Holier than Thou? A morality issue

I've noticed this problem amongst vegetarians/vegans (Not here of course, but in 'the real world' haha).

I've been, loosely, vegan for about a few months now. I still have 'slip ups' (Ice cream and dairy things every other week or so), but I figured it's best to ease into this drastic change of lifestyle instead of diving head first and risking having larger slip ups.

But, I've come across a few 'Veganazis' in my time, ones who will treat you like you kill babies and deficate on puppies for admitting you had a bite of soft serve ice cream on the boardwalk, or that you use splenda. It gets kind of ridiculous, or maybe it's just where I am currently living. But, until I can locate a non-calorie sweetener that is cruelty free, or they make soft serve soy ice cream, I'll enjoy my splurges sparingly, and I'm going to continue to enjoy them.

I got into vegetarianism for animal rights, and veganism just because, well, I hardly eat those sorts of foods anyway -again, save for the occassional dairy product. But some of the vegans I have met have just been plain rude. Why the holier than thou attitude over new vegans, vegetarians who eat honey eggs and airy, or pescitarians or even people with an omnivorous diet? This seems to be a big issue amongst many vegans I have met, and when I ask their reasons behind their predjudice, they accuse the non-strict vegans as being 'advocates of death and cruelty'.

It's a freaking glass of milk. Yes, I understand how corrupt the milk industry is, but seriously, marking someone on the same tier as Pol Pot because they enjoy a slice of pizza once in a while seems just plain bonkers to me.

I am rambling, I need to digress back to the original topic.

• How do you deal with the notorious 'Veganazi's, 'PeTA Gestapo' and 'Bat 'poop' crazies'?
  
• Do you consider yourself one of these people? Why do you feel the need to try and 'convert' people?
  
• Did anyone know they made vegan leather? This stuff is amazing!
  

Discuss

Original Post by sadinplaid:

How do you deal with the notorious 'Veganazi's, 'PeTA Gestapo' and 'Bat 'poop' crazies'? I don't talk to them.

Do you consider yourself one of these people? Why do you feel the need to try and 'convert' people? Definitely not one of these people. I've been a vegetarian for over a year, and though I've thought of going vegan, it's a big commitment that I'm just not ready for, so I do the best I can - like eating veggie shreds instead of cheese. Probably the reason I don't deal with the nazis, is because I'm not trying to convert anyone, so I rarely talk about it. It's my decision.

Did anyone know they made vegan leather? This stuff is amazing! haven't tried it. where do you get it?

I have this entire internet list of shops that sells vegan leather. You can get boots, jackets, Guitar straps, wallets, stuff for pets, and bags and stuff for the ladies.

(Ignore the PeTA thing, but their site has some awesome info on where to find/acquire vegan things)

http://www.peta.org/living/alt1.asp

thanks!

• How do you deal with the notorious 'Veganazi's, 'PeTA Gestapo' and 'Bat 'poop' crazies'?

I wouldn't use these terms (nazi? gestapo? cmon, that's rather offensive..) to describe anyone, *however*, the 'hardcore vegans' that I have encountered (I would also be put in this category), for the most part, have my full respect. Being vegan takes discipline and dedication. For many, it's a code of ethics comparable to faith and devotion. Having said that, I have met a few annoying in-your-face types. There are annoying idiots everywhere. I guess I'd mind my own business and ask them to do the same. Or tell them to f-off :p

• Do you consider yourself one of these people? Why do you feel the need to try and 'convert' people?

Well, I'm 100% vegan (to the best of my knowledge and the best of my ability). However, I don't try to convert people. What I eat, what I believe in, what I stand for, who I am, and how I choose to live my life is my business entirely. As it a personal choice, I tend to not tell people unless asked. I've found its easier this way, as once people know you're vegan you get challenged all the time with lame questions (yes, ALL the time) and the same boneheaded, redundant arguments or unwarranted commentary, such as:

"How can you be vegan?";

"OK, but what about honey??";

"HA! But you're eating a______ (<--fill in with vegan item that non-vegan assumes has meat in it because they don't know what the heck they're talking about, but either assume they know more about food ingredients than the vegan -- they don't, or are trying to 'catch' the vegan in the act -- like that's any business of theirs..)';

"Well, vegetables have feelings too, you know!";

"I could NEVER do that"

It gets realllllllly old. So, while I haven't exactly answered your question, I guess i'd have to ask why meat-eaters notoriously try to convert/catch/contest/insult/ belittle/question/annoy/antagonize vegans. Some call it carnivore guilt..

