Scientific Proof of God
There's a lively debate going on in the forums right now contrasting science with religion. I've already stated my case, and have also stated my opposition to Creationists trying to use pseudo-science to support their belief system.
Once again I have to state that I am not against religion. It's not the path I chose, but this by no means invalidates your own path.
But I live by the credo that a faith unquestioned is a faith undeserved. I am against close-mindedness in general. Specifically the aspect of religion that I am against is the idea that the Bible is 100% accurate and truthful because it is the word of God, and cannot be questioned.
So I've been researching. Strolling through youtube, trolling through webpages, trying to find any scientific facts that hold up under scrutiny and can be used to support Creationism (or alternately debunk Evolution). I've been trying to find something that isn't smoke and mirrors, something that isn't twisted pseudo-science taken completely out of context.
So far I've come up with 3.
1) The Big Bang. What caused it? What came before? There are no scientific answers to these questions. "God did it" is as valid an answer as "everything that ever was and will be was compressed down to a single point that had no form or shape or size and then suddenly exploded outward, even though outward didn't exist until after the explosion, since nothing existed before the big bang (and technically nothing didn't exist either)."
2) Abiogenesis. The fact that life arose from nothing. From the time that the Earth cooled enough to support life to the time of the earliest fossils is about 350 million years. Somewhere during that 350 million years we went from no life to life. The first cell arose (and I use arose and not evolved because it's impossible for something to "evolve" from nothing. Technically evolution didn't start until AFTER the first cell arose). This is a feat which has never been replicated, a feat which is now considered impossible (although amino acids have been made under conditions replicating the early Earth these amino acids have never organized themselves into a self-replicating organism). So how did it happen? God did it is as good an answer as any.
3) The fact that so far as we can tell we are alone in this universe. Given that Abiogenesis is possible, why aren't there more planets with life? Theoretically both Mars and Venus had environments similar to what existed on primitive Earth, and theoretically life could have arisen there. But it didn't (or possibly it did but it didn't evolve fast enough to keep up with the changing environment). While I'm not saying that there's no other life out there on any of the billions and billions of planets surrounding the billions and billions of starts in the billions and billions of galaxies in our universe, I am saying that as of yet there is no PROOF that life exists outside of the Earth. So far as we know we are alone. What makes us so special? God is as good an answer as any.
And that's it. I can poke holes in any other "fact" that Creationist bring up, but I can't argue those 3.
Random's right. There is no "massive outpouring of energy" when someone dies. As a trained (though not practicing) biologist I can account for all the energy. I know the mechanics of living systems, death and decay, all the cold harsh facts.
But because the facts are cold and harsh I won't disabuse anyone of the notion that when you die this "energy" need to go somewhere, that it cannot be destroyed. I know it's false, the energy doesn't actually leave or transcend, but I also know it's comforting to believe that it does, so carry on believing it.
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
dark energy is not well understood, primarily because we have no way to observe it
It's not well understood because it's hypothetical - right now its scientific status is on the level of the Higgs Boson.
I think that random and knowan might have misunderstood bunny's statement regarding a massive outpouring of energy.
I don't think she meant like, an invisible explosion or something.
She was talking about the natural energy the body contains. If the body is cremated, there is some energy produced from that, I assume?
If the body is buried, it becomes caloric energy for many organisms, isn't that right?
I think sometimes, non-believers are extremely willing to project what they think believers think based on what they've heard in the past, or on assumptions that make sense to them. (ETA: Like, they think believers assign supernatural qualities to things that are simply unknown. Or they think that believers must be illogical or nonsensical, so they think a nonsensical interpretation is the one the believer meant.)
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
I think that random and knowan might have misunderstood bunny's statement regarding a massive outpouring of energy.
I don't think she meant like, an invisible explosion or something.
She was talking about the natural energy the body contains. If the body is cremated, there is some energy produced from that, I assume?
If the body is buried, it becomes caloric energy for many organisms, isn't that right?
I think sometimes, non-believers are extremely willing to project what they think believers think based on what they've heard in the past, or on assumptions that make sense to them.
I didn't assume she was talking about an invisible explosion. I first defined energy then wondered if she meant something different or not. She hasn't been back to clarify so I've been asking kathy about her opinion.
