Vegetarian
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Canine teeth and genetically meat eaters


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I am a vegan and have been for almost a year-ish now (i think?) and though I have done a lot of reading/research on the subject and am confident in my own reasons for this lifestyle choice, I never really know how to respond when people say that we have canine teeth and, as a species, are naturally meat eaters.  

I disagree with modern farming practices, but wonder whether if I raised my own animals would be OK with eating their dairy/eggs, or even slaughtering them and eating flesh?  I don't think I would, but what do YOU guys feel is the argument against humans being 'natural' meat (or dairy/egg) eaters? And if you raised your own cattle humanely, would you eat the products/flesh?

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Hello brittypoo, i know this is probably a day late and a dollar short but I only recently ran across this site. From what research I have done, information I have collected on this subject for years now; I have come to one basic conclusion. We are all omnivores yes, but haven’t you ever wondered why some people crave a steak and others a salad? Some look at meat and go yuk, while others look at spinach or bustle sprouts and go yum? Why some can be a vegan and not have any issue with it while others just plan could not even consider the idea? And of course your question about Canine teeth, why some have more pronounced than others? Additionally, have you ever wondered why some people can swear by a diet or way of eating and then the next person say, it does not work at all and is a bunch of bunk? Why do some people say no carb’s works great, others say just dump the sugar, some say be a vegan your problems are solved, etc..

Before I start in any detail I will make a quick disclaimer, this is what I have found over the years as well as personal experience. And whether you believe in evolution or anything else this applies without conflict. Also consider we are all different; different bodies and each slightly unique which presents a problem when talking about food, diets, and eating habits’.  Now consider the one basic thing we all share, blood types.

Consider back in our early days of hunter gatherer which could have been due to evolution from primates or creation, we were already human does not matter. There was one blood type. Type O, this is distinctively the oldest blood type and that is simply science that we already know. Type O blood can handle a high protein diet, and thrives on meat. As our species moved around the globe to different environments and geographical areas their eating habits changed. Humans are highly adaptive and to could easily cope with the new diets of these individuals. The body had to change to support the new foods. This change was, you guessed it, new blood types. The next blood type to spawn from that was B, which thrives on milk / dairy and grains. Imagine that – farming, no more need to hunt. The next phase was A which thrives on fruits and vegetables, this blood type does not do well with Dairy, nor does type O. Additionally, type A does not do well with meat. Generally, (again not always, due to personal preference but as far as what is best for our bodies) you will find that type O people prefer meat, type B prefer dairy and grains, type A prefer veggies. There is a deeper answer for this which lies in our immune system and is directly related to blood type. I am linking the web site of a DR. that has spent both his lifetime and his father’s lifetime on this subject. I have these books as well as so many others; I can tell you that this style of eating works really well. I can also tell you I have tired almost everything you can imagine as well as a lot of bookwork on this subject myself. All I suggest is read this with an open mind and if you think you can try it for a few months and see how you feel, do so, and then make up your own mind about it. No pushing, no nagging, just see what you think and decide for yourself.

http://www.dadamo.com/

Consider back in our early days of hunter gatherer which could have been due to evolution from primates or creation, we were already human does not matter. There was one blood type. Type O, this is distinctively the oldest blood type and that is simply science that we already know. Type O blood can handle a high protein diet, and thrives on meat. As our species moved around the globe to different environments and geographical areas their eating habits changed. Humans are highly adaptive and to could easily cope with the new diets of these individuals. The body had to change to support the new foods. This change was, you guessed it, new blood types. The next blood type to spawn from that was B, which thrives on milk / dairy and grains. Imagine that – farming, no more need to hunt. The next phase was A which thrives on fruits and vegetables, this blood type does not do well with Dairy, nor does type O. Additionally, type A does not do well with meat. Generally, (again not always, due to personal preference but as far as what is best for our bodies) you will find that type O people prefer meat, type B prefer dairy and grains, type A prefer veggies.

Wow, this pretty much blew my mind. I am a type A vegetarian, who never enjoyed meat even before cutting it out. My aunt is also a type A vegetarian. My sister is like my total opposite on food, and prefers meat to anything else. She's type O.

   Although it seems to be true for the few people I can think of off the top of my head, the website seems to be a bit on the sketchy-fad-diet side. But it is all very interesting, and I would love to know more about it. Perhaps some polling is in order?

