Someone please call me out on this if it's as naive and short-sighted as I'm starting to think it may be...
I think that young women should be held to certain standards of dress regardless of current fashion trends. I don't think that a teenager should be wearing shorts that display butt cheeks or tops that display copious amounts of cleavage. Part of it is how I was raised. Part of it is having a 6 year old SD that will all too soon be wanting to wear too-revealing clothing.
How do you guys feel about young girls being modest? And if you think they should be, what are your reasons?
Original Post by janelovesjam:
To clarify, I am not equating leering and rape. I'm saying that for a man to shift his responsibility for behaving like a civilized person onto the girl or woman is crap.
(Meaning, if ccat can't control his 'stiffy' at the waterpark, it's not the girl's fault.)
Ah. Ok. I think that's a valid point. He should make judicious use of his towel and quit complaining.
Original Post by janelovesjam:
To clarify, I am not equating leering and rape. I'm saying that for a man to shift his responsibility for behaving like a civilized person onto the girl or woman is crap.
(Meaning, if ccat can't control his 'stiffy' at the waterpark, it's not the girl's fault.)
This is the point that Jane and I have been trying to make.
But there's been a lot of talking past people and misunderstanding in this discussion, so... this seems like a good stopping point for me.
:)
Original Post by roxysparkles:
Don't get mad at me because you can't control your erections!
Psst. No man can control his erection Rox...it's a biological response...like perspiration or hairs standing up on your neck. Just trust me...I actually have had one (a penis) for longer than you've been alive...I kinda know how it works.
Weren't you there with your daughter?
No. Wait, yes. And that made it more angering because I wanted to have quality time with my family, not feel like I had to put horse blinders on to keep from being aroused.
I dunno. The last place on earth I'd think about a guy getting a stiffy was at a water park chock full of children.
I agree. Which is why children of the age where they are developmentally similar to sexual beings shouldn't be walking around in their panties and bra in public.
You do realize that the average age a girl loses her virginity (and is engaging as a sexual being) is dropping...I believe it's now 15. ANd you DO realize that it is only in recent times and in primarily Western cultures that it is uncommon for women to be married only after they've become "legal". Women as recent as 100 years ago were married once they had their first period.
Like Marriage...trying to force men to act against their biological nature to preserve a societal boundry that society has created based on it's consensus moral opinion of the time...is always gonna be a struggle.
As anyone that deals with addictions or psychological issues knows all too well...people can't be held accountable for their thoughts. They can only be accountable for their actions. If I see a 16 year old at the beach (could be 14, could be 23) and I sexually fantasize about her or become aroused...that is a natural response to a visual stimulus. A visual stimulus that she (and her parents) have decided to provide to men. Now, if I take a camera pic or proposition her or assault her...I've made a choice to act inappropriately. I own that behavior...but I cannot held accountable for my thoughts. There are many thoughts I wish I didn't have. Many painful things all of us would like to forget. But holding me accountable for finding a 16 year old in her underwear attractive is no better than telling an abuse victim that they just "get over it already and stop thinking about it".
That's not right and that's not fair.
Original Post by jules817:
Original Post by kathygator:
Rape isn't about sex. Therefore, dressing or not dressing sexy has nothing to do with it. It's about power, control and abuse, not sex.
Such a good point! Another reason why the comparison between leering and rape bothers me.
Common decency also means that ogling and glancing are two different things. And I'm talking about teenagers since that's what the original conversation was about.
Another phrase that holds no meaning. Like "Common Sense". Common to who? Who's standards are we going by? The majority? God? Which God?
The majority of people think marriage should be between a man and a woman...should that be the rule because it is the "Common" opinion? Or the religiously backed (moral) opinion?
Hold people to your own standards if you wish...but don't be too disappointed when they don't find you view of decency equal to their own.
It doesn't. They're just trying to make an excuse. As someone already said, rape has nothing to do with sexual appeal of the victim. Women who walk around completely covered get raped too.
Original Post by caloricat:
Another phrase that holds no meaning. Like "Common Sense". Common to who? Who's standards are we going by? The majority? God? Which God?
The majority of people think marriage should be between a man and a woman...should that be the rule because it is the "Common" opinion? Or the religiously backed (moral) opinion?
