Friends are surprisingly ANTI-weight lifting

The title says it all, basically.

I am not going to bulk up. First, I am a girl.  Second, even if I started taking steroids, I am not planning on progressing to very heavy weights/power lifting/whatever.  I don't enjoy lifting like I enjoy dancing and yoga - which in the past kept me quite strong and fairly lean.

My plan: use NROLFW (at a slight deficit) + HIIT + vinyasa yoga to slim down.  I still have about 25 pounds to lose.  Once I'm at my goal weight, I don't intend to keep lifting regularly (maybe I will change my mind).  I realize that I will likely lose muscle mass gained (if any, at deficit), but I want to continue doing yoga, dancing, calisthenics and using a swiss ball to stay in shape.

I have expressed the desire to start weight lifting to my friends and surprisingly, they try incredibly hard to convince me not to.

Specifically, they argue that weight lifting is not natural (I agree, kind of...  anything much heavier than lifting a small child) and it causes "bulky" muscles instead of dense, long & lean, etc etc.... Ugh.  They told me I should do more reps with less weight so I don't hurt myself.  Last night, I tried to convince them that low weight high reps = muscle endurance with little strength gain, high weight low reps = more strength and mass gain.  You'd think I was foaming at the mouth or something.

I don't even know what to say to them.  I would like to convince them that it really is OK for me to lift weights, and hopefully enlighten them in the process.  Any advice?

Lead by example - follow NROLFW for 6 mo, and then show off how great you look.

Unfortunately, Shape, Fitness, and Cosmo have completely warped people's minds, and people have a hard time letting go of all the bull that those magazines sell.

I'm definitely just going to do it anyway, and hope they notice the results.  I started yesterday.

About persuading them of the truth - they are both male engineers and therefore in order to convince them of ANY thing I need to have some serious, reputable sources backing me.  They're both extremely intelligent and well-read (though as stereotypical engineers, not necessarily about exercise... but one used to be a pole-vaulter in amazing shape, the other played soccer and volleyball for years) and not particularly easy to persuade.  You can't just present them information without solid evidence; they are quite skeptical. (So why do I have this problem to begin with...?)

I would like to present them with some reputable sources to back me up, but I am havin a hard time finding anything not splattered with advertisements for XXX GET HUGE FAST supplements and framed by pictures of men resembling the hulk.  Does anyone know a good exercise science journal where I might find this?

The trainers at my gym are suprisingly anti-lifting for women as well.

I noticed yesterday that I have almost never seen a trainer bring women into the main free weights section of the gym.  Sometimes they will show women how to use the machines, but most of the time they have the women over on the mats using light weights (5lb. and under) for strength training.  Other than that they show women aerobics-ish moves and focus on cardio.

The trainers almost always show men the weight machines, and sometimes guide them with heavier free weights.

The exception is one male trainer ~23 yrs. old who is a huge advocate of lifting and works with teenagers, women, and men on cardio, free weights, resistance training, core etc.

It's trainers like the majority at my gym, and the articles in 'fitness' magazines that prevent people like your friends from seeing the truth about weight training.  Like metioned above, probably the best you can do is lead by example and hope to prove them wrong.

Do they think that they (men) should train with heavy weights, but that you (women) should train with light weights? Or do they think that everyone should train with light weights?

And are they looking at it from a weight loss or muscle building perspective?

Point them to this site.  It's got tons of good informatin and Krista is a very slim petite woman who lifts heavy weights. 

People say you lose muscle mass on a deficit or lose weight too quickly (ie. over 2 lbs per week) but I have found different.  I've averaged 2.85 lbs per week lost over the last 3 months and that includes one week off for vacation.  I have a scale that measures muscle and fat %s and I've found that I have just about the exact same muscle mass as I did when I started, even though I've done no weight lifting.  Granted I didn't do weight lifting before either and live a sedentary lifestyle so I probably have my natural amount of muscle without gains from working out.  It probably depends on genetics but apparently I can lose more than 2 lbs per week and not lose muscle, maybe you're the same?  Just because you're on a deficit doesn't mean you will lose muscle mass. 

Original Post by amethystgirl:

Do they think that they (men) should train with heavy weights, but that you (women) should train with light weights? Or do they think that everyone should train with light weights?

And are they looking at it from a weight loss or muscle building perspective?

