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Should a pre-op Transexual (wo)man be allowed in women's change rooms?


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The story is here.

In a nutshell, a pre-op transexual (still had a penis) was denied access to the women's change room in a gym.  The gym owner is now facing the Human Rights Tribunal.

Personally, I don't think she should have been allowed in the women's change room and I hope the tribunal agrees with me.  When I heard the story the first thing I thought of was weirdo men pretending to be transexual just to be allowed into change rooms.

Your thoughts?

142 Replies (last)
Original Post by andie-joe:

#58 how can you be born with the wrong ones? you're born with what you've got because that's what the ingredients came up with. 

It's not like you put an order in before birth. I'm not enitrely happy with what i got, i asked for bigger boobs!......

...but if i started going under the knife to change it all to what I want then i would be criticised for being vain.

they get these ops because of the emotional effect that it is having on them, the things i'm not happy with have an emotional effect on me.

it's no different! 

edited..

 It is totally different. Imagine being born a woman but mentally you've always felt like a man. That's hugely different than just randomly having plastic surgery because you want bigger boobs. It's not about self-esteem. It's about being comfortable in your own skin... feeling whole, like a complete person.

No it's not. There are some people in the UK who get plastic surgery done on the NHS because the size of the boobs, or whatever makes them feel unfeminine, and is having a huge emotional impact on their life. The NHS in some cases offer to pay to get the work done so that the person will feel comfortable with who they are and how they look and feel a self-worth.

That is no different they look in the mirror and hate what they see.

 

 

We'll just agree to disagree.

I wouldnt have a problem with him/her changing in the women's locker room.  And truth be told, I wouldn t have a problem with one locker room, except that most men are not the cleanest creatures.

You can bet this is going to get a lot of press on both sides of the fence.

#63 OK...I'm good with that.

andie-joe-

You are so completely wrong and ignorant of this subject it's just sad! I wish people were more educated so they weren't so close minded. The brain works in amazing and confusing ways. This is not penis envy, it's about being forced to be something you are not. Wanting bigger boobs is different than waking up every day with a penis when you feel  you truly shouldn't have one. It's not a want it's a need. People commit suicide over this.

I would have no problem changing in a changing room with her. I would be in a changing room, I'm sure she would too. If you are worried about people looking at you while you are changing, it's kind of stupid to change in the wide open locker room where other people are. Go to a stall. She has every right to be there as I do.

Original Post by andie-joe:

No it's not. There are some people in the UK who get plastic surgery done on the NHS because the size of the boobs, or whatever makes them feel unfeminine, and is having a huge emotional impact on their life. The NHS in some cases offer to pay to get the work done so that the person will feel comfortable with who they are and how they look and feel a self-worth.

That is no different they look in the mirror and hate what they see.

yeah, andie, you're completely missing the boat on this one.  gender isn't about how a person looks; it's about who they are.  it's a huge factor in identity.  rather than comparing it to cosmetic issues like "I wish my boobs were bigger," try to think to it in terms of looking in the mirror and seeing a complete stranger.

i mean, come on.  being girl or boy, woman or man, is such a huge part of how we define ourselves from the moment we become self-aware.  try to imagine being told your entire life that you're a boy/man, and knowing that everyone else is wrong about that.  everyone in your life, everyone you meet, friends, family, and strangers, look at you and see a man; and you know that what they're seeing isn't who you are.

gawd.  imagine trying to get through adolescence with that.  nobody would choose that.

Original Post by courtneylauren:

trhawley- i'd would not feel comfortable changing in front of a group of men, that's why. men gawk and women shouldn't have to worry about someone scrutenizing their body as they change clothes.

 I know you wouldn't be, I wouldn't be either because of what we have been taught to accept as normal.  But why?  All these comments about changing rooms being dangerous places is a result of our societies repressed sexuality.  I think perhaps the world would be a better place if we ditched the repression.

Original Post by ignayshus:

Original Post by peaches0405:

I'm actually conflicted on this issue.

I see both sides of it.  On one side, you don't want a bunch of men dressing up as women "claiming" to be pre-op transgender just so they can see a woman naked.  But then part of me thinks, "but how many straight men would actually do that?"

Then part of me thinks, "ok well whatever sex they relate to the most should be the room that they go into"

I'm a bit confused, myself.

That kind of logic could be correctly construed to force lesbians to use the men's room and gay men using the women's room.

Outties to the right, Innies to the left imho. Keep it simple.

That's not really accurate because it goes by the erroneous assumption that gays and lesbians feel like they are the other gender. But as for actual transexuals, I can see both sides. I personally don't care if a transgendered person is in the women's locker room since the ones I've known DO genuinely identify with the opposite gender from which they were born. But I suppose the question would be how do you prove they are transsexual ad not simply a transvestite man? (Other than most transvestites I've encountered dress up at home or for social occasions, and for mundane things like going to the gym would probably just where their guy clothes and not deal with all this.)

