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Carrying the Torch for London

There have been numerous competitions over the past few months for kids to enter..the prize is to carry the Olympic Torch for next year.

I don't think this is quite what they had in mind

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/photos/in-pictures-l ondon-riots-1312800593-slideshow/

We are a nation of YOBS!!

Welcome to the London Olympics where we burn people out of their homes, loot the local shops, hurl bricks at the police, shoot people in their cars.

Take photo's of residents protecting their homes with pots and pans.

Hope you enjoy your visit.

Wondering if this behaviour will spread to Scotland, namely Glasgow...time will tell but I hope not.

Original Post by melkor:

One can understand the factors that go into triggering the riots and the massive pent-up reservoir of formless rage from Britain's Lost Generation without condoning rioting, looting and violence. Understanding the reasons and motives behind the actions doesn't translate into approving of them - there are legitimate grievances but looting Sony's distribution center for their Playstations isn't the way to address those.

 But Crazi, you're still talking about the motivation for the student riots last year when the middle and lower classes discovered that their career paths to higher education had been effectively cut off. This is a different group of people, who've never had any of the so-called entitlements you're talking about.

Bolded part: Holy crap, Melkor.  We actually agree on something.

As for the student riots last year, the government purposed to raise tuition, right?  Why does government have anything to do with this?  Good grief.  It's all part of the problem.  However, from what I remember, the riots were started by a small minority (I.e. Anarchists) and then these protesters joined in.  This is what always occurs.  A small group of people start a riot, then other folks who aren't happy join in.  If memory serves me correcly, wasn't this the same group of folks who attacked the Prince of Wales and his Wife?

Reminds me a bit of the whole Rodney King riots, back in the 80's.

Original Post by melkor:

One can understand the factors that go into triggering the riots and the massive pent-up reservoir of formless rage from Britain's Lost Generation without condoning rioting, looting and violence. Understanding the reasons and motives behind the actions doesn't translate into approving of them - there are legitimate grievances but looting Sony's distribution center for their Playstations isn't the way to address those.

 But Crazi, you're still talking about the motivation for the student riots last year when the middle and lower classes discovered that their career paths to higher education had been effectively cut off. This is a different group of people, who've never had any of the so-called entitlements you're talking about.

^This

What those of you Americans who keep ranting aganst 'entitlements' don't understand is that Europe doesn't support the dream of the selfmade man. There is a reason why so many of us try to go the the US for a fresh start.

Over here many people share a very small place - London especially is incredibly crowded. Having a roof over your head is a real struggle over there. Add children into the bargain and you have a real problem because local school ins poor (i.e. cheaper) areas are horrendous. If your child isn't a genius they are stuck with a crappy education that won't lead to any fancy uni.

And you can't just go and open a shop or start a new career. You need certificates (expensive ones) loans (which you won't get) and connections (which you won't have unless youve been to the right school/uni)

80% of the jobs in politics and media are occupied by people who went to Oxford and Cambridge. It's a fairly rigid class system - and one that still works.

They have closed youthclubs, pools, public gyms, libraries etc. etc. There are virtually no spaces for young people to meet - there certainly isn't space at their homes. A whole part of society has been parked in social housing at the edge of the cities. They are trying to get rid of the larger estates, thank God, but some of these places are ghettos of poverty - and only a bus ride away from the areas which are inhabited only by multi-millionaires.

These riots are frustrating to watch because it is hooligans grabbing new trainers and a free telly but the fact that it spreads so much is no longer just a question of a few criminals. It's a state of national unrest and you can't just say 'Oh, those are all useless people who are sulky becuase their benefits were cut so now they can no longer buy ciggies'.

I don't know what the solution for this will be, but the English government will have to do more than just send every ablebodied policeman/woman they have onto the streets.

I don't think it'll spread to other countries. France had a similar problem a year or two back and it didn't spread. In Germany we have a 'riot day' for anybody who wants to throw stones at policemen (1st of May in BErlin. The only time where you'll see whole streets near where I live with not a single car parked in them). Greece has been through it's protests, it seems, and other countries simply don't have this extreme gap between the very rich and the very poor who live right next to each other.