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to read/comment in this forum as it seems to be turning into the above, rather than being a safe, friendly place where veg*ns can relax and not constantly be judged or have to defend themselves. sigh

• Did anyone know they made vegan leather? This stuff is amazing!

There are vegan alternatives for pretty much everything..

I think for some people being vegan is like a religion, and just like christians who think they are better than non-christians they feel the need to judge other people. There will always be people of all types who feel the need to judge. Then again, there will always be reasonable people of all types as well. In general I just ignore the judgey types. I know the benefits of a vegetarian diet and mostly eat veggie (not vegan) during the week. I also try to make wise choices when I do eat meat and dairy (pasture raised, grass red, humanely raised, etc.) and luckily where I live it's very easy. 

Wow... having been vegetarian for 12 years, I can't say I've ever encountered that kind of attitude (the "you're not veg*n ENOUGH" one).  Mostly I get hostility or bafflement from meat-eaters.  Of course, I live in San Antonio, Texas, so...

That said, I myself have something of a problem with people who claim to be vegetarian, but still eat flesh.  I had a friend once who "went vegetarian" and then ordered a burger at Sonic, removed the bun, and ate the patty.

Add to this that I'm something of a linguistic prescriptivist (I'm working on it), so I kinda think that if you still indulge in dairy products, you maybe shouldn't call yourself vegan.  I think you're harming your own cause by calling dairy consumption a "slip-up".  You could instead say that you're transitioning, or that you're vegetarian with heavy vegan leanings, or lacto-vegetarian, or "almost vegan".  That way you won't be perceived as a hypocrite, or someone misappropriating a term that has a very specific definition.

And when it comes to "Veganazis", well, anyone who feels strongly that there is a moral right and wrong side to an issue will sometimes come across as judgmental or confrontational.  To them, I recommend a reminder that we're all just human, doing the best we can.

Vegetarians have chosen a mythical "healthy" lifestyle.  Our society is based on Judeo-Christian principles, one which is personal liberty.  One can be a veggie person, and that's ok, one can be more realistic and eat anything animal God compassionately gives us to eat. 

It's not any issue of morality, or rightness.  If one uses a blue towel vs. a green towel after a shower, it's their choice.  It's a personal taste and/or preference issue, not one of morally right.  The blue towel user isn't "more right" than the green towel user, just different.

Original Post by wifi92:

Vegetarians have chosen a mythical "healthy" lifestyle.  Our society is based on Judeo-Christian principles, one which is personal liberty.  One can be a veggie person, and that's ok, one can be more realistic and eat anything animal God compassionately gives us to eat. 

It's not any issue of morality, or rightness.  If one uses a blue towel vs. a green towel after a shower, it's their choice.  It's a personal taste and/or preference issue, not one of morally right.  The blue towel user isn't "more right" than the green towel user, just different.

I tried to bite my tongue on this, I don't mean to start anything, but i totally disagree with this.  It IS about morals for a lot of veg*ns. 

Original Post by rock_me_asmodeus:

But, until I can locate a non-calorie sweetener that is cruelty free, or they make soft serve soy ice cream, I'll enjoy my splurges sparingly, and I'm going to continue to enjoy them.

 

Non-calorie cruelty free sweetener: Stevia. Pure powdered or liquidized Stevia, not the kind they mix with sugar or other artificial sweeteners. It's made from the leaves of the Stevia plant. Also, they don't make soft serve *soy* ice cream, but many *raw* ice creams (made of nut "milk) - given they don't contain emulsifiers or stabilizers, freeze to a solid consistency. In order to eat it you must leave it to sit out of the freezer for at least half an hour. Once, I accidentally left mine out for more like 50 minutes and the consistency was exactly like a soft serve ice cream. If you can't find raw ice cream there are plenty of recipes online.

