Would this bother/offend/hurt you?
I am going to describe a scenario to you and I want you to tell me honestly whether or not you would feel hurt or how you would view it. I will try to be brief (ha).
1) There are four characters in this story: Myself (Bethany), my brother (Josh), and Steve and Sarah, who are married to each other. In high school, Josh and Steve were best friends. Due to some poor choices on my brothers behalf and some serious tension and him eventually moving away, their friendship pretty much died. They each bad mouthed the other, Josh was resentful of his best friends marriage, they never spoke, etc, etc.
2) In the meantime, Sarah and I become friends. Then best friends. Our kids hang out together, we talk about everything, spend time around each others families. I threw her baby shower a few months ago and my son refers to her as Aunt Sarah. Texting daily, etc.
3) Josh moves back into our town. A few things to know about Josh...he has been unemployed for three years (mooching off of family members), has stolen from nearly every member of my family, has been violent towards us, and we has committed numerous crimes that we have slowly all become aware of. He and I have had terrible, terrifying fights. I have spoken to Sarah about my relationship with him.
4) Josh and Steve immediately start hanging out again. I feel uncomfortable because he and I are not speaking and I know that he gains confidence and pleasure from bad mouthing other people (me) and would enjoy ruining a friendship of mine. I also know that he will be with Steve all the time (because he has no other friends or ambitions) and I won't be able to be around if he is. I express my discomfort to Sarah and she brushes it off. The first night he is back in town, he physically threatens me and threatens to damage my new car. I tell her about this only because I am venting and upset.
5) The DAY after my huge fight with him and after I expressed my fears to Sarah, her post on facebook is this: "Listening to Josh and Steve cut up and catch up last night was SO much fun and such a trip down memory lane! It's SO good to have him back and the girls just love him! Hailey adores her Uncle Josh!"
I know this is long and might seem juvenile...but it hurt. It felt intentional. It felt careless on her part, at the least. I haven't spoken to her since and she has not attempted to contact me, either. We are still friends on facebook and I am torn...if I delete her and her husband, it will send a very clear message that I am done with the friendship and I don't know for sure that I want to be. I know I want her to understand that she hurt me...surely she could see how that would read to me?
Idk...you tell me
Kg...
She didn't respond till this morning and just said again that she didn't think him being here would make an difference or cause a problem. I resisted the urge to text her my original posts here (haha!) and just explained that it's been a weird transition for me, I was confused and hurt and while she might think it shouldn't make a difference, that one way or another, it's going to. Even if it's just that we wouldn't be able to hang out sometimes because he will be around. She didn't apologize and I have not referenced the facebook post.
I think we'll be okay, but my guard is still up a little.
Prudent and realistic. Good job.
I agree. You did an excellent job of protecting yourself and not being harsh. She's going to have to learn for herself how crazy your brother is and how many problems he can create.
This was much the same for me with my ex-husband. He is batshhiittcrazy and able to do the most insane hurtful crazy stuff. Yet he was so charming to other people and quite often people either thought I had a grudge or was exaggerating or was making things up. They just couldn't comprehend how such a charming, handsome man who was in such a good job could do the kinds of things I said he did.
You can't believe the number of people who apologized to me later after they witnessed/experienced his craziness. I often had to fight the urge to say I told you so. It was quite hard at times.
Intellectually I knew that it wasn't that people thought I was a liar, they just couldn't reconcile his facade with his actions until those actions were witnessed or effected them. And they didn't get the full brunt of his craziness.
If you and your friend continue to communicate, you should let her know that you won't make an issue out of your brother, but at the same time, that you can not be around if he is around, so you are bowing out gracefully at those times. A sincere and quiet warning for her to be careful around your brother is about as far as you can go.
I think she hasn't apologized as she can not see what she did to hurt you. I'm betting really can't see it at this time.
Original Post by moonikins:
I agree. You did an excellent job of protecting yourself and not being harsh. She's going to have to learn for herself how crazy your brother is and how many problems he can create.
This was much the same for me with my ex-husband. He is batshhiittcrazy and able to do the most insane hurtful crazy stuff. Yet he was so charming to other people and quite often people either thought I had a grudge or was exaggerating or was making things up. They just couldn't comprehend how such a charming, handsome man who was in such a good job could do the kinds of things I said he did.
You can't believe the number of people who apologized to me later after they witnessed/experienced his craziness. I often had to fight the urge to say I told you so. It was quite hard at times.
Intellectually I knew that it wasn't that people thought I was a liar, they just couldn't reconcile his facade with his actions until those actions were witnessed or effected them. And they didn't get the full brunt of his craziness.
If you and your friend continue to communicate, you should let her know that you won't make an issue out of your brother, but at the same time, that you can not be around if he is around, so you are bowing out gracefully at those times. A sincere and quiet warning for her to be careful around your brother is about as far as you can go.