I have friends in Brixton. They are ok, fortunately.

I never ranted about anything. I stand by my original post.

Original Post by crazineko:

As for the student riots last year, the government purposed to raise tuition, right?  Why does government have anything to do with this?  Good grief.  It's all part of the problem.  However, from what I remember, the riots were started by a small minority (I.e. Anarchists) and then these protesters joined in.  This is what always occurs.  A small group of people start a riot, then other folks who aren't happy join in.  If memory serves me correcly, wasn't this the same group of folks who attacked the Prince of Wales and his Wife?

It's called a public education system here. The idea is to make education accessible to everybody to ensure a population that is highly educated throughout.

If you have no natural resources to sell you kind of rely on educated human resources. The UK are already importing a huge number of doctors, engeneers etc. becuase they aren't educating enough of their own kids.

And, no, the people that are rioting now have nothing to do with the students who realized that being burdened with a gigantic student loan menas they'll never make it onto the property ladder which in the UK means you stay a second class citizen for the rest of your life.

I was in London the day before this. I witnessed a robbery happen, it was horrifying. Felt like we (husband and I) left just in time, as the riots began the next morning (we left the evening prior).

The people who are rioting/acting like animals are just taking advantage of a situation to steal/plunder/destroy property.

Edit: I don't know why I went to look at those pictures. I'm suffering with some kind of annoying PTSD from the robbery and some of the photos are triggering. I was just in Birmingham City Center and... gah.

'Course, this is a very British response - the volunteer cleanup brigades vastly outnumber the violent rioters.

Well they are now posting pictures of a few who are on the wanted list. These fools forget that we as a nation are the most watched in the western world, we have cameras everywhere many have been caught on them and regardless of age will face the heaviest penalties.

The PM has just made a statement..."if you are old enough to commit these crimes you are old enough to face the consequences"

It is good that we being who we are think well guess be better get out and clean up.

I hate hate hate when people use childhood etc as excuses for bad behaviour.

We wait to see what tonight brings. The police used a drive right at them policy last night and it worked.

Yes the police appeared on the streets with armoured vehicles and drove right into the crowds at speed...guess what the moved on HA HA

The are taking no more if it kicks off tonight? I think they will see how tough our police can be.

Original Post by kikt:

Original Post by melkor:

One can understand the factors that go into triggering the riots and the massive pent-up reservoir of formless rage from Britain's Lost Generation without condoning rioting, looting and violence. Understanding the reasons and motives behind the actions doesn't translate into approving of them - there are legitimate grievances but looting Sony's distribution center for their Playstations isn't the way to address those.

 But Crazi, you're still talking about the motivation for the student riots last year when the middle and lower classes discovered that their career paths to higher education had been effectively cut off. This is a different group of people, who've never had any of the so-called entitlements you're talking about.

^This

What those of you Americans who keep ranting aganst 'entitlements' don't understand is that Europe doesn't support the dream of the selfmade man. There is a reason why so many of us try to go the the US for a fresh start.

Over here many people share a very small place - London especially is incredibly crowded. Having a roof over your head is a real struggle over there. Add children into the bargain and you have a real problem because local school ins poor (i.e. cheaper) areas are horrendous. If your child isn't a genius they are stuck with a crappy education that won't lead to any fancy uni.

And you can't just go and open a shop or start a new career. You need certificates (expensive ones) loans (which you won't get) and connections (which you won't have unless youve been to the right school/uni)

80% of the jobs in politics and media are occupied by people who went to Oxford and Cambridge. It's a fairly rigid class system - and one that still works.

They have closed youthclubs, pools, public gyms, libraries etc. etc. There are virtually no spaces for young people to meet - there certainly isn't space at their homes. A whole part of society has been parked in social housing at the edge of the cities. They are trying to get rid of the larger estates, thank God, but some of these places are ghettos of poverty - and only a bus ride away from the areas which are inhabited only by multi-millionaires.

