Accupuncture for Weight Loss?

Hello Everyone,

I have always been a fan of alternative medicine and have an appointment for an initial accupuncture consultation next week for an issue unrelated to weight loss.

However, browsing her website, I noticed that my doctor also lists "weight loss" as an issue accupuncture could be useful for. 

Has anyone tried?  Thoughts?  Advice? 

thanks in advance
Emese

I currently see an acupuncturist.  Weight is ONE of the issues we are working on.  For example, he has been stimulating a point that helps the body convert fat to energy.  So far, I feel more energetic, but I haven't seen a TON of weight loss.  However, acupuncture is only part of the equation.  Diet and exercise need to be part of the equation too.  That said, I know that I am more emotionally stable which helps with emotional eating issues.  I am feeling more energetic, which means I am more inclined to be more active.  So, acupuncture is a good adjunct to the diet and exercise I am trying to include in my lifestyle.

I hope this is helpful.  Let me know if you have more questions.

J

It's a hard thing to discuss thoroughly as I have read about at least three different ways to apply acupuncture in this setting (four if you count 'acupressure'). None of which appears to have any strong evidence in medical journals (English ones anyway).

There was one systematic review that I found. Published in the International Journal of Obesity in 2005.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=p ubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch =15925954&ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSy stem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubm ed_RVDocSum

"The evidence related to acupuncture, acupressure, dietary supplements, homeopathy and hypnotherapy. Except for hypnotherapy, Ephedra sinica and other ephedrine-containing dietary supplements the weight of the evidence is not convincing enough to suggest effectiveness. For these interventions, small effects compared with placebo were identified."

So small effect, near placebo levels.

To be fair there are some neurology journal articles which try to explain the effect of weight loss via apatite suppression but that seems a little like cart before the horse.

[Edit]

For example, he has been stimulating a point that helps the body convert fat to energy.

Make that five applications.

If there's something more complex than biochemistry it's got to be Traditional Chinese Medicine. ?? (Hei Gong) is just one of those things where there are twice as many models, methods and practices as their are practitioners.

[Edit Again:]

Please don't interpret this as an attack on Acupuncture. There are perfectly legitimate uses for it with proper clinical evidence. Tennis Elbow, some low-grade pain control - but don't try to use it as a substitute for a spinal block!! :D

Likewise don't take this as an endorsement of HeiGong theory either.

My dad is an acupuncturist ;). According to him acupuncture works on all the  medical problems (he used to be a surgeon). He firmly believes that acupuncture will maximize weightloss but that one should not totally depend on it to lose weight.

I've tried acupuncture a couple times and I found that it decreases my appetite and increases my metabolism (boosting energy level etc.).

According to him accupuncture works on all the medical problems (he used to be a surgeon).

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/335/7617/436.p df

Considering that in this study advice + exercise + acupuncture performed worse than exercise + advice  and advice + exercise + sham acupuncture ( using needles that don't actually penetrate the skin ) for knee osteoarthritis.  I'd reconsider the 'all medical problems' opinion if I were he.

The trial with sham acupuncture performed the best incidentally.  Meaning that inserting needles did nothing. 

 

Hi sarkeizen,
I know there are a lot of scientific researches done on acupuncture. I personally could not really understand the use of acupuncture in a scientific view. However, acupuncture works and has been working at least in China for more than 4000 years. For me, I trust something that has been done repeatedly and successfully. I just appreciate the fact that it has worked on me and probably would work well on others. I also like the fact that it does not have troublesome side effects.

As for "all medical problems", he does not mean acupuncture alone could cure them. However, accupuncture could aid in treating those problems. For example, accupuncture could not cure cancer but it could help in strengthen your immune system, respiratory system, and circulatory system, which would make the patient stronger to battle cancer.

I'm not trying to argue or anything. Some people believe in it and some people don't. I personally don't see the problem with trying acupuncture once or twice and decide if you want to continue or not. :)

However, accupuncture works and has been working at least in China for more than 4000 years. For me, I trust something that has been done repeatedly and successfully.

