A judgemental thread. Just in time for the holidays...
What comes to mind when you hear someone has been forclosed on?
What comes to mind when you hear someone bought their SO a car as a gift?
what comes to mind when you see an obese person?
What about a very thin person?
People without a high school diploma...
people with a ph.d...
Original Post by pgeorgian:
Original Post by phoebe_luvs_smallville:
Let's begin with the idea that not everyone has the intelligence and/orambition to get a Ph.D, even if the financing of their education is not a dilemma. And therein lies the problem. Jealousy. One cannot will themselves to become more intelligent, unfortunately. So, it's easier for the rest of us to take cheap shots at those whose intelligence we find intimidating. It's most likely even worse for those who have the intelligence, but lack the finances or time...
...or are just too lazy ;)
What about aren't really interested?
Original Post by lysistrata:
Original Post by pgeorgian:
Original Post by phoebe_luvs_smallville:
Let's begin with the idea that not everyone has the intelligence and/orambition to get a Ph.D, even if the financing of their education is not a dilemma. And therein lies the problem. Jealousy. One cannot will themselves to become more intelligent, unfortunately. So, it's easier for the rest of us to take cheap shots at those whose intelligence we find intimidating. It's most likely even worse for those who have the intelligence, but lack the finances or time...
...or are just too lazy ;)
What about aren't really interested?
PhDs don't understand why anyone would not be interested in getting a PhD.
i take it back. i thought interest was implied in phoebe's post, but clearly i was mistaken.
Original Post by dnrothx:
Yes, urban dwellers have a whole lot of light pollution to deal with, but John Dobson, notably, tried to instill in them an appreciation of astronomy nonetheless, setting up telescopes right in downtown San Francisco...
Also, sitting with my father watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos on PBS when I was a kid when it was aired for the first time was definitely influential, despite it being over the boob tube...
Nice! I knew who he was (my telescope has a Dobsonian mount) but I didn't know he set up scopes for public consumption. Deep field viewing from downtown of any city is going to result in disappointment so looking at stars isn't much good with personal, portable telescopes... but with a large enough aperture people could easily see planets all the way to Saturn, and on a clear night maybe even some of the jovian satellites or a glimpse of the spot if you can find a darkish place to view from.
I saw Halley's comet from an urban scope, in the field beside the then brand new Edmonton Space Sciences Centre (aka Air Ecologizer) in the winter of '85.
Still, dark, clear skies unimpeded by light pollution is the best place to really look up. There's an organization that's been successful in gettting some places in Canada set aside as "sky preserves"; areas guaranteed to be substantively free of extraneous light from artificial sources. Lucky for me, one is very nearby, less than 2 hour's drive away... and it is inky black on a moonless night, which is exactly what you want to allow your eyes to adjust for maximum sensitivity.
Cosmos was and remains awesome and awe-inspiring. I look forward to the remake/extension that Dr. Neil Degrasse Tyson is doing.
I am a little late to this conversation, as usual. But I have to comment, since I just finished my PhD. Whether or not getting a PhD is a good decision is as unique to an individual as whether or not to get married or have kids, take a job out of state, get a dog, go vegetarian, or learn to snowboard. It is really impossible to generalize. A financial cost-benefit analysis is NOT the only thing that matters for everyone.
As for arrogance, I am convinced that some get their PhDs in part because they're already arrogant and/or insecure, and then that quality intensifies or maybe just becomes more noticeable to others when they have the degree. But not all PhDs are arrogant, and I certainly don't think I am. If anything, I have self-confidence problems. Getting the degree and being involved in research has helped my social skills tremendously. When I started my masters program I was so painfully shy that I could barely bring myself to speak in class, let alone in front of a group. After working on that in grad school, I then got a job where I had to supervise people, coordinate meetings, and give scientific presentations. I am much better at dealing with social situations than I used to be, because of grad school and research.