I think she hasn't apologized as she can not see what she did to hurt you. I'm betting really can't see it at this time.
I will be tempted to say "I told you so" as well, even though that isn't helpful and I realize that.
It's hard for me (and sounds like you can relate) because I feel like true friends believe each other...and if she believed what I said about him, there's no way she'd let him around her kids. That's a concern of mine...not only is he manipulative and untrustworthy, but he's dangerous. My alarm bells are going off and for good reason and I don't understand why hers aren't, especially considering she has two young daughters. I will have no satisfaction when he does something terrible to or in front of her kids, it will only be guilt and regret.
But, you can't make anyone believe anything, especially if they won't even really listen. And I am taking the steps necessary to insulate myself and my child from his behavior and the risks and danger that go along with it. One day she will have to do the same, I just wish it would be before the worst rather than after the fact.
She's got you one one side saying, hey, this guy is no good. She's got her husband on the other saying, my best friend how awesome!
It's a fight you can't even enter into. You definitely should let her know that you simply cannot be around him so when he visits you cannot or will have to leave. That doesn't mean that you don't value her friendship you just have a conflict that you hope she is never actually able to understand.
She is not deliberately hurting you. You are choosing to feel hurt because you interpret her actions as being not supportive. She is making the best of what is turning out to be an awkward situation. Being inconsiderate and not supportive would be mocking you for what you feel or deliberately inviting him over at the same time you'll be there and not telling you. Saying you're a crybaby if you leave. A friend will support your decision not to be around him, not necessarily choose not to be around him themselves.
If your brother acts like the arse that you know he is, then she and her husband will have to make some choices, but until then, they've got his nice charming bit going on. He may never act like the complete arse you know he can be around them...kind of frustrating as his actions will imply that you're a liar...you're not, of course, but the longer he manages to be a decent person around them the more they'll think you're making a big deal out of nothing or that he's actually changed. People never think that it will happen to them. You can leave it that you have a personal conflict that is unresolvable with him no matter what he does and that's fine and calm. If they want to revisit the issue you can offer an explanation but until he's an arse you'll just look like you're not letting old grudges die a natural death.
Very much agreed.
Also I was going to second Mooni's earlier advice about not prematurely ending the friendship just to protect yourself.
But it seems like you're already doing that very well. Good for you!
I will note that even though your friend's words didn't necessarily show it, I think the fact that she text you does indicate that she misses you and values your friendship.
I hope you guys work it out. Friends are a good thing to have and keep. Forgiveness is necessary sometimes, but it usually just makes your relationship stronger.
Original Post by moonikins:
This was much the same for me with my ex-husband. He is batshhiittcrazy and able to do the most insane hurtful crazy stuff. Yet he was so charming to other people and quite often people either thought I had a grudge or was exaggerating or was making things up. They just couldn't comprehend how such a charming, handsome man who was in such a good job could do the kinds of things I said he did.
You can't believe the number of people who apologized to me later after they witnessed/experienced his craziness. I often had to fight the urge to say I told you so. It was quite hard at times.
Intellectually I knew that it wasn't that people thought I was a liar, they just couldn't reconcile his facade with his actions until those actions were witnessed or effected them. And they didn't get the full brunt of his craziness.
It took a lot of clear-sightedness to realize that and a lot of strength to then base your decisions and actions on it. I have madd respect for that. I don't know many people who would have handled that situation as well.
Lost you remind me of me, lol. I would be hurt & mad. My friendship rules are if you are bad to my bf, we will not be friends. Loyalty is top. I could see her dealing w/him bc of the husband, but not embracing him like that. Also, did you note how she threw the guilt at you, I can't believe how you threw our friendship away, look what you did, yada yada? She's projecting the fault back to you. Not cool.
Good luck.
She is not deliberately hurting you. You are choosing to feel hurt because you interpret her actions as being not supportive. She is making the best of what is turning out to be an awkward situation. Being inconsiderate and not supportive would be mocking you for what you feel or deliberately inviting him over at the same time you'll be there and not telling you. Saying you're a crybaby if you leave. A friend will support your decision not to be around him, not necessarily choose not to be around him themselves.
My update will be ironic in sight of this portion of your comment, which I know was well meaning and really, ideal.
However...things sort of fell apart over the weekend. I was trying to keep my cool, I was so proud of myself, but it just got out of hand. I was being so choosy with my words and attempting to be diplomatic, but she kept defending him. "He's not a bad person, he wouldn't do anything bad to anyone, he deserves a second chance." What that translates to is: "I don't believe you, I don't think your experiences with your brother are relevant or even true."