#66 ha ha ha ha there is always one! do you wish you were the opposite sex? because if not then you are as ignorant as me only those who have those conflicts know what it feels like!

And clearly you don't recognise flippancy......

 

#67 pg i know i'm way off i was just fed up. I can't imagine what it feels like to look in the mirror and want to be a man because i don't have those conflicts so i wouldn't even pretend to understand what they are going through.

 

andie-joe-Nope I love the sex I am but I do have friends who are transsexuals who tell me how it feels, so actually, I'm no where near as ignorant as you.Laughing

You not being a transsexual is not what makes you ignorant it's your unwillingness to accept a situation for what it is... Actually, never mind, you not being a transsexual or knowing any does make you ignorant of the topic, your unwillingness just makes you stubborn and juvenile.

 

 

 

How wonderful.  I love when threads turn into petty name calling.

I'm sorry, it's just annoying. In my defence, I did not call her a name. Doo Doo Head is a petty name...

By the way, I love your journal entry on the top 10 Douchbags of 2008. Funny!

 

Original Post by andie-joe:

 

#67 pg i know i'm way off i was just fed up. I can't imagine what it feels like to look in the mirror and want to be a man because i don't have those conflicts so i wouldn't even pretend to understand what they are going through.

 

It has nothing to do with having to be in the same situation to understand. You can research this issue so you can try to understand. If your mom dies, I don't understand what it's like to be in that situation but I can be empathetic to your situation. 

You're just reducing this topic by comparing it to something as trivial as breast implants. 

Original Post by keo187:

andie-joe-Nope I love the sex I am but I do have friends who are transsexuals who tell me how it feels, so actually, I'm no where near as ignorant as you.Laughing

You not being a transsexual is not what makes you ignorant it's your unwillingness to accept a situation for what it is... Actually, never mind, you not being a transsexual or knowing any does make you ignorant of the topic, your unwillingness just makes you stubborn and juvenile.

 

 

 

I just love it when people claim to know how someone feels when they don't have a clue, a bit like a man saying to a woman who is giving birth "oh I know the pain you're feeling"! someone telling you how they feel doesn't mean you know how they feel. As for me being juvenile? I'm not the one making sweeping judgments on someone I don't know, or getting so easily rattled because I don't agree with what someone has said Laughing. And at least I admit my ignorance on how they feel.

 

#74 For me there are more stressing things going on in the planet to concern myself with and to research. The most I have done is ask my gay friends if they have these conflicts and would want to get the op done.....they said no!

Is plastic surgery not a op to alter/ remove/ add to a persons body? It only reduces it to trivia if you only see a boob job as a vanity op because the majority who get it done it is for vanity reasons. However a little research into those who have serious issues about their appearance would reveal that it is far from being trivial. So I will not dismiss the feelings of the minority who get boob jobs done in a bid to ease their own deep self loathing.

 

 

Again, being gay and being transsexual is not the same thing.

The problem is that if the trans-sexual was allowed in you know sooner or later some weirdo who just wants to watch women would claim to be a trans-sexual waiting for surgery and would be lurking around changing rooms.

Then on the owners side ...as someone pointed out...the women who didn't agree would stop going there and he would lose business. So as much as we want all our freedoms in this country where do we draw the line guaranteeing an individuals freedom at the expense of the majority? Easy to debate when its something simple like speech, protesting, etc but tough to debate when it involves changing rooms.

I have seen business where there are women's rooms...men's rooms...and unisex rooms. Cost more but a variation on this could be an option.

Original Post by alibsam:

Again, being gay and being transsexual is not the same thing.

i'm well aware of that, but i thought they may have a better idea than me....

and now i am done.

Original Post by andie-joe:

Original Post by alibsam:

Again, being gay and being transsexual is not the same thing.

i'm well aware of that, but i thought they may have a better idea than me....

the bottom line is this: transexual people are no different from anyone else, except that their anatomy doesn't match their identity.  andie, you don't have to ask your gay friends; just ask yourself.  how would you feel about being expected to use the men's change room at the gym?

i'm not trying to offer a solution; i'm just asking how you would feel about that.

in terms of safety, a transexual woman in a men's changeroom is at a whole lot more risk than the other women would be with the same transexual woman in their changeroom.

as to the issue of predators pretending to be transexuals to get into the women's change rooms - come on.  security isn't that tight.  if a sexual predator wants to get in there, he's going to get in, and he's probably not going to bother to put on a dress to do it.  allowing transexuals to use the change room where they feel comfortable isn't going to increase that risk one bit.

In general ( and remember I said in general) I think Americans are wayyyy too hung up on body parts, nudity and sexuality.  What could be more beautiful than a well toned body?  Are we really afraid that some deep dark nasty sexual predator is going to lurk in the ladies dressing room?  Hogwash.  I believe the poor soul just wants to be treated like a lady.  It must be difficult enough to be a transsexual before, during and after the operation....tough road to hoe.

142 Replies (last)
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