But if you are correct, I still think claiming a small amount of body heat or being consumed by fire or organisms is 'a massive output of energy' is a bit off.
The dark energy you guys mentioned, is this the same dark energy that some theorize is fuelling the acceleration of the expansion of the universe?
I haven't measured how much energy the body contains.
But I would imagine that whether the amount of energy is massive or not is relative, and depends on what you compare it to. Compared to the sun, no, not massive. Compared to an acorn, maybe massive.
What is it that you want to know?
Why someone believes something without evidence?
You yourself explained to Freda that some people have had transcendent experiences, or other unexplained experiences that only they have access to.
What more do you want to know about it?
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
I haven't measured how much energy the body contains.
But I would imagine that whether the amount of energy is massive or not is relative, and depends on what you compare it to. Compared to the sun, no, not massive. Compared to an acorn, maybe massive.
What is it that you want to know?
Why someone believes something without evidence?
You yourself explained to Freda that some people have had transcendent experiences, or other unexplained experiences that only they have access to.
What more do you want to know about it?
i love hearing about what people believe and how they came to believe these things, if they had some sort of experience, dream, feeling or what. Some people honestly believe something simply because they were told it's true but I don't think that's true for gator or bunny, so I like to question them to better understand. And with this sort of stuff it can get confusing, especially how people use terms like god and energy...I don't see a problem with pinpointing what they actually mean.
When I talk about spiritual energy, I'm not talking about natural physical energy that can be measured. In other cultures, there are different words for spiritual energy - qi or chi, prana, and so forth.
Certain martial arts train the body and mind to focus on this energy to harness it and make it available to the practitioner.
Some people believe this energy is like the essence of a living thing - what distinguishes it from everything else - what connects its mind and its body - what connects it to the rest of existence
Spiritual energy has never been empirically demonstrated to exist, but it has been experienced by people, so it's not likely to fade away as a concept as long as people keep experiencing it.
Yep. I have to learn to just shut up and wait for Nomo to 'splain stuff. :)
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
When I talk about spiritual energy, I'm not talking about natural physical energy that can be measured. In other cultures, there are different words for spiritual energy - qi or chi, prana, and so forth.
Certain martial arts train the body and mind to focus on this energy to harness it and make it available to the practitioner.
Some people believe this energy is like the essence of a living thing - what distinguishes it from everything else - what connects its mind and its body - what connects it to the rest of existence
Spiritual energy has never been empirically demonstrated to exist, but it has been experienced by people, so it's not likely to fade away as a concept as long as people keep experiencing it.
Could this spiritual energy be something internal and something created by the human brain?
Kathy,
we definitely need to tag team this!
:D
My responses are lousy with metaphors. ;P
Original Post by randomv3:
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
When I talk about spiritual energy, I'm not talking about natural physical energy that can be measured. In other cultures, there are different words for spiritual energy - qi or chi, prana, and so forth.
Certain martial arts train the body and mind to focus on this energy to harness it and make it available to the practitioner.
Some people believe this energy is like the essence of a living thing - what distinguishes it from everything else - what connects its mind and its body - what connects it to the rest of existence
Spiritual energy has never been empirically demonstrated to exist, but it has been experienced by people, so it's not likely to fade away as a concept as long as people keep experiencing it.
Could this spiritual energy be something internal and something created by the human brain?
This doesn't sound like you want to understand; this sounds like you want to attribute some natural explanation even though scientific experiments have never been able to prove that it even exists.
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
Original Post by randomv3:
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
When I talk about spiritual energy, I'm not talking about natural physical energy that can be measured. In other cultures, there are different words for spiritual energy - qi or chi, prana, and so forth.
Certain martial arts train the body and mind to focus on this energy to harness it and make it available to the practitioner.
Some people believe this energy is like the essence of a living thing - what distinguishes it from everything else - what connects its mind and its body - what connects it to the rest of existence
Spiritual energy has never been empirically demonstrated to exist, but it has been experienced by people, so it's not likely to fade away as a concept as long as people keep experiencing it.
Could this spiritual energy be something internal and something created by the human brain?
This doesn't sound like you want to understand; this sounds like you want to attribute some natural explanation even though scientific experiments have never been able to prove that it even exists.