Problem solved.

Original Post by angeluhh:

Add to this that I'm something of a linguistic prescriptivist (I'm working on it), so I kinda think that if you still indulge in dairy products, you maybe shouldn't call yourself vegan.  I think you're harming your own cause by calling dairy consumption a "slip-up".  You could instead say that you're transitioning, or that you're vegetarian with heavy vegan leanings, or lacto-vegetarian, or "almost vegan".  That way you won't be perceived as a hypocrite, or someone misappropriating a term that has a very specific definition.

I agree completely.  I am currently transitioning from pescaterian to vegan and have made it as far as pesca vegan with loose variance on lacto-ovo.  For instance I will occasionally eat a pastry which most have eggs or milk in the recipe.   But I'm trying.  I Know eventually I will get there. 

QUOTE: "I guess i'd have to ask why meat-eaters notoriously try to convert/catch/contest/insult/ belittle/question/annoy/antagonize vegans. Some call it carnivore guilt.."

*APPLAUSE*  I completely agree.... the same questions get really old really fast.  I wouldn't mind if they were valid, like "How does this choice affect your diet requirements", "Do you find it difficult to tick to a strikt diet" etc.  But most are snobby or judgemental: "OMG What do you eat?", "oh you must be lacking protein", "Oh you're one of THOSE", "No wonder you're o skinny, aren't you malnourished?" and many many more..... I hate it.....

It's curious how outraged people have gotten at comparisoned being made between the treatment of animals in slaughterhouses and the treatment of Jews (and disabled people, homosexuals, etc) in concentration camps - and then feel free to use words like VegaNazi and PeTa Gestapo which compare passionate (and albeit self-righteous) vegans to those responsible for concentration camps. Hmm. Interesting.

I agree with those above - it you occassionaly eat dairy, then you're not a vegan,  you're a vegetarian. Don't claim a label you don't earn.  Seems pretty simple to me.

Ugh - "nazi" is a term that can be attached to any person exhibiting excessively rigid and unforgiving tendencies with regard to anything, veganism included. Nazism = fascism. And fascistic traits can be applicable to any dominion.

I have met omnivorous fascists and those of the vegan variety. Both weren't terribly appealing to me. Intolerance, whatever the form, generally is not... 

Fascism is a political ideology and a totalitarian form of government

Nazism is a movement with specific intentions and values.

Not all Fascists are Nazis, the two terms cannot be always used together.

To say that referring to a Fascist as a Nazi is acceptable is akin to saying that referring to an act of specialized, brutal mass slaughter can be referred to as a Holocaust. Either the specific historical meaning of terms should be respected, or they shouldn't.

Semantics. You're taking things waaaaaay too seriously. And no, not all fascists are nazis, but all nazis were fascists. For the most part, I link the word 'nazi' to those displaying 'rigid and intolerant' attitudes as more of a joke than anything else, and usually in an attempt to lighten them (or the situation) up a tad. I don't think anyone uses the term in a deliberately malicious manner, even if it does err on the side of 'offensive'. Hell, I call my mum a food nazi when she starts trying to dictate my dietary needs. And due to the fact her father actually WAS in the Waffen SS, she would have a legitimate reason to be riled, but isn't. She grasps the intention, and the fact that the implication is that her attitudes and/or behaviour are coming across as somewhat intolerant, controlling and/or puritanical. Had I told her in a straight-faced manner that she were those three things she'd undoubtedly get the ****s. And so I use it to add a little frivolity to the occasion. Does this mean I believe the holocaust to have been a frivolous occasion? No. The connection with nazism and the behaviour in question is still a negative one, and yet quite obviously not so serious.

Which brings me back to my original reaction: Everything is being taken way to damn seriously here. Pretty much one of the points the OP was making in his original post.