 I assume this is directed toward my comment?

They seem to think that women should only use light weights, and men with heavy weights.

And while I can't say what perspective they are looking at weight training from, this patter is SO consistent, than I'm pretty sure that they train women with light weights for 'muscle building' (as if that will happen with 5 lb weights) and weight loss.  Women who clearly do not need to lose weight, and are even pretty fit, are shown light weights and sometimes the machines...

Incompetent...

They know I am trying to lose weight; they know I go to the gym and do yoga and have noticed me eating less, but don't know my specific goals.   I have mentioned wanting to be stronger, in better shape, and generally smaller, but I've emphasized the context of being physically prepared for dance classes starting this fall.  [I tore both ACLs ~two years ago and (combined with BC) gained 30 lbs, and have been trying incredibly hard to get strong enough to dance again.]

amethystgirl, The soccer/volleyball one is adamant about "weight loss is as simple as calories in < calories out" - which I am happy to hear.  They take more of an anti-weight lifting stance entirely, it seems. But considering context, I'm not sure - maybe they think it is strictly for gain.  I'm not sure if they believe the weight lifting gender gap.  They were so appaled when I even mentioned lifting (several times now) that I didn't ask.  I will ask them, and show them karozel's link (thanks!). 

egerbo, I did not mean to imply that I think a deficit will automatically cause muscle loss.  I know about the benefits of HIIT over SS and that lifting while on a deficit will preserve muscle mass and newbie gains.  I just meant when(if) I stop lifting weights and switch to yoga/dance, I will likely "need" less muscle for those less/differently anaerobically demanding activities, and that I am prepared to accept any muscle loss as a result.  I've lost 10lbs so far at about 3/4lb per week, and I think most of it has been fat, since I've done HIIT, yoga, and a less-than-stellar-and-not-that-structured lifting routine on machines.  I'm hoping that structured free weight lifting will up that fat:muscle loss ratio as high as possible.  And hopefully kick the weight loss into a higher gear.  I'm not 16 and male so I can only pray for the same results

Original Post by maxx86:

The trainers at my gym are suprisingly anti-lifting for women as well.

I noticed yesterday that I have almost never seen a trainer bring women into the main free weights section of the gym.  Sometimes they will show women how to use the machines, but most of the time they have the women over on the mats using light weights (5lb. and under) for strength training.  Other than that they show women aerobics-ish moves and focus on cardio.

The trainers almost always show men the weight machines, and sometimes guide them with heavier free weights.

The exception is one male trainer ~23 yrs. old who is a huge advocate of lifting and works with teenagers, women, and men on cardio, free weights, resistance training, core etc.

It's trainers like the majority at my gym, and the articles in 'fitness' magazines that prevent people like your friends from seeing the truth about weight training.  Like metioned above, probably the best you can do is lead by example and hope to prove them wrong.

 WOW! I teach yoga at several gyms and ALL of the gyms have trainers that put women in the weight area! I would be pretty sceptical about the trainers at your gym!!!

I love NROLFW! I think that resource is great. Really explains what is happening. As for your friends that are engineers. Don't explain anything to them! Just do your own thing. They will "see" for themselves!! Good luck. 

Original Post by mkl39:

About persuading them of the truth - they are both male engineers and therefore in order to convince them of ANY thing I need to have some serious, reputable sources backing me.  They're both extremely intelligent and well-read (though as stereotypical engineers, not necessarily about exercise... but one used to be a pole-vaulter in amazing shape, the other played soccer and volleyball for years) and not particularly easy to persuade.  You can't just present them information without solid evidence; they are quite skeptical. (So why do I have this problem to begin with...?)

I would stop engaging them on this topic and save all the mental energy you would have put into searching for evidence and persuading them... then take that energy and put it into your workouts when you’re alone with your weights. If they want to argue with you about it, brush it off with a non-committal comment and change the subject.

In the end it doesn’t matter whether you change their minds or not, you will be still be doing those NROLFW workouts, and enjoying getting strong and fit, whatever they end up believing. You may not have the satisfaction of them seeing the light of truth, but you will have the satisfaction of your strong new body.

Original Post by mkl39:

amethystgirl, The soccer/volleyball one is adamant about "weight loss is as simple as calories in < calories out" - which I am happy to hear. 