These riots are frustrating to watch because it is hooligans grabbing new trainers and a free telly but the fact that it spreads so much is no longer just a question of a few criminals. It's a state of national unrest and you can't just say 'Oh, those are all useless people who are sulky becuase their benefits were cut so now they can no longer buy ciggies'.

I don't know what the solution for this will be, but the English government will have to do more than just send every ablebodied policeman/woman they have onto the streets.

 

I don't think it'll spread to other countries. France had a similar problem a year or two back and it didn't spread. In Germany we have a 'riot day' for anybody who wants to throw stones at policemen (1st of May in BErlin. The only time where you'll see whole streets near where I live with not a single car parked in them). Greece has been through it's protests, it seems, and other countries simply don't have this extreme gap between the very rich and the very poor who live right next to each other.

I have friends in Brixton. They are ok, fortunately.

That's a lots of stuff and nonsense.

What is going on is criminal behaviour - plain and simple. A door opened, an opportunity or better - an excuse, and lots of people have decided to take advantage.

Talk of poverty, social exclusion or whatever other excuse is just that, an excuse. An excuse for people to smash and for people to steal, and most are having the time of their lives.

What is more, they are burning and stealing from their communities, their neighbours homes and the local shops. They are not attacking the police stations or the town halls, or Parliament, but PC World, mobile phone shops and convenience stores that sell alcohol.

 . . . and century-old family businesses.

DP

Original Post by lysistrata:

 . . . and century-old family businesses.

that poor guy has just been on "The One Show" he was out celebrating his anniversary and saw it on a bulletin!

It's just so sad.

Original Post by fredajones:

Original Post by kikt:

What those of you Americans who keep ranting aganst 'entitlements' don't understand is that Europe doesn't support the dream of the selfmade man. There is a reason why so many of us try to go the the US for a fresh start.

Over here many people share a very small place - London especially is incredibly crowded. Having a roof over your head is a real struggle over there. Add children into the bargain and you have a real problem because local school ins poor (i.e. cheaper) areas are horrendous. If your child isn't a genius they are stuck with a crappy education that won't lead to any fancy uni.

And you can't just go and open a shop or start a new career. You need certificates (expensive ones) loans (which you won't get) and connections (which you won't have unless youve been to the right school/uni)

80% of the jobs in politics and media are occupied by people who went to Oxford and Cambridge. It's a fairly rigid class system - and one that still works.

They have closed youthclubs, pools, public gyms, libraries etc. etc. There are virtually no spaces for young people to meet - there certainly isn't space at their homes. A whole part of society has been parked in social housing at the edge of the cities. They are trying to get rid of the larger estates, thank God, but some of these places are ghettos of poverty - and only a bus ride away from the areas which are inhabited only by multi-millionaires.

These riots are frustrating to watch because it is hooligans grabbing new trainers and a free telly but the fact that it spreads so much is no longer just a question of a few criminals. It's a state of national unrest and you can't just say 'Oh, those are all useless people who are sulky becuase their benefits were cut so now they can no longer buy ciggies'.

I don't know what the solution for this will be, but the English government will have to do more than just send every ablebodied policeman/woman they have onto the streets.

 

I don't think it'll spread to other countries. France had a similar problem a year or two back and it didn't spread. In Germany we have a 'riot day' for anybody who wants to throw stones at policemen (1st of May in BErlin. The only time where you'll see whole streets near where I live with not a single car parked in them). Greece has been through it's protests, it seems, and other countries simply don't have this extreme gap between the very rich and the very poor who live right next to each other.

I have friends in Brixton. They are ok, fortunately.

That's a lots of stuff and nonsense.

What is going on is criminal behaviour - plain and simple. A door opened, an opportunity or better - an excuse, and lots of people have decided to take advantage.