   To britty, I would say that we were designed to eat meat that we hunted. A deer that runs around eating grass and things it was meant to eat is chock full of good protein and vitamins. A cow that lives in a cramped, poo filled feed lot eating corn and other animal parts is NOT natural. Our ancestors would never eat something like a modern burger. So I personally think it would be okay for someone to raise their own cow humanely while allowing it to graze naturally to eventually eat it. I also feel strongly that if you are going to eat an animal, you have to personally kill it in order to truly understand that you ARE taking a life to feed yourself. Don't hide from or ignore the harsh truth of what makes up your dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets.

As someone pointed out to me once, our canines are extremely wimpy when compared to other omnivores/carnivores.  Look at a dog, a gorilla, a cat, etc and see how large their canines are relative to their other teeth.

Then go stand next to a cow/pig, and imagine trying to bite through their hide.  Our tiny canines aren't enough to bite through the tough hide of a wild animal.  If a higher power meant for us to be eating meat, it could have offered us some scary mandibles. 

So if someone is saying we have canines for food, that may be so, but only because humans had different methods of killing animals than biting through their neck.  These different tools for finding food now allow us to avoid killing animals all together.  I consider being a vegetarian more in keeping with our ancestry than eating meat at this point.

Original Post by dantenox:

As someone pointed out to me once, our canines are extremely wimpy when compared to other omnivores/carnivores.  Look at a dog, a gorilla, a cat, etc and see how large their canines are relative to their other teeth.

Gorillas are actually quite similar to us in that (and many other ways as we're both primates obviously) they have canine teeth, but they are mainly herbivores, supplementing their diet of fruit and plants with the occassional termite or ant. 

Original Post by steffsheff:

Original Post by dantenox:

As someone pointed out to me once, our canines are extremely wimpy when compared to other omnivores/carnivores.  Look at a dog, a gorilla, a cat, etc and see how large their canines are relative to their other teeth.

Gorillas are actually quite similar to us in that (and many other ways as we're both primates obviously) they have canine teeth, but they are mainly herbivores, supplementing their diet of fruit and plants with the occassional termite or ant. 

That wasn't really my point, I was just trying to point out how small human canines are compared to a lot of other mammals. At least my canines don't look like this:

http://klb.uwstout.edu/History/History.html

It just amuses me when people say "we have canines because we were meant to eat meat!".  Uh, our canines are practically nonexistent compared to a lot of the omni/carnivore animal world.

I know it wasn't your point, I just think it's interesting as well that even though Gorillas have canine teeth, that does not make them meat-eaters; much like in humanes, the presence of canine teeth (no matter how small or large) doesn't necessarily mean much at all.

Not sure what the science is that Darkon, etc.... is referring to... my own experience as someone with type O blood is that I have craved salads and fresh vegetables since I was a kid, and turned away from steaks when my friends were lusting after them...  just went out to dinner this evening with a friend who had Beef Wellington and wanted me to taste it (Ugh, no!), while I had the grilled  veggie panini....now, 50 years after rejecting the childhood steaks, still don't eat red meat and don't agree with this pseudo science about blood types.  Some of us type O folks like animals alive!

I meant no offence catmurray I am simply pointing out what seems to be the general rule. There is always an exception to that rule, my brother is a type A and he prefers meat. All I am saying is regardless of your preference some things are going to be better for you than others according to what I was referring to in my last posting. All blood types should eat fruit and vegetables; no one gets out of that one. The real question is what is or is not best for your body and in what amounts; meaning which ones to eat or abstain from - that is what I meant. As far as science goes I was referring to the years and years of experience put into this particular concept as far as research goes. Although I have to admit it bucks the system in many ways so there are always negative reactions about these types of things. I have noticed a huge difference since I am giving it an honest go though, which is why I posted my former response, simply to share what is working for me and hopping it will be helpful or useful to someone else. Good luck all and keep losing the pounds…

I sure as hell don't have teeth that look ANYTHING like a dog, cat, lion, shark etc. That's what meat eating teeth look like. I would also be very disturbed if I saw anyone with teeth anything like that. None of my teeth are sharp or pointy.

Original Post by helloelloello:

I sure as hell don't have teeth that look ANYTHING like a dog, cat, lion, shark etc.

Why would you have teeth like them? they're all mostly carnivores, you evolved to be an omnivore. 

I understand the milk thing. Aren't we also the only animal to cook our food? Aren't we the only animal of our kind? It makes sense for other things to be different about us compared to other species as well.

My godmother believes in the blood type diet tremendously. She didn't know she had a gluten allergy until later in life and when she read the diet for her blood type, it was spot on.

 We're the animal smart enough to be able to do this.  We're also the only animal smart enough to be able to domesticate other animals to do our work for us.  And the only animal smart enough to domesticate animals to be available to feed us so that we no longer have to hunt for food.  This has allowed us to able to settle in one place and create cities.