Hold people to your own standards if you wish...but don't be too disappointed when they don't find you view of decency equal to their own.
I'm sure you'll be as understanding and accepting of this sort of attention from older men directed at your daughter when she's 12, 14, and so forth.
Shoot!
I said I was done.
Ok. Now I'm done.
Original Post by caloricat:
Another phrase that holds no meaning. Like "Common Sense". Common to who? Who's standards are we going by? The majority? God? Which God?
The majority of people think marriage should be between a man and a woman...should that be the rule because it is the "Common" opinion? Or the religiously backed (moral) opinion?
Hold people to your own standards if you wish...but don't be too disappointed when they don't find you view of decency equal to their own.
A decent person would be able to figure it out. You don't have to if you don't wish to--things would be a lot more boring around here without your special kind of decent.
Original Post by caloricat:
The majority of people think marriage should be between a man and a woman...should that be the rule because it is the "Common" opinion? Or the religiously backed (moral) opinion?
Untrue. Recent polling indicates the majority of Americans are for gay marriage. A slim majority, but a majority nonetheless.
Original Post by lasposacadavere:
Original Post by leronia:
did you see that I said she gets to spend the night at my sister's with my sister's step daughter? My sister is repsectful enough of my wishes that if there is something she is not sure I would allow my daughter to watch she calls first. and, yes, if I happen to watch or see or hear something that I feel has educational value if only to show her what NOT to do, I will tell her about it or let her watch the non-graphic parts and then we discuss why said thing was not appropriate or a better way to do/handle something.
I understand that she will always be exposed in some way, I can only control what happens in my house. I can still teach her my values and why I have them. I don't have any delusions about what might happen when she gets to college, but at that time she will no longer be living under my roof (well, maybe she will, but...). I can protect her innocence as long as possible and ensure she has the childhood I never did (though for different reasons). One reason I am this way is because when I was her age my dad let me leave the house for dinner with him and my sisters in a dress that reached my mid-thigh and with my bra stuffed, make up on...I thought I looked hot and apparently so did someone driving by. I looked older than my age without all that stuff, imagine how much older I looked. anyway....
It's your kid and all, but I'm not exactly sure that sheltering her from pretty much everything will ensure that she'll have a childhood.
First of all, there is a difference between strictly controlling everything she wears and letting her go out at, say, age 14 wearing clothes that cover 10% of her body and a stuffed bra. Also, I was an early bloomer, a curvy (as in having boobs, hips and a butt, not overweight) teen and looked older at age 15 than I do now at 22. My clothes were anything but revealing (I never cared for that) and I didn't wear make-up. I was still approached and ogled by men, even when I was covered head-to-toe. The thing is, once your daughter looks sexually mature, she will attract attention no matter what she wears. The only way to completely protect her from that is to lock her in the basement. Will you keep sheltering her or will you try to teach her how to deal with it when time comes?
I won't be able to shelter and protect her all of her life, no matter how much I might want to. What parent doesn't want to? I want her to know that she needs to dress/act in a way as to show she respects herself and deserves respect from others, no matter who that person is. She is much luckier to have a mom around to teach her how to deal with such things when she is old enough (and ten is far from old enough). I did not have that. I want her to go to college, get a career started and all that. Not lose her virginity at 14 like I did. I don't want her raising kids and having a husband while going to college if she doesn't have to. I want both of my children to make the best out of their lives and then think about settling down. I want them both to know that they are wonderful, bright people who deserve respect not just from themselves, but from other people. Honestly, do you (the general you, not you specifically las) respect a girl or woman who dresses like a hooker? Do you respect a person (man, woman, boy or girl) that has greasy hair, baggy holey jeans, their ass hanging out of their pants and/or cleavage so low its almost like wearing no shirt at all? I don't think many people do. It is about self respect and showing that you deserve respect. That one's brain is better than one's body and should be used to get things and the body should not. Appearances.
Original Post by caloricat:
Original Post by roxysparkles:
Don't get mad at me because you can't control your erections!
Psst. No man can control his erection Rox...it's a biological response...like perspiration or hairs standing up on your neck. Just trust me...I actually have had one (a penis) for longer than you've been alive...I kinda know how it works.