*Contemplates navel (and the possibility that sarah is a Vegannazi)*

And by the way, fascism's definition is not exclusively restricted to a political ideology and totalitarian system of governing and social organisation. The noun can also be utilised generally to denote extremely right wing, authoritarian, OR intolerant views or practice.

my original point was about semantics, really: that many groups have expressed outrage at animal rights activists for comparing slaughterhouses to the concentration camps and the meat industry to the holocaust.

The technique is the same: using a loaded term which invokes an intense, often emotional, reaction - such as "Holocaust" or "Nazi"- in a different context to prove a point or make a comparison.

So what I was trying to say was - IF it's acceptable to use terms  like "VegaNazi" or "PeTa Gestapo", it's similarily acceptable to compare the vicious, organized slaughter of certain species of animals to the Holocaust.

Yeah, I actually agree with you. I was a vegan, am going back to veganism, and even during my non-vegan days I've deliberately made "friendlier" choices (free-range eggs, "free range" (uncaged) chickens raised in local farms when cooking for others).

But in a social setting, I just don't like it when omnivores or veganores try to make the 'other' feel guilty about her or his choices. It really does come down to personal choice. As I have previously mentioned, I have always made meat dishes for others, right through my veganism, but I suppose this is simply reflection of all of our varying "limits". The term veganazis applies to those at the extreme end of the scale - those who preach and tut tut at everyone and make others feel bad.  I don't dislike them, but I don't think they help the cause. They just piss people off, and if anything, make them more fixed in their own convictions. The fascism begetting fascism effect.

Original Post by ninafish:

Semantics. You're taking things waaaaaay too seriously. And no, not all fascists are nazis, but all nazis were fascists. For the most part, I link the word 'nazi' to those displaying 'rigid and intolerant' attitudes as more of a joke than anything else, and usually in an attempt to lighten them (or the situation) up a tad. I don't think anyone uses the term in a deliberately malicious manner, even if it does err on the side of 'offensive'. Hell, I call my mum a food nazi when she starts trying to dictate my dietary needs. And due to the fact her father actually WAS in the Waffen SS, she would have a legitimate reason to be riled, but isn't. She grasps the intention, and the fact that the implication is that her attitudes and/or behaviour are coming across as somewhat intolerant, controlling and/or puritanical. Had I told her in a straight-faced manner that she were those three things she'd undoubtedly get the ****s. And so I use it to add a little frivolity to the occasion. Does this mean I believe the holocaust to have been a frivolous occasion? No. The connection with nazism and the behaviour in question is still a negative one, and yet quite obviously not so serious.

Which brings me back to my original reaction: Everything is being taken way to damn seriously here. Pretty much one of the points the OP was making in his original post.

*Contemplates navel (and the possibility that sarah is a Vegannazi)*

this^^^^

nice thread rockme

There's a saying that 'hell hath no prude like a reformed whore'.... It applies to a lot of people that have given something up or 'seen the light'.   They often get the urge to spread the good word.  Ex smokers and ex drinkers can get very dull on the subject of how long they've been smoke/alcohol-free, what substitutes they've found and how marvellous they feel... and how marvellous you'd feel if you gave up the evil weed/booze too!!!   And you've only to read these boards where ex fat people dish out advice (LOL!) to see that the same is true with dietary issues.

Vegans are no less susceptible.  It's very hard work getting accepted into the exclusive A-list vegan coterie, after all.  They don't want any old B -list ice-cream munching wannabee riff-raff spoiling the rarified club atmosphere!  Not following the rules....  letting the side down....   If you get one that wants to evangelise or put you straight either grin and bear it or make your excuses and leave pronto.

Oh yes... if you're still eating ice-cream call yourself a vegetarian. It's technically more accurate and saves a lot of arguments.

That's one of the main reasons I stopped being vegetarian is all I can say. Those people...

Original Post by soupcanx:

That's one of the main reasons I stopped being vegetarian is all I can say. Those people...

That's a real shame :(

I wish you hadn't had such a bad experience with vegetarians/vegans that it turned you off such a positive way of living & eating.