 Amen to that!

Actually, other animals have domisticated animals, especially in the insect kingdom.  There's ants that farm aphids.  There's also leafcutter ants that will cut leaves and use them to create a mulch which they use to grow mould.  They don't actually eat the leaves, just use them to feed the mould, which they do eat.

All in all, there are animal diets out there that are incredibally more complex than ours.  Just think of how flowers and bees had to evolve together.

Both dogs and cats are carnivorous.  Dogs, however, can digest plant protien.  They're very ineffective at it, but it can be done.  It's actually possible to make a dog a vegetarian (though I'd never force and animal to act against it's nature like that).  Cats on the other hand, lack the enzymes to break down plant protien.  They will die on a vegetarian diet.  They can eat fruits and veggies, just like humand can eat grass, but they can't digest it and too much will make them sick.

Yes, we are the only animals that cook our food and drink other animals milk, but there are far weirder examples of dietary extreemes in nature.

And everyone who is talking about chasing and catching lean meat, have you every thought of Innuit/Eskimo?  They ate seal and whale almost exclusivly in the winter months, and those are very fatty animals.  Also, cows and pigs were domesticated over ten thousand years ago, before the first civilization (Summerian) and the first citys (also Summerian).  In other words, back in the cave-man days we drank milk and ate fatty foods.  We also rarely lived into our thirties.  For example the average Roman citizen lived to be 24.  The average "cave-man" died even younger.  Quite frankly, we didn't live long enough for heart disease and stroke to become a problem.  If you're dead at 30 then who cares if your diet will likely cause you to have a heart attack at 50?  We had kids at 14 because we were dead by our early twenties. 

Just to play the devils' advocate here, there appears to be a number of misconceptions about milk and eggs...

In the presence of a rooster and at least potentially viable mating scenarios, hens lay eggs. It's what they do. They lay them as fast as their bodies produce the eggs. If they did not lay eggs, I'm guessing they'd die because the egg would eventually rot inside them.

When I was growing up I lived on a small farm. We let our Banties (spelling?) roam free, and we used to find rotten eggs all over creation (and we were darn happy we found them, rather than step on them or sit on them or something.)

The biggest threat and most inhumane thing that happened to those chickens did not come from us. It was when a coyote, dog, or cat got to the chicken and mauled it or made a snack of it.

How going along behind the chickens and picking up the eggs can be inhumane is beyond me. Now, with the mammalian farm animals, things are different.

But even at that, take for example milk.

Most milk cows are not kept under nasty conditions. They are kept in exactly the kind of conditions they'd choose for themselves... It is after all the conditions most conducive to milk production, which is the point of the entire matter.

Not only that, but cows not only *will* give milk but they will get very upset if they are NOT milked. Once their udders are full at some point it becomes first uncomfortable, and soon thereafter painful, for them. They will continue to produce milk and if not milked they are in a world of hurt.

If you do not believe that, go hang out on a dairy farm near the milking barn starting sometime before sunrise, The cows will start lining up of their own choice to be milked, and at some point or if the farmer is late, will start to bellow (complain) because they *WANT* to be milked and at some point *MUST* be milked.

I don't say this to argue for or against any particular point of view vis-a-vis any form of veg*nism, but rather to point out that not all animal products are gotten through dire means and just because a product (eggs, dairy) comes from an animal does not mean it was gotten through some horrific process...

 

In the idyllic setting that you describe, there is nothing wrong with eggs.  That idyllic setting actually does exist on some farms, but that is a rarity.  For the most part, eggs that you get in the supermarket are factory farmed.  The chickens are kept in a tiny pen just big enough to contain them and stacked one on top of the other.  Because these pens are rarely cleaned and the cages on bottom get filthy they are feed chicken feed with added antibiotics to keep them alive.  The chickens never get to leave their pens until they are too old to lay, at which point they are turned into McNuggets or some other form of processed chicken (their meat is too tough to be sold as fresh chicken).

 

As for milk, it’s true that dairy cows are occasionally let out to pasture.  Their life is better, but in order to get that milk flowing they have to give birth.  In most dairy farms the cows are artificially inseminated.  The calves are kept for a few months and then are turned into milk-fed veal.  If the cows are milked daily then the milk will keep flowing for another 2 years before it starts drying up, after which they are artificially inseminated again and the cycle repeats.

 

And of course, in the USA the cows are given growth hormones to increase their milk production.  That growth hormone comes out in the milk along with other hormones that the cows naturally produce in response, and is passed on to the person who drinks it.