I didn't ask her to choose sides. She has said that she won't. But her words and actions indicate otherwise. I lost my cool. There, I said it, I own it. I feel terrible. I feel like an angry, violent person full of hate and rage. The more she defended him (which was her response to my expressions of concern), the angrier I got. I was not prepared to plead my case. I don't feel like I should have to, especially not to my "best" friend. Thing is, she doesn't even know him. She's been around him, yes, but she does not know him. So what would make her think she has a right to tell me that I'm wrong and she's right???? It was insulting.
With my friends, I always flip the script. I ask myself what I would do in her situation if she was in mine. And I just can't picture myself doing any of this to her. Maybe I am hyper aware of the way things can be interpreted by someone who is already feeling sensitive and insecure (me, initially, in this situation), but I always try to consider how the things I do and say will make the other person feel, no matter how just I feel my intentions are.
Sigh. You guys are tired of this story. I am sick of this story. I am at a loss. I have somehow emerged as the bad guy in this scenario, partly due to my terrible temper...but partly because, and I can't help but feel this, she never really cared that much to begin with. I'm disposable. I'm not worth loyalty.
Ugh
It would bother me too. It sounds like your friend doesn't get what your brother has done to you, but I don't think she is trying to hurt you. She knows that's your sibling and she probably thinks it's not a good idea for HER to say anything bad about him (he is your family). Also, she was friends with him long before he moved.
This is a difficult situation, but it's best that you keep the drama of your brother out of conversation with her, since they are friends again. Like others have said, let them come to the conclusion of who your brother is.
I'd just let the dust settle a bit, and wait it all out. At least you've stated your position. If he turns out to have changed, cool, no harm-no foul, but if he doesn't, you've separated yourself from his behavior in a memorable way. In other words, she can't lay it on you when he screws them over.
That said, I'd drop it from here on out. And find a new friend.
Original Post by mjsophia:
It would bother me too. It sounds like your friend doesn't get what your brother has done to you, but I don't think she is trying to hurt you. She knows that's your sibling and she probably thinks it's not a good idea for HER to say anything bad about him (he is your family). Also, she was friends with him long before he moved.
This is a difficult situation, but it's best that you keep the drama of your brother out of conversation with her, since they are friends again. Like others have said, let them come to the conclusion of who your brother is.
They weren't actually friends. 
He has hated her from the beginning and has consistently said that Steve doesn't love her, they don't belong together, the only reason he is with her is the kids, Steve would be happier if he'd never met her, etc, etc. That's part of what makes the thing so unbelievable to me.
Does she know he's said those things about her?
But Steve and Josh are friends (or at least are acting like it right now).
I don't think Sarah is choosing Josh over you. She's choosing Steve over you. She is supporting her husband's choice of friends, because she isn't willing to risk Josh driving a wedge into her marriage. There might even be things going on that you aren't aware of - issues between Sarah and Steve that make her more willing to accept someone who hasn't ever been nice to her before.
Or Josh is bending over backwards to impress her, and she's falling for it.
As kathy said, let the dust settle. Don't assume that the friendship is over with Sarah, but take this time to make new friends.
Original Post by lostintennessee:
Sigh. You guys are tired of this story. I am sick of this story. I am at a loss. I have somehow emerged as the bad guy in this scenario, partly due to my terrible temper...but partly because, and I can't help but feel this, she never really cared that much to begin with. I'm disposable. I'm not worth loyalty.
Ugh
Hi Lost. You are reacting the way I always used to react in the past. You turned your hurt towards yourself and blame yourself for what happened. "If only I wasn't so worthless, someone would love me." That has been the message that played through my head most of my life. It started in childhood due to a dysfunctional family and is still not completely gone.
It's so sad to see so many people, especially women, go through this. Please be aware that other than losing your temper, you did nothing wrong. There is nothing wrong with you. You wouldn't have lost your temper if you had been taught how to deal with these kinds of feelings and hurtful situations. Anger is often the first response and is a self-protective mode of defense that ultimately leads to more hurt feelings. Anger is protective in that it keeps the hurt away.
The rest I'm going to tell you from my experience in this situation and from an outsider's perspective.
1) Your friend truly can't see how bad your brother is. She can only go by what she has seen/felt. It is not that she thinks you are lying. It's that she can't imagine the person that she has just met and begun to know with crazy dangerous behavior. It just does not compute in her eyes.
2) Your feelings of hurt and betrayal are real. They are valid. They are yours alone to feel and deal with. You know what your brother did to you. You know what kind of behavior he is capable of. Whatever he did to you in the past has left some deep scars and hurt.