I'm asking you if you think it's an option. KG makes it sound like she thinks it could be a natural phenomenon but that it's external.
I have had experiences that suggest it is external.
I agree with KG that it's possible that "supernatural" is only that because we lack the ability to measure or observe with our present technology.
It's possible.
Not saying that's definitely the case - I have no idea.
There are physical effects in the brains (and bodies) of people having spiritual experiences.
They've done brain scans of Buddhist monks during meditation and observed changes in activity in the brain.
I don't know if they've been able to do brain scans of people practicing Qi Gong, (don't think so, unless they can do brain scans on people who are moving about) but if they could, it might show unusual brain activity in people who are manipulating Qi with their hands.
Is it caused or created by the brain? I can't answer that. It feels like it involves energy outside of my body.
But if you prefer to think that spiritual experiences are caused or created by something in the brain... I guess that's up to you. I might think the same way if I hadn't experienced spiritual energies. The line of thought makes me slightly uncomfortable, because if it's caused by something in the brain, then it could be classified as a disorder or mental illness, and obviously, I don't think I'm mentally ill for having spiritual experiences (though I was mentally ill when I was experiencing clinical depression).
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
I agree with KG that it's possible that "supernatural" is only that because we lack the ability to measure or observe with our present technology.
It's possible.
Not saying that's definitely the case - I have no idea.
There are physical effects in the brains (and bodies) of people having spiritual experiences.
They've done brain scans of Buddhist monks during meditation and observed changes in activity in the brain.
I don't know if they've been able to do brain scans of people practicing Qi Gong, (don't think so, unless they can do brain scans on people who are moving about) but if they could, it might show unusual brain activity in people who are manipulating Qi with their hands.
Is it caused or created by the brain? I can't answer that. It feels like it involves energy outside of my body.
But if you prefer to think that spiritual experiences are caused or created by something in the brain... I guess that's up to you. I might think the same way if I hadn't experienced spiritual energies. The line of thought makes me slightly uncomfortable, because if it's caused by something in the brain, then it could be classified as a disorder or mental illness, and obviously, I don't think I'm mentally ill for having spiritual experiences (though I was mentally ill when I was experiencing clinical depression).
I'm pretty sure right now brain scans have to be done while staying still.
I'm not sure why it would be classified as a disorder or mental illness when it's a feeling and relatively common. It seems like it would just be a phenomenon, like out of body experiences.
Have you heard of the god helmet? The inventor claims it can induce spiritual experiences in some people, other's say it shows that these experiences come from the brain. Either way, I wish I could try it on.
Think of your body as an iPod. It contains your music and apps (thoughts and memories). It has a battery that need to be recharged. You recharge your body by eating.
But eventually over time the battery doesn’t charge as efficiently as it used to. Your iPod used to run for days on a single charge. Now it can barely last 8 hours. It’s getting older.
Eventually the battery stops working at all.
Your music (thoughts and memories) are still in the iPod, but without energy they can’t be accessed. Without at least a trickle charge the iPods memory starts to decay.
The memory needs an electrical charge from the battery in order to maintain itself. Without that charge it can’t maintain itself and the memory starts to decay.
But the music doesn’t leave the iPod. It doesn’t transcend. It just breaks down. You can’t say that it leaves the iPod to travel back to iTunes where it came from. It doesn’t hang around outside the iPod like a ghost. It takes energy to maintain the music in memory, and without that energy it just decays away.
It’s not a perfect analogy. Decomposers don’t break down iPods into their constituent components, feeding off the energy that was used to build the iPod in the first place. And an iPods flash RAM doesn’t start to decay immediately after the battery stops, since the Flash RAM itself can hold a charge for quite a long time. But you get the point.
I don't think that my thoughts and memories leave my body when I die. (Can't say that I ever thought they would stay there in my dead body either.)
And that's not what a soul is either, in my understanding.
As for this "tapping into universal energy", surprisingly science has found that it is possible. I don't pretend to understand it, it's all quantum baby, but it is possible to "sync" yourself with something outside your body. It's possible to affect this outside force (and conceivably have this outside force affect you?).
Please note the use of "affect" instead of "effect", although "effect" may be possible as well. Like I said, I don't really understand it all that well. Quantum is some freaky **** man.