 

Plus they are also fed antibiotic-laced feed to increase their yield.  The anti-biotics wreak havoc on the environment.

There are a large number of dairies that do not use hormones and/or antibiotics, because that is what consumers are demanding. Same with chicken farms.

All people need do is read labels, and two things happen: The farmers who do not use hormones etc are rewarded, and those who do use hormones etc are given a disincentive to not do so. Duhh.

As to the cows having calves, what does that have to do with either their quality of life overall or the quality of the milk they produce (except that they need to give birth occasionally to lactate)??

It's a very dramatic retelling that fits your narrative but has nothing to do with what I said, nor the quality of the milk the cows produce or the quality of their lives overall.

And at least in my experience growing up around dairy farming and the many (and some very large) dairy farms I was around, dairy cows most definitely are let out to pasture daily and in fact spend a lot of their time in pasture. If not, they produce less milk or the farmer has to buy a lot more feed grain, both of which are antithetical to the entire exercise. Or at least that's what the dairy farmers I knew in my younger years told me.

As to the life of some chickens, yes some chickens are raised in such environments and some layers are kept in such conditions. And that is deplorable, we can all agree with that and I did not state otherwise.

However many are not and yet again, all the consumer has to do is read labels and that's that.

Look, I understand the larger narrative and point, which is the factory farming has gotten out of hand and etc, at least when weighed against certain standards/morals/ethics. The pendulum has swung too far towards the farm-products-as-factory-products end of the spectrum, at least in my opinion.

However my point also remains: Chickens lay eggs and cows give milk, it is in their nature and a quite natural part of their existence, and the products generated by those activities carried out in reasonable and humane circumstances are readily available.

It is not necessary to (mis/ab)use the animals according to certain standards/morals/ethics in order to get eggs or milk.

In other words, my point is that this narrative that considers all dairy products to be the result of heinous treatment of animals is just plain wrong. We all make the choices we do based on our own beliefs and I am not challenging that. But these blanket statements about eating dairy = heinous mistreatment of animals are just plain wrong.

Original Post by knowan:

In the idyllic setting that you describe, there is nothing wrong with eggs.  That idyllic setting actually does exist on some farms, but that is a rarity.  For the most part, eggs that you get in the supermarket are factory farmed.  The chickens are kept in a tiny pen just big enough to contain them and stacked one on top of the other.  Because these pens are rarely cleaned and the cages on bottom get filthy they are feed chicken feed with added antibiotics to keep them alive.  The chickens never get to leave their pens until they are too old to lay, at which point they are turned into McNuggets or some other form of processed chicken (their meat is too tough to be sold as fresh chicken).

They also frequently cut the beaks off chickens to keep them from pecking each other or themselves.  Male chicks are ground to bits to make feed after hatching, as can't lay eggs and their meat isn't as good.

Eldelo, if you really think no harm is done in egg or milk production and that animals want/like it, you are truly extremely misinformed.  99% of the animals raised for food come from factory farms.  Labels are virtually meaningless as they can be misleading, and there is little to no regulation, or even a true definition of phrases such as "cage free" or "free range".

I do agree with your statement that "all dairy products to be the result of heinous treatment of animals is just plain wrong."  (although I am pretty sure no one has said that!)  But, the only way to be certain you are not supporting cruelty is to obtain these products directly from a farm/farmer that you know and trust, or raise it yourself, neither of which is very feasible for most people.  It's easier to just avoid the products altogether; at least until cruelty free farming practices become the rule rather than the exception.

my reasons for being vegan are more about social equity than animal welfare. A plant based diet is a more viable way to feed the current human population, period. I'm vegan to prove that the human body can be healthy and fit on a purely plant based diet, because the argument I hear most against a plant based diet is that we're 'meant' to eat meat. Perhaps so, but with our current global population and environmental condition, it's pretty much necessary for all of us to move to a more plant based diet, or we're gonna kill our own species off.

Original Post by ambereva:

my reasons for being vegan are more about social equity than animal welfare. A plant based diet is a more viable way to feed the current human population, period. I'm vegan to prove that the human body can be healthy and fit on a purely plant based diet, because the argument I hear most against a plant based diet is that we're 'meant' to eat meat. Perhaps so, but with our current global population and environmental condition, it's pretty much necessary for all of us to move to a more plant based diet, or we're gonna kill our own species off.

 Actually I agree with you on this set of points. In other words, it takes a lot of calories to concentrate available food (feed stock) energy into meat or dairy products. It is much more environmentally friendly and energy efficient to eat the vegetable products directly.

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