I also have plenty of real-world experience even though I just finished my PhD last month. I got a job in research before I had even finished my masters thesis, and then I worked full time in a field research group for 4 years before I started my PhD. Then I continued to work full time throughout the 5 years that it took to finish my degree, making up the hours for classes in the evenings and on weekends.
I have no debt from school, because I worked my way through my masters on a teaching assistantship (included a fee waiver). Then, because I was working full time, I was able to cover out of pocket the relatively small amount that I did not cover with the competitive fellowships that I received. That's not to say that the PhD cost me nothing, but it was not the debt-inducing burden that some here assume a PhD to be. If I had not been working, I could have done the teaching assistant thing or been a research assistant in a lab, as many in my program did, and still make it through without debt. Also, many of my fellow grad students used this time when schedules were more flexible to start their families. It is not an easy thing to do, but it seems very common to have kids while in grad school. My point is that grad school can be a lifestyle choice rather than a huge financial sacrifice.
The reason I chose to get my PhD is that the group that I was working for had a clear ceiling above which you just couldn't go without the degree. So it was a practical choice to enhance my future career options. It was also a very positive experience in that I learned a lot and got to meet and work with great people.
Original Post by mjsophia:
What comes to mind when you hear someone has been forclosed on?
So glad I'm a renter.What comes to mind when you hear someone bought their SO a car as a gift? I really don't care. It's one of those "smile and nod" things.
what comes to mind when you see an obese person? Different things, depending on the person. Sometimes I think "hey, she's well put-together" or I might do the Jabba the Hut voice in my head or a million other things.
What about a very thin person? Different things, depending on the person. If they're very, very thin, I usually wonder how easily they could be broken or if they're cold.
People without a high school diploma...I hope you learned a trade or have some other talent that doesn't involve flipping burgers forever.
people with a ph.d...Different things, depending on the person. I usually wonder how they're putting their knowledge to use and what their goals are. Unless it's a person with a Ph.D in veterinary science who hasn't completed vet school...that just baffles and annoys me.
Original Post by pgeorgian:
Original Post by phoebe_luvs_smallville:
Let's begin with the idea that not everyone has the intelligence and/orambition to get a Ph.D, even if the financing of their education is not a dilemma. And therein lies the problem. Jealousy. One cannot will themselves to become more intelligent, unfortunately. So, it's easier for the rest of us to take cheap shots at those whose intelligence we find intimidating. It's most likely even worse for those who have the intelligence, but lack the finances or time...
...or are just too lazy ;)
Spot on.
I can't believe we have an 18 page thread where people are arguing about PhD.
Why is it so hard to accept that some people are smarter or more hard working or just more driven than ourselves?
I'm not academic enough so I'll never have a PhD and I'm not enough of an entrepeneur so I'll never have my own business and I'm too capricious so I'll never have a high paying job that keeps me in front of a computer 60 hours a week. Maybe, when I'm older I'll try and built my own house (with help), so I might have that, but, really, is it so hard to accept that there are people out there who simply have what it takes to achieve something significant that we can't (or won't)??
Original Post by denise07:
The reason I chose to get my PhD is that the group that I was working for had a clear ceiling above which you just couldn't go without the degree. So it was a practical choice to enhance my future career options. It was also a very positive experience in that I learned a lot and got to meet and work with great people.
What's your field? And if you don't mind my asking, what did you do your thesis on?
Original Post by kikt:
I can't believe we have an 18 page thread where people are arguing about PhD.
Why is it so hard to accept that some people are smarter or more hard working or just more driven than ourselves?
I'm not academic enough so I'll never have a PhD and I'm not enough of an entrepeneur so I'll never have my own business and I'm too capricious so I'll never have a high paying job that keeps me in front of a computer 60 hours a week. Maybe, when I'm older I'll try and built my own house (with help), so I might have that, but, really, is it so hard to accept that there are people out there who simply have what it takes to achieve something significant that we can't (or won't)??
well put, kikt. i think this is what it comes down to. of the six potential criteria for judgment listed in the OP, the PhD is probably the only thing that actually gives information about an individual's character.
curious, given sophia's actual reason for posting was that she wanted to rag on people who get foreclosed upon.