Talk of poverty, social exclusion or whatever other excuse is just that, an excuse. An excuse for people to smash and for people to steal, and most are having the time of their lives.

What is more, they are burning and stealing from their communities, their neighbours homes and the local shops. They are not attacking the police stations or the town halls, or Parliament, but PC World, mobile phone shops and convenience stores that sell alcohol.

I think you are confusing two things.

The individual thugs who goes out to get release some testosterone while getting 'free stuff' is not what we are talking about. These individuals are criminals and noone is 'excusing' anything.

The fact that there are hundreds of these thugs, maybe thousands, and riots are all over the country and that this is happening now is a social and political issue. You have to ask the question where this comes from and why this is happening to prevent it from happening again.

The other explanation, of course,  is that English people in general are just a bunch of loose cannons with a criminal tendency (and stupid to boot considering how many are oblcivious to the cctv that covers almost all of London) and will just go crazy if you cut down on police forces.

Unfortunately that interpretation isn't going to get you anywhere - except maybe to a more totalitarian government and more police presence.

Btw, since you got so personal: What uni did you go to? What jobs did your parents have and what do you do?

Original Post by andie-1:

Original Post by lysistrata:

 . . . and century-old family businesses.

 

that poor guy has just been on "The One Show" he was out celebrating his anniversary and saw it on a bulletin!

It's just so sad.

That is heartbreaking.  To hear this being compared to The Blitz is horrifying enough, but then to know that the people who did this are British citizens puts it over the top. 

Original Post by fredajones:

Original Post by kikt:

Original Post by melkor:

One can understand the factors that go into triggering the riots and the massive pent-up reservoir of formless rage from Britain's Lost Generation without condoning rioting, looting and violence. Understanding the reasons and motives behind the actions doesn't translate into approving of them - there are legitimate grievances but looting Sony's distribution center for their Playstations isn't the way to address those.

 But Crazi, you're still talking about the motivation for the student riots last year when the middle and lower classes discovered that their career paths to higher education had been effectively cut off. This is a different group of people, who've never had any of the so-called entitlements you're talking about.

^This

What those of you Americans who keep ranting aganst 'entitlements' don't understand is that Europe doesn't support the dream of the selfmade man. There is a reason why so many of us try to go the the US for a fresh start.

Over here many people share a very small place - London especially is incredibly crowded. Having a roof over your head is a real struggle over there. Add children into the bargain and you have a real problem because local school ins poor (i.e. cheaper) areas are horrendous. If your child isn't a genius they are stuck with a crappy education that won't lead to any fancy uni.

And you can't just go and open a shop or start a new career. You need certificates (expensive ones) loans (which you won't get) and connections (which you won't have unless youve been to the right school/uni)

80% of the jobs in politics and media are occupied by people who went to Oxford and Cambridge. It's a fairly rigid class system - and one that still works.

They have closed youthclubs, pools, public gyms, libraries etc. etc. There are virtually no spaces for young people to meet - there certainly isn't space at their homes. A whole part of society has been parked in social housing at the edge of the cities. They are trying to get rid of the larger estates, thank God, but some of these places are ghettos of poverty - and only a bus ride away from the areas which are inhabited only by multi-millionaires.

These riots are frustrating to watch because it is hooligans grabbing new trainers and a free telly but the fact that it spreads so much is no longer just a question of a few criminals. It's a state of national unrest and you can't just say 'Oh, those are all useless people who are sulky becuase their benefits were cut so now they can no longer buy ciggies'.

I don't know what the solution for this will be, but the English government will have to do more than just send every ablebodied policeman/woman they have onto the streets.

 

I don't think it'll spread to other countries. France had a similar problem a year or two back and it didn't spread. In Germany we have a 'riot day' for anybody who wants to throw stones at policemen (1st of May in BErlin. The only time where you'll see whole streets near where I live with not a single car parked in them). Greece has been through it's protests, it seems, and other countries simply don't have this extreme gap between the very rich and the very poor who live right next to each other.