3) I was made out to be the bad person due to these kind of circumstances twice. One was multiple times by my ex and one was a crazy lady at a previous employer. I found that the only way to avoid being made out to be the bad guy is to simply back all the way off and to take the higher ground no matter how hard and/or hurtful it was. The crazy lady at work was worse, because she was able to turn quite a number of people against me for quite some time. I can't tell you how hurt I was. I felt so betrayed by so many. Thru this I finally learned that you truly can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink. When people found out the truth about Sandra (by the way, I now can not stand the name Sandra) and her lies, they were appalled. Many people felt ashamed and guilty that they did not believe me. It felt too late in many ways for me. It was truly awful.
About all you can do now is to contact your friend and tell her that you apologize for losing your temper. You can only tell her that your brother hurt you so deeply and severely that you may never fully recover from it and that at this time, you can not give him a 2nd chance. Then you can tell her that you want her and her children to be safe and that you hope she is cautious around him.
4) Only time will tell if your brother has made any real changes. If he is the same, it won't be long before his bad behavior will become apparent. How long was he able to keep up a facade of decent/good behavior in the past? There is not much else you can do.
I am so sorry to see you go through this. I'd like to recommend a book to you, it's called "I Can Heal My Life" by Louise Hay. She talks a lot about how we are programmed from early childhood to dislike ourselves and blame ourselves. She shows how these beliefs hold us back and how to overcome them through positive means.
I am sending energy and light to you. You deserve both.
Original Post by amethystgirl:
But Steve and Josh are friends (or at least are acting like it right now).
I don't think Sarah is choosing Josh over you. She's choosing Steve over you. She is supporting her husband's choice of friends, because she isn't willing to risk Josh driving a wedge into her marriage. There might even be things going on that you aren't aware of - issues between Sarah and Steve that make her more willing to accept someone who hasn't ever been nice to her before.
Or Josh is bending over backwards to impress her, and she's falling for it.
As kathy said, let the dust settle. Don't assume that the friendship is over with Sarah, but take this time to make new friends.
Ditto what AG has said as well.
And Lost, we are not tired of your story. We are here to listen and support. Sometimes the internet is the best place for this kind of stuff.
No. I feel like she should, but I also feel like at this point, if I said it, it would only look like I was trying to turn her against him and make her choose sides. Also, it would be hurtful to her and I don't like the idea of delivering a message that will most definitely cause hurt and likely embarassment.
In a bad spirited way, I don't feel like she deserves to know. She has hurt me a lot within the last week and has made me feel like I can't be honest or talk to her about things that are really hurtful to me. Why should I go further to prevent her from getting hurt or making a fool of herself? Yes, I care about her, but my negative feelings are causing me to feel like she should have to learn the hard way...
Original Post by moonikins:
Original Post by lostintennessee:
Sigh. You guys are tired of this story. I am sick of this story. I am at a loss. I have somehow emerged as the bad guy in this scenario, partly due to my terrible temper...but partly because, and I can't help but feel this, she never really cared that much to begin with. I'm disposable. I'm not worth loyalty.
Ugh
2) Your feelings of hurt and betrayal are real. They are valid. They are yours alone to feel and deal with. You know what your brother did to you. You know what kind of behavior he is capable of. Whatever he did to you in the past has left some deep scars and hurt.
Thank you for saying that. That means a lot. I told her over the weekend that just because she disagrees, doesn't mean that she is "right" and I am "wrong". It simply means we don't share the same opinion. I hate when people try to take the validity of feelings away...in my opinion, they don't necessarily always have to make sense or follow rhyme or reason. Plus, does she think I enjoy feeling this way? It sucks. If she could have just said, "I understand, I'm sorry", it would have made a world of difference.
I hope my situation does not continue the way yours did...it will be hard for me to keep my cool. I hate feeling forced to walk away to simply avoid unpleasantness that I don't really even feel like I am responsible for. But if I can't talk to her about it and she clearly as fallen under his spell (he's very, very manipulative), it's either shut up or walk away seemingly empty handed.
If she doesn't know all the damage your brother tried to do to her, then it sounds like she's trying to play peace-maker without all the facts. This should make it easier for you to forgive her. Maybe she's trying to help you all heal.
You can either lay it all out on the table and let the chips fall where they may or you can keep quiet and let him do whatever it is he's going to do.
Do you have any concerns that he'll hurt your friend's kids? That would be the only thing that would make me further the confrontation at this point.
It does feel like you're walking away empty-handed. And that feeling sucks. I can truthfully say that when I look back on the situation involving Sandra that I still feel hurt by some of the people that didn't believe me (read that "took" Sandra's side). I've been gone from that place since early 2006. So the hurt does fade, but does not necessarily go completely away.
One of my dear friends that really fell under Sandra's spell was very sorry and we still have a good friendship today. She has talked to me about how she knows how hurt I felt. I could only forgive her, and tell her that I understood how people believed Sandra. Sandra was extremely manipulative and cunning. These people often are.
I was crusading with people to see the truth. You can't make people see truth.