Original Post by hatamoto:
Original Post by denise07:
The reason I chose to get my PhD is that the group that I was working for had a clear ceiling above which you just couldn't go without the degree. So it was a practical choice to enhance my future career options. It was also a very positive experience in that I learned a lot and got to meet and work with great people.
What's your field? And if you don't mind my asking, what did you do your thesis on?
Original Post by pgeorgian:
Original Post by kikt:
I can't believe we have an 18 page thread where people are arguing about PhD.
Why is it so hard to accept that some people are smarter or more hard working or just more driven than ourselves?
I'm not academic enough so I'll never have a PhD and I'm not enough of an entrepeneur so I'll never have my own business and I'm too capricious so I'll never have a high paying job that keeps me in front of a computer 60 hours a week. Maybe, when I'm older I'll try and built my own house (with help), so I might have that, but, really, is it so hard to accept that there are people out there who simply have what it takes to achieve something significant that we can't (or won't)??
well put, kikt. i think this is what it comes down to. of the six potential criteria for judgment listed in the OP, the PhD is probably the only thing that actually gives information about an individual's character.
curious, given sophia's actual reason for posting was that she wanted to rag on people who get foreclosed upon.
When I "Unschooled" my kids I had read the book Dumbing us Down and I recall a part of that book in the preface or maybe the first chapter where he talked about "Education Inflation" Basically this is back in "my day" you graduated from high school and then you got a job many well paying jobs and no college was needed because usually you learned the basics in school, and the employer was willing to train you to the job they needed you to perform. This is what I did in 1978 went to work for a large insurance company started off as a simple messenger, then got promoted to doing some coding of the claims, then an auditor. The company supplied me with lots of on the job training. Now to even get your foot in the door you need some piece of paper from a college. When I divorced I applied for a job at this company doing what I had done for 8 years, nope didn't qualify cause I don't have that college degree.
My ex is an associate dean of a local community college- he didn't even have a college degree at the time he started this job. He had also applied for many fire chief positions, but again despite having 26 years of experience being a fire chief because he doesn't have the bachelors degree he doesn't qualify. I believe he is working on getting this then the masters only so he can get a job and get out of the state college system due to cut backs. - Oh and I too taught a class at this community college with no college education myself. I just have real life experience and certification.
But my point is it used to be college wasn't needed, even high school wasn't implemented until the depression, just to keep the young boys out of the employable market and let the men with families have the few jobs available. used to be we could go to a trade school and have it mean something.
I have a certification, earned it in 2001 I keep it current and have good jobs that I enjoy, but still I see job listings and can't apply because I never went to college. I don't regret not going to college. I barely got out of high school. I found my niche in what I do - I just don't think being 52 I could stand having to go back to learn basic math again. My job does not require algebra so when I'd need that I would be able to honestly say " I don't know why I have to learn this I don't need it in my job!"
If someone has that drive to obtain a high level education I admire them. School is just not something I enjoy. Plus being an older worker the chances a diploma will further my career I doubt it. It's bad enough just going to conferences and learning the newest things happening in my field as it is. Ick.!!!
Original Post by pgeorgian:
Original Post by kikt:
I can't believe we have an 18 page thread where people are arguing about PhD.
Why is it so hard to accept that some people are smarter or more hard working or just more driven than ourselves?
I'm not academic enough so I'll never have a PhD and I'm not enough of an entrepeneur so I'll never have my own business and I'm too capricious so I'll never have a high paying job that keeps me in front of a computer 60 hours a week. Maybe, when I'm older I'll try and built my own house (with help), so I might have that, but, really, is it so hard to accept that there are people out there who simply have what it takes to achieve something significant that we can't (or won't)??
well put, kikt. i think this is what it comes down to. of the six potential criteria for judgment listed in the OP, the PhD is probably the only thing that actually gives information about an individual's character.
curious, given sophia's actual reason for posting was that she wanted to rag on people who get foreclosed upon.