Weight loss is as simple as calories in < calories out, but the composition of the weight lost (whether it's fat or lean tissue) can vary significantly.  Maybe Melkor can post a link to study that demonstrates this? 

floggingsully, I already know about that, but I hadn't thought to approach it that way. Good call!  Thanks!

Yah, that's the kind of "personal trainer" that sets my teeth on edge - wanksta jackasses.

 Kindly direct your friends over to exrx.net for their article on weight training myths. (exrx.net is a recommended resource for ACSM trainers and a NSCA authorized CEU provider, so short of sending them off to college for a degree in exercise physiology or letting them borrow my full-text access to PubMed to look up the references from Melkor Geeks Out for themselves it's probably your best bet.)

 Muscle can shrink, grow or stay the same, it does not "tone". (Except in the most technical sense, but people are rarely referring to neurogenic or myogenic tonus when they use that word, which makes it handy as a diagnostic tool.)

 And Egerbo, even leaving out the +/-8% accuracy of bio-impedance scales which only makes them about as accurate as guessing, you're also a 16 year old male which means you're in the middle of Nature's own steroid cycle (puberty) which is muscle preserving, and clinically obese which throws your biochemistry so out of whack on its own that it's common for the obese to be able to build muscle on even relatively severe calorie deficits when combined with strength training. In short, assuming that it's not the scales being out of whack with their measurements (huge assumption, BIA is notoriously unreliable and of poor accuracy for the obese) you're a statistical outlier; the overall trend towards muscle loss in both male and female dieters when accurately measured is undisputable.

Original Post by melkor:

 And Egerbo, even leaving out the +/-8% accuracy of bio-impedance scales which only makes them about as accurate as guessing, you're also a 16 year old male which means you're in the middle of Nature's own steroid cycle (puberty) which is muscle preserving, and clinically obese which throws your biochemistry so out of whack on its own that it's common for the obese to be able to build muscle on even relatively severe calorie deficits when combined with strength training. In short, assuming that it's not the scales being out of whack with their measurements (huge assumption, BIA is notoriously unreliable and of poor accuracy for the obese) you're a statistical outlier; the overall trend towards muscle loss in both male and female dieters when accurately measured is undisputable.

 You're probably right about the body composition scale being off, but I've found that it only varies about .5% per day and has gradually declined as I've lost weight, so it may not be super accurate, but I think it's precise.  And I'm happy to report that I am no longer clinically obese, my BMI is 29.4 which is just under the 30+ classification for obese.  Sorry if it came off that I was saying everyone keeps their muscle mass on a calorie deficit, I just meant that was my experience. 

Original Post by maxx86:

 I assume this is directed toward my comment?

Actually, it was more to the OP. Unfortunately, I know exactly what standpoint the trainers you were talking about are coming from. As you say, incompetence.

mkl - When I started lifting, there were people who tried to dissuade me from it, but more from a "you have a bad back - why would you do that? You'll only hurt yourself" stand point. Funny enough, my back is doing so much better since I started lifting heavy weighs (yeah, squats and deadlifts!)

Ah, me too. Both male and female friends have said 'you'll bulk up!' or something along those lines. 4 months later, and (shock horror!) I haven't. Just keep doing what you want and they'll see for themselves that they were wrong. Don't waste time trying to change their minds, because people have pretty deep set ideas when it comes to girls lifting weights.

Original Post by amethystgirl:

Actually, it was more to the OP. Unfortunately, I know exactly what standpoint the trainers you were talking about are coming from. As you say, incompetence.

 Yea...realized that a solid 30 minutes later. Ah well, sorry if I annoyed anyone!

Yeah, and women shouldn't go to college either, because it might make insecure men nervous if women are smarter than them.

Seriously, don't waste time arguing with these people and just get to working out.

Original Post by antiferret:

Yeah, and women shouldn't go to college either, because it might make insecure men nervous if women are smarter than them.

Seriously, don't waste time arguing with these people and just get to working out.

If women don't go to college how are they supposed to find someone to marry, sheesh

Original Post by spirochete:

Original Post by antiferret:

Yeah, and women shouldn't go to college either, because it might make insecure men nervous if women are smarter than them.

Seriously, don't waste time arguing with these people and just get to working out.

If women don't go to college how are they supposed to find someone to marry, sheesh

It's called an MRS degree.

Nice to hear from you again, spiro.