Weren't you there with your daughter?
No. Wait, yes. And that made it more angering because I wanted to have quality time with my family, not feel like I had to put horse blinders on to keep from being aroused.
I dunno. The last place on earth I'd think about a guy getting a stiffy was at a water park chock full of children.
I agree. Which is why children of the age where they are developmentally similar to sexual beings shouldn't be walking around in their panties and bra in public.
You do realize that the average age a girl loses her virginity (and is engaging as a sexual being) is dropping...I believe it's now 15. ANd you DO realize that it is only in recent times and in primarily Western cultures that it is uncommon for women to be married only after they've become "legal". Women as recent as 100 years ago were married once they had their first period.
Like Marriage...trying to force men to act against their biological nature to preserve a societal boundry that society has created based on it's consensus moral opinion of the time...is always gonna be a struggle.
As anyone that deals with addictions or psychological issues knows all too well...people can't be held accountable for their thoughts. They can only be accountable for their actions. If I see a 16 year old at the beach (could be 14, could be 23) and I sexually fantasize about her or become aroused...that is a natural response to a visual stimulus. A visual stimulus that she (and her parents) have decided to provide to men. Now, if I take a camera pic or proposition her or assault her...I've made a choice to act inappropriately. I own that behavior...but I cannot held accountable for my thoughts. There are many thoughts I wish I didn't have. Many painful things all of us would like to forget. But holding me accountable for finding a 16 year old in her underwear attractive is no better than telling an abuse victim that they just "get over it already and stop thinking about it".
That's not right and that's not fair.
CCat wrote: "I agree. Which is why children of the age where they are developmentally similar to sexual beings shouldn't be walking around in their panties and bra in public."
No. You're missing my point entirely. If that girl wants to wear a bikini, so be it! YOU need to control YOURSELF. I'm sorry that you can't hold back your boners yet to be able to see a girl who is attractive - no matter what age - in a bathing suit!
Can someone with a penis (besides cat) PLEASE comment on how hard it is to actually control your penis when you see an attractive person in revealing clothing? thanks.
Leornia: you can't control your childrens' sexual development with their clothing.
This is exactly my point, Rox.
Women and young girls should freely embrace their sexuality and feel no shame about the normal and ordinary urge to experiment and find pleasure. Right?
But, a man, with his well documented sexual response to visual stimulus, is gross and should "control himself"?
For god's sake, teaching your daughters that men's sexuality is perverted isn't exactly doing them any favors either.
Original Post by caloricat:
As anyone that deals with addictions or psychological issues knows all too well...people can't be held accountable for their thoughts. They can only be accountable for their actions. If I see a 16 year old at the beach (could be 14, could be 23) and I sexually fantasize about her or become aroused...that is a natural response to a visual stimulus. A visual stimulus that she (and her parents) have decided to provide to men. Now, if I take a camera pic or proposition her or assault her...I've made a choice to act inappropriately. I own that behavior...but I cannot held accountable for my thoughts. There are many thoughts I wish I didn't have. Many painful things all of us would like to forget. But holding me accountable for finding a 16 year old in her underwear attractive is no better than telling an abuse victim that they just "get over it already and stop thinking about it".That's not right and that's not fair.
I agree with this in part, however as you own your actions you also own your reactions to the physical stimulus...as an adult, and a decent responsible person it is your duty to distract yourself and stop the inappropriate reaction.
Just as it is not acceptable behaviour to sit and wank yourself off on the beach it is not acceptable to get a boner at an underage girl.
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
I'm sure you'll be as understanding and accepting of this sort of attention from older men directed at your daughter when she's 12, 14, and so forth.
But see...THATs the point Nomo. What I originally said was I DON'T think it's appropriate for a girl of that age to be walking around in their underwear at the beach. Because I KNOW men. Unlike you and Roxy who ASSUME knowledge of peni and the sort...I have years and years of DIRECT KNOWLEDGE on what men think and what causes erections.
If women knew what other guys in their grade thought about them in middle school...every girl in 8th grade would drop out of school.
I'm not saying I "like the idea"...I HATE the idea of my child being exposed to that. BUT...that's why I want to take steps to limit it. Not just throw my hands in the air and say, "Well...if a girl wants to be topless let her be topless...and if a guy glares at her, he's a pervert chop off his unit and be done with it."