How true.
Original Post by denise07:
Original Post by hatamoto:
Original Post by denise07:
The reason I chose to get my PhD is that the group that I was working for had a clear ceiling above which you just couldn't go without the degree. So it was a practical choice to enhance my future career options. It was also a very positive experience in that I learned a lot and got to meet and work with great people.
What's your field? And if you don't mind my asking, what did you do your thesis on?
My field is ecology/wildlife & plant conservation. The "ceiling" is for the research component rather than the management (which generally requires a masters to be competitive). I'll PM you about the thesis.. (because my field is narrow enough that I am paranoid about identifying myself on the internet.)
Congratulations, Denise. What an interesting field, too.
Original Post by dnrothx:
Original Post by lysistrata:
Original Post by pgeorgian:
Original Post by phoebe_luvs_smallville:
Let's begin with the idea that not everyone has the intelligence and/orambition to get a Ph.D, even if the financing of their education is not a dilemma. And therein lies the problem. Jealousy. One cannot will themselves to become more intelligent, unfortunately. So, it's easier for the rest of us to take cheap shots at those whose intelligence we find intimidating. It's most likely even worse for those who have the intelligence, but lack the finances or time...
...or are just too lazy ;)
What about aren't really interested?
PhDs don't understand why anyone would not be interested in getting a PhD.
I think you're jealous of your daddy.
Updates on the higher education bubble.
Having lots of people still going to school in their thirties and forties is freaking awesome for banks. Isn't that a remarkable coincidence?
Original Post by lysistrata:
Updates on the higher education bubble.
Having lots of people still going to school in their thirties and forties is freaking awesome for banks. Isn't that a remarkable coincidence?
Hmmm... interesting.
Just for giggles, I decided to go back in the thread and look at the people who were advocating pro and anti PhDs.
Overall, people were about twice as likely to say complementary things than dismissive things.
On the pro side, for instance, there's myself, pg, suzushii, adrienne, kathy, roxy, furrybelly, and a host more. On the anti side, there's dbackerfan, dnrothx, pavlovcat (-ish), mjsophia (-ish), caloricat (seems to take it personally), cajunrider, sungiant, lysistrata, ignayshus and a few others.
On a hunch, I looked up the countries of origin for pro- and con-.
Pro- population has a fair decent distribution of countries: canada, germany, UK, US, and so on.
Con- population is exclusively american. Not one person I saw with a negative opinion of PhDs sourced from a country other than the US that I saw (admittedly my search wasn't exhaustive - if you're not a PhD fan and not from the US, please point it out).
This is hardly a representative sample of course, but it is interesting that the only negative voices, and certainly the most strident voices, against advanced degrees source solely from the US.
Original Post by dbackerfan:
Plus being an older worker the chances a diploma will further my career I doubt it.
Original Post by hatamoto:This is hardly a representative sample of course, but it is interesting that the only negative voices, and certainly the most strident voices, against advanced degrees source solely from the US.
i was thinking that was probably part of it. a predominance of private educational institutions mean that education is a privilege skewed toward the money, which means that the higher degrees tend to go to the spoiled elite, creating the illusion that PhDs don't know how to work.
i have an american colleague. we have the same qualifications, same job, same pay. his degree cost him about 10X what mine cost me (approximately 27 month's earnings at our current rate).
(cue sully complaining about otherpeople paying for my education.)
Original Post by pgeorgian:i have an american colleague. we have the same qualifications, same job, same pay. his degree cost him about 10X what mine cost me (approximately 27 month's earnings at our current rate).
(cue sully complaining about otherpeople paying for my education.)
Worldwide rates for education aren't so completely off base compared to Canada... if anything we're a bit above the median. US rates for education are comparable in community colleges and the like (a little bit higher than equivalent in Canada, but only on the order of maybe 10% or so difference), but the big name schools are completely wackadoo price-wise.
I don't think the issue is other people paying for your (and in the future, my) education... it seems more like those people in the US paying for other peoples' football teams and stadiums.
