storied career ends like this, when the only thing he did wrong, was trust his superiors to do a better job than they did.
I haven't followed the case but from little I have read this is my take too. Someone reported that they had seen something and Paterno bumped it upstairs. How does he get fired for that?
It does sound like scapegoatism to me too.
Yeah, sorry. I felt the same way when I first read it.
I felt physically sick.
Original Post by trhawley:
Someone reported that they had seen something and Paterno bumped it upstairs. How does he get fired for that?
I believe because the reported incident was so heinous, that people are saying he should have immediately contacted the police instead of keeping it to an inner administrative circle which enabled future incidents. IMO, they have a point.
Whether or not you, ccat, or the student body doesn't see that as a big deal is irrelevant to the public relations nightmare Penn State will go through because of this. I suspect there is a lot of pressure being brought by trustees, alumni, donors, and local politics.
It's easy to imagine that, especially in that culture, everyone would be hesitant to use language that would explicitly describe what happened. It would be hard for these men to say the words out loud. But eventually they all found out what was meant by 'inappropriate' behavior, and they still did nothing except ban the guy from bringing kids on campus.
It's revolting, and frankly I don't care whether Paterno is lambasted by the media or not. What happened wasn't just someone looking the other way over questionable recruiting practices, it was institutionalized criminal conspiracy to protect Sandusky from charges of the rape of a minor child and to protect the university from any culpability in same.
And what we "think" we would do in those situations versus what we would actually "do"...varies quite a bit.
When I saw that lady punching her kid in the parking lot (old video that was on the news), all I could think was, "If I was there, I'd stop that lady and beat the living **** out of her.
But how often have I been at a store or the mall and see some parent smack their kid or something like that? And do nothing?
I even witnessed a bar fight a month or so ago...and I was tempted to sort of step in on behalf of the smaller guy...but while it was going on...it was like I was frozen. Then after it's over you kind've go, "Whoa...why didn't I do anything?"
I think the grad student got freaked out...he didn't know what to do and got confused. For the classless parent to attack the guy in the news and mock him for "running to daddy"...when HE'S THE GUY that stuck up for your son (where were you mom...when a creepy pedo dude was taking your son on sleepovers??) in the first place?
And that story about the janitor...who also saw "something" and got freaked out, and told the other janitors and the supervisor and nearly had a heart attack over it. I mean, it's easy to armchair quaterback about, "Well, if I was that grad student or janitor...I'd go graba baseball bat and beat that dude over the head and I'd go right to the police and then to the FBI...and then I'd calmly blog about it and send it to multiple newspapers"...I mean, come on...
The tragedy is actually that nothing happened way in the beginning. Because the way criminals work is they "escalate". Sandusky started "small" by doing the "backrubs" and "wrestling" and stuff like that. For 95% of the victims, that's as far as it went. They made it clear, "Whoa! Dude...stop..." and he stopped. But once he "got away with more", it just seemed to encourage him to keep going back to that well.
Original Post by santonacci:
Original Post by trhawley:
Someone reported that they had seen something and Paterno bumped it upstairs. How does he get fired for that?I believe because the reported incident was so heinous, that people are saying he should have immediately contacted the police instead of keeping it to an inner administrative circle which enabled future incidents. IMO, they have a point.
Whether or not you, ccat, or the student body doesn't see that as a big deal is irrelevant to the public relations nightmare Penn State will go through because of this. I suspect there is a lot of pressure being brought by trustees, alumni, donors, and local politics.
So somebody tells you that they witnessed a heinous crime and you don't report the crime so you should be punished for this? I just don't see it. There has to be more to the story.
Edit: I think the firings are just a knee jerk.
Original Post by trhawley:
Original Post by santonacci:
Original Post by trhawley:
Someone reported that they had seen something and Paterno bumped it upstairs. How does he get fired for that?I believe because the reported incident was so heinous, that people are saying he should have immediately contacted the police instead of keeping it to an inner administrative circle which enabled future incidents. IMO, they have a point.
Whether or not you, ccat, or the student body doesn't see that as a big deal is irrelevant to the public relations nightmare Penn State will go through because of this. I suspect there is a lot of pressure being brought by trustees, alumni, donors, and local politics.
So somebody tells you that they witnessed a heinous crime and you don't report the crime so you should be punished for this? I just don't see it. There has to be more to the story.
Edit: I think the firings are just a knee jerk.
I think the firings are totally justified. I think they would be wrong not to fire them.
Tom, did you read the document I linked?
Roxy,
Is the document you linked the Grand Jury Report?
Just curious - I'm reading that at the NYT site - it's 23 pages long
Original Post by caloricat:
(where were you mom...when a creepy pedo dude was taking your son on sleepovers??) in the first place?
I understand that Sandusky was considered, at the time, to be a trustworthy figure that operated a well respected charity. If the parents didn't know about his actions at the time, I'm not sure how you can hold them personally responsible. It is widely reported that kids will deliberately hide and lie about sexual abuse incidents out of shame, or the powerful influence of the person who perpetrated it.
Do you also blame parents who dared to trust Scout Leaders and Priests?
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
Roxy,
Is the document you linked the Grand Jury Report?
Just curious - I'm reading that at the NYT site - it's 23 pages long
Yes, that's the one.
Original Post by trhawley:
So somebody tells you that they witnessed a heinous crime and you don't report the crime so you should be punished for this?
Yes - it's called misprision of felony, although it's specific about a "active concealment", which may be arguable in this case.
And I fully admitted that there's more to the story in regards to the firing - there's probably a lot of outside pressure being put on the university.
What I find particularily enraging about this is that a guy with paternal authority puts kids under pressure that are already vulnerable to stisfy supresed needs that he knows are wrong.
Maybe if he had just admited to himslef that he is gay and lived it he wouldn't have had to abuse boys who couldn't really fight back.
And I agree with what Ccat says abotu freezing while watching violence. I guess our brain gets mixed signals ina mometn like this and we simply freeze because we don't know what to do.
Over a decade ago I was on a shoot on a street and a little girl crept by. She was maybe five, wore dirty clothes and held onto a dirty teletubby. She had half open wounds where the neckline of her dress was. I didn't know what to do. Was that an injury or just a badly cared for skin condition? Was she terrified because she was victimized or was it just the many strangers with trailers and equipment in her otherwise quiet street.
I didn't know what to say or do. It was hectic, I had a job to do, I couldn't just leave my position. And who should I call? The police? And try to keep her put while they come?? Follow her home and try to find out who she is and call social services? Was there even a serious problem?
A few seconds later and she was gone and didn't show up again during the next days where we were there. To this day I feel bad about not having done something.
I don't recall saying I'd blog about it. But yeah, if I had a bat or ready access to one - or any blunt instrument in fact, I'd have hit him over the head with it, dragged that kid out of there and called the police. Just like I'd make a woman stop hitting her kid in front of me, or step in if I saw a man hitting a woman.
Two douchebags fighting in a bar, isn't quite the same thing, IMO, but I have been known to talk people down in a bar, before they came to blows.