So far the male response has been rather consistent on this. I'm sure a sycophant will come running in if you make a plea...and talk about how they only get erections when a girl shows them her mind...but that's nonsense.
I have to confess that I'm at a bit of a loss... if a 16 year old girl is at the beach in her bikini and she is half way attractive and men of all ages watch her... and become aroused what is the problem? They aren't touching her... they don't know she is 16... for all they know she could be 23...who cares if they get an erection? Not the 16 year old...she's already walked by...the dude is gonna be uncomfortable 'cause you know... erection in public...they don't blame her (at least none of my male friends blame the girls)... they do however often blame their wives...but that is an entirely different issue.
She put on the bikini knowing full well that she was going to draw attention to herself...and that's fine. She is allowed to wear what she wants as long as she understands that there are consequences to people seeing her in her bikini.
People are allowed to think anything they want... they are not allowed to act on anything they want. I am a woman of a certain age and I like to watch the smooth young men running and skateboarding without their shirts on... some of them are young enough to be my kids but I like to look. Does that make me a perv? Just because you can't see my arousal at all the manly beefsteak walking around doesn't make it any less real. I'm not touching them but I'm having grotesquely inappropriate thoughts about some of them...hell even if I was their age they might be a little uncomfortable with some of my...'thoughts'...
It's totally wrong to hold men to a different standard. They can look... they can't touch, they can't whistle or say nasty things but they can look...and then go home and do unspeakable things to their wives/girlfriends/friends with benefits.
And again with this idea that young adults - 15-16 and above... are these delicate flowers to be protected...they aren't and you do them a disservice by treating them as such.
Just read the rest of this thread and O. M. G. I agree with Ccat (and Jules).
As someone who grew up with overprotective, overbearing parents, all it does is **** you up.
There is nothing sexual about a normal one piece bathing suit, especially if it's designed for children/tweens (flowers, disney characters, movie characters - think twilight). Those are age appropriate. Solid colors and ruffles for older teens. Once they turn 18 they can wear whatever they want.
The more my parent's tried to shelter me, the more I went out of my way to learn things I was being sheltered from.
As for the boner controlling thing: I think it can be difficult sometimes for guys. Even if they try not to look at it sexually, stuff will still activate. Women have it easier because if we're aroused, for the most part, no one will ever know.
Then again, I've never seen a half naked guy and got aroused so from my point of view it seems like it would be easy. I could easily become aroused from a hot half naked dude, I just choose not to. I just don't allow specific thoughts to cross my mind.
Original Post by caloricat:
As anyone that deals with addictions or psychological issues knows all too well...people can't be held accountable for their thoughts. They can only be accountable for their actions. If I see a 16 year old at the beach (could be 14, could be 23) and I sexually fantasize about her or become aroused...that is a natural response to a visual stimulus. A visual stimulus that she (and her parents) have decided to provide to men. Now, if I take a camera pic or proposition her or assault her...I've made a choice to act inappropriately. I own that behavior...but I cannot held accountable for my thoughts. There are many thoughts I wish I didn't have. Many painful things all of us would like to forget. But holding me accountable for finding a 16 year old in her underwear attractive is no better than telling an abuse victim that they just "get over it already and stop thinking about it".
That's not right and that's not fair.
Are you saying that you can't control yourself from having sexual fantasies about minors?
How do other men do it? I don't normally see boner city when I'm at the beach.
Original Post by lysistrata:
This is exactly my point, Rox.
Women and young girls should freely embrace their sexuality and feel no shame about the normal and ordinary urge to experiment and find pleasure. Right?
But, a man, with his well documented sexual response to visual stimulus, is gross and should "control himself"?
For god's sake, teaching your daughters that men's sexuality is perverted isn't exactly doing them any favors either.
This. I really feel for guys sometimes. :/
I know there are women who want to wear a bikini because they feel sexy in one and it's for them only. I get that. But, unfortunately, unless you have your own pool or private beach... other people are gonna see and interpret your bikini in their own way.
I wonder if the invention of the baggy swim shorts was to help a guy hide his embarrassing boner at the beach? ;P