I have friends in Brixton. They are ok, fortunately.

That's a lots of stuff and nonsense.

What is going on is criminal behaviour - plain and simple. A door opened, an opportunity or better - an excuse, and lots of people have decided to take advantage.

Talk of poverty, social exclusion or whatever other excuse is just that, an excuse. An excuse for people to smash and for people to steal, and most are having the time of their lives.

What is more, they are burning and stealing from their communities, their neighbours homes and the local shops. They are not attacking the police stations or the town halls, or Parliament, but PC World, mobile phone shops and convenience stores that sell alcohol.

What the problem in the UK is is that we have a generation who think this country owes them a living...they have had it so easy for so long and now god forbid they are having to budget their social money.

We have a generation who don't care about anyone or anything but themselves.

There are way too many lazy folk in the UK many of whom have never worked a day in their life and up until recently they have gotten away with it.

Oh yes we are going to hear all about the disadvantaged! well sorry it doesn't wash with me. I didn't grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth, I don't go out and burn peoples homes and businesses and loot for a 42"TV.

It's hilarious seeing a bunch of people who've never once known a day of hunger talk about the motivations of poor people.

Clueless and proud.

Just sit back, never investigate, and keep living in fear and wonder of the anger of the so-called "over-entitled poor". Arbitrary declarations of their evilness is much easier and cleaner than an honest examination of why they're doing what they do.

Original Post by andie-1:
- What the problem in the UK is is that we have a generation who think this country owes them a living...they have had it so easy for so long and now god forbid they are having to budget their social money.

- We have a generation who don't care about anyone or anything but themselves.

- There are way too many lazy folk in the UK many of whom have never worked a day in their life and up until recently they have gotten away with it.

Oh yes we are going to hear all about the disadvantaged! well sorry it doesn't wash with me. I didn't grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth, I don't go out and burn peoples homes and businesses and loot for a 42"TV.

-What 'social money'?

-Considering the huge voluntary 'clean-up crews' I think it's not true. I also think there is no 'one generation in the UK. London, at least is incredibly fragmented.

-You are buying into conservative propaganda. While there are plenty of bad apples,  there are also a hell of a lot of people on those estates who never ever wanted to be there. And the amount of impoverished single women is as phenomenal in the UK as the number of infant deaths and avoidable deaths due to undiagnosed breast cancer.

- you don't and most others don't either - but you have nationwide riots. Just saying 'They should all be locked up' is not a solution to the gigantic problem the UK has.

I can see smoke. They just broke into the Arndale Centre in Manchester. You can tell how hungry and desperate these poor people are, looting all the shoe and electronics stores.

Original Post by hatamoto:

It's hilarious seeing a bunch of people who've never once known a day of hunger talk about the motivations of poor people.

Clueless and proud.

Just sit back, never investigate, and keep living in fear and wonder of the anger of the so-called "over-entitled poor". Arbitrary declarations of their evilness is much easier and cleaner than an honest examination of why they're doing what they do.

I am talking from my own experience I have had days when I have gone hungry so I am far from being clueless.

If you take a good look at those who are doing this they are not starving in fact many are wearing designer gear.

There is no excuse for what they are doing.

kikt  social money  (Dole money) is what we give to the unemployed. Most of the ones who did the damage were in boxed age group and the trouble which has started tonight in Manchester is the same.

Impoverished people in this country can't afford to have/run cars some of these YOBS were pulling up to shops with their cars to fill them up and the cars didn't look like wrecks either.

So it is way off the mark to assume that these youths are poor and starving.

There are many folk in the UK who are good, and thankfully the 16yr old in Glasgow who tried to get a riot started there was not only shot down in flames he has also been arrested and charged.

Original Post by heatseaker:

I can see smoke. They just broke into the Arndale Centre in Manchester. You can tell how hungry and desperate these poor people are, looting all the shoe and electronics stores.

yeah just what i was typing out they don't know what hunger is.

I hope you will be OK ?