Here's the problem, obviously it matters to you not just that something was done for 4000 years ( some people date it older than 5000 years btw). Killing people to solve petty disputes has probably been done longer than that and I would assume you don't advocate that.

For example if someone did something without being very good at keeping records is that just as good as someone who kept very good records? What if someone wasn't very good at math? Wouldn't those people make more mistakes than people who were very, very good at math? What about people who are denied important information? Would they come to exactly the same conclusions as people who have a lot more information?

Isn't it possible that all of these factors combined into people making the same mistakes over and over? Perhaps even for 5000 years?

This is exactly the issue, it's possible that Chinese acupuncturists kept records of patients and their treatments and recovery. If so, we don't have them so it's impossible to determine if they used good methods or not. Even if they had kept records how would they have ruled out diseases (which they would have seen as the result of bad HeiGung instead of bacteria from poor sanitary conditions) and other things from their data?

As advanced as China was in the math dept they didn't have any modern statistical methods. Nobody in China from 4000 AD to 1000 AD could have told you what the p-value was. It was only around 700 AD that we find any evidence of combinatorics in Chinese literature. Pascal's triangle appears in known Chinese literature in 1300. If you don't know probability theory, then you don't know if what you're doing is working or if it is pure luck.

This isn't just a Chinese thing. Even in western medicine proper statistical methodology hasn't always been followed and even today we find bad math in modern medicine.

Another thing, in terms of long-term care (some diseases shorten your life) how would they have known if something worked or not without knowing the average life-expectancy? How could they gather that kind of information across a country so large? ( You could use a smaller sample - statisticians today do exactly that but they need something called the Central Limit Theorem but again it looks like China didn't have the math to do that).

Now of course you could just wave away all of this and assume that China did all these things but it can't be shown. The problem there is that if modern acupuncture resembles ancient acupuncture then there's a problem. When you do modern tests on acupuncture the results are either non-existent or small.

So I'm sure you agree that something doesn't just have to be around for a long time in order to be right. It has to be well documented, controlled and analyzed. It also, when done in the same way as it was back then has to jive with modern data.

I just appreciate the fact that it has worked on me and probably would work well on others.

How do you know it worked?

As for "all medical problems", he does not mean accupuncture alone could cure them. However, accupuncture could aid in treating those problems.

That's not what I gave an example about. You should read my message. I didn't say that acupuncture couldn't cure knee osteoarthritis but it couldn't help it. People who got acupuncture generally had worse pain than those who didn't get it and even those who they only pretended to give it to had better pain levels than those who got acupuncture. In fact the 'pretend acupuncture' worked the best of all so even for those on this board who use "placebo effect" like a mantra - acupuncture couldn't help.

Just like you - some people were given the treatment. The main differences were than is it was a larger group of people and the people were asked about their pain levels and this was recorded and analyzed.

Makes a big difference don't you think.

Some people believe in it and some people don't.

This is true but there are issues outside 'belief'. For example "Is there any good reason to do this?"

I personally don't see the problem with trying accupuncture once or twice and decide if you want to continue or not. :)

I wouldn't have a problem with it if there was no research at all, or if there is a lot of positive research or if it was free or done for entertainment.

However I find something intrinsically dishonest about recommending something that:

i) I don't really know if it had any effect on me.

ii) A reasonably large body of evidence suggests it isn't very effective.

I mean if I knew (i) at the very least I would give a provisio that this might have all been in my head but knowing (ii) - which I think you admitted - seems downright dishonest.

Actually the debate on acupuncture has been going on not only in China but also worldwide for very long. People question the scientific use of acupuncture. I must say I agree with you in a sense that there's not backup (or lack of scientific proves) for it which makes it less valueable and trustable.

I haven't noticed the real effect of acupuncture on my weightloss yet since I've only done it a few times. However I did notice that it decreases my appetite and increases my energy level. I've also found that acupuncture works really well on cramps, headaches, back and shoulder pain and cold symptoms. These are just my personal experiences and I don't think I could be lieing to myself.

I understand that you are against acupuncture for the lack of scientific supporting data. I actually argued about the same thing with my father before I had it done. I have to say I still do not understand it scientifically. I'm not trying to promote acupuncture or argue with you because I'm not a professional in the field of acupuncture. All I could offer is my personal experience on acupuncture.

I was just trying to leave my thought on acupuncture so it might be helpful to Emese.

Maybe it's not helpful at all.......

These are just my personal experiences and I don't think I could be lieing to myself.

But how would you know?  Especially with something like 'appetite' which is pretty difficult to measure.  I mean I'm kinda hungry right now so what do I call that?  A hunger score of 4?  Later in the day am I more hungry?  Not always.   Sometimes I'm not hungry at all ( So we call that a Hunger score of 0).

If you measured this four times a day you might be able to calculate your overall or average hunger for the day.  But what about the next day?  How do I know that I'm just as hungry yesterday at the same time?  What if the hunger cycle shifts by an hour so when I measure my hunger I'm no longer hungry.

So maybe, instead we measure how many times a day we are hungry.   Ok but sometimes I don't notice my hunger because I'm busy.  How do we tell?

It's not a question of lying.  If it's really difficult to figure something out we can just be mistaken. 

I'm a student and I get home around 3pm. I get really hungry. I have problem with afternoon (before dinner) snaking. I can really eat a lot (~700kcals) once I get home. I do not feel the urge to eat so much (~100kcal) for a week or so after I have acupuncture. My hunger comes back after a week or so if I don't continue with acupuncture.

I can really eat a lot (~700kcals) once I get home. I do not feel the urge to eat so much (~100kcal) for a week or so after I have acupuncture.

So what you've actually measured is how much you ate.  You realize that this isn't the same as 'apatite'.    After all regardless of how hungry I am I can choose to eat or not eat.  In the extreme case people have willfully starved themselves to death.

So there is some degree of independence between food consumption and hunger.  Not to mention you've only, by your own admission had a few sessions so our sample size is really small.   Since you don't actually know what the degree of independence is.  It's difficult to say if acupuncture helped in this case. 

 

 

I'm not doing an experiment with myself. I also do not want to argue. I personally find acupuncture helpful in controlling my apetite. I understand that it is able to use one's willpower to control the food intake. I used to have an ED... I'm just providing my own experience with acupuncture. I do not understand why you desire to prove my personal opinions and experiences wrong.

I'm not doing an experiment with myself.

It wouldn't be a bad idea...you might get a better idea if acupuncture helps or not.

I do not understand why you desire to prove my personal opinions and experiences wrong.

There are three separate issues here - proof, experiences and opinions.

Proof:  Actually I can't prove your opinions wrong.  There is no data to support a negative hypothesis.  What I can give you though is doubt and doubt is a very powerful tool for helping you decide what is worth doing.

Experiences:  I don't even mean to make you doubt your experiences, I only have given you reasonable grounds to question how you interpreted them.

Opinions: The only thing that can come out of allowing an opinion to be above question is that it lets you keep wrong ones around much longer than you normally would.

Anyway Cheers,

J. 

These days accupuncture for weight loss is quite popular in China. Lots of my girl friends in China have tried it and almost all of them said it worked. But they were told to watch their diet at the same time too. And I think accupuncture just speeds up their metabolism so that they burn more calories everyday, plus they're eating less, so that's why it works.

And I think accupuncture just speeds up their metabolism so that they burn more calories everyday, plus they're eating less, so that's why it works.

I really do understand this. I know it's popular. I know people say it works.

The real question is: "Is that person in a position to give that judgment?"

If you are running a caloric deficit we know people will lose weight. How much weight someone will lose in a given period of time can vary dramatically with the person and even vary between multiple diets on the same person.

Given that, unless the person is keeping very careful records it's unlikely that they even have a foggy idea that they are losing weight at a significantly faster rate.

??? ??!