I am so friggin' confused!!

Ok, first off, I apologise for making several posts on the past week on the same subjects, mainly fat loss and gaining muscle. I feel like I'm going round in circles but I keep reading conflicting information for my situation.

I want to build muscle and lose fat. I've been told that it's hard to do both at once effectively as you need to be at calorie deficit (Tom Venuto recommends 20% below your normal calorie needs), but to build muscle you need to be taking at least your normal needs if not more - building muscle is nigh impossible at a deficit.

At the moment I'd rather burn fat than build extra muscle as I do have a large layer of it over my stomach, I can feel lots of muscle definition from doing many muscle tone classes but feel the muscle definition is hidden under the fat.

However, I currently need 1420 from the calorie count calculator to maintain. 20% less than this is 1136 which is lower than the minimum of 1200 recommended for women. Previously I was eating only 1200 a day (or eating 1400 and burning 200 a day with cardio). However, I was recommended that this was putting my body into starvation mode and it was holding onto the fat making me "skinny fat".

SO how on earth do I burn the fat without going into starvation mode or catabolising my muscles?!

Do I put myself at a 100 calorie deficit of around 1300/day, eat 1g protein per 1lb to prevent catabolism? I've had people from all angles telling me I should be putting on weight and eating more calories but I can confidently say I have more fat on me than I have ever done in my life and I want to burn it but not to be 'skinny' but to be 'ripped'.

I'm 5'4, 101lbs, 24 years old female. I eat very a healthy, mixed diet aiming for 100grams of protein a day.

Again, sorry for going round in circles but I'm so confused! I want to burn fat but, if not build muscle, at least stop my body from depleting the muscle I already have.

I also have photos in my gallery that helps illustrate the fact that I'm not too underweight despite what stats and BMI say. From my photos you can see my ribs and hips are not sticking out and I am building some muscle (such as on my arms).

You have some guns! You look great in your pics, IMO.

If you want to get your BF% down though, lift heavy and maintain your good, healthy diet.

I'm not sure from your other posts (and I'm too lazy to look) but have you seen the Hierarchy of Fat Loss?

Original Post by bmx419:

You have some guns! You look great in your pics, IMO.

If you want to get your BF% down though, lift heavy and maintain your good, healthy diet.

I'm not sure from your other posts (and I'm too lazy to look) but have you seen the Hierarchy of Fat Loss?

 

 Thanks bmx!  I appreciate the comment as I really wasn't sure how good my muscle gain was - it's good to know it's visible! Not quite sure I'd call them 'guns' yet though?!

Coincidentally, it was the Hierarchy of Fat Loss that prompted me to post this original thread. I read it, and was very confused as I want to burn fat but don't think I should be at a low calorie deficit.

Having thought about it more, the one main problem I come across is often 'losing weight' is equated with 'losing fat'; and most advice is geared toward 'losing weight and lbs'. I don't want to lose weight, I just want to burn fat!

Well, think about it, fat has mass, therefore it has weight. If you lose the fat, you lose weight.

I totally understand what you mean though. I could really care less what my weight is. I haven't stepped on a scale in over 3 months. I just look in the mirror for results. I would like an accurate BF% test though.

I know it makes sense, losing fat can and often does result in losing weight.

However, I'm already between 99 - 101 lbs which is officially around 15lbs underweight for my height. I know I'm actually healthy and this is an ok weight for me, I would be happy if I gained a few but not trying to gain lots of lbs. However, I definitely don't want to lose anymore.

There must be a way to cut fat, and put on a bit of muscle without losing a drastic amount of weight and going down to a BMI of 15.

I weigh myself regularly to make sure I'm not dipping under 7 stone. I once went a month without weighing, checked and I was 6 stone 12 lbs. It gave me quite a shock!

I'd also like accurate BF% measuring. Is there any where people can go to get one, even with calipers?

If you are interested in gaining muscle then you will need to eat at a surplus and make sure you have adequate protein. It isn't going to be an easy process and you will be likely to gain only 1-1.5 lbs of muscle per month if you do everything right.

This is what I use for BF measurments http://www.accumeasurefitness.com/

why would you have a deficit at all when your BMI is 17.4. You definitely should be eating a weight gain diet and not trying to have a deficit at all. You need 1876 calories to maintain your weight, according to phord.com, so i would add at least 250-500 calories to that to gain at a moderate pace. If you couple this with strength training you will have the nutrients you need to build muscle and not be "skinny fat".

Somewhere between 250kcal/d and 550kcal/d surplus is where most natural trainees find is their optimal level for muscle gain with acceptable body fat gains - you'll never achieve a 100% muscle gain ratio but you can get a pretty good ratio with appropriate training and nutrition.

 Note that even when doing no exercise whatsoever approximately 13% of any weight gain comes in the form of muscle, even for the most untrained couch potato; your body always does a bit of nutrient partitioning and doesn't store all surplus calories as fat.

 Any exercise at all shifts this ratio, the very best natural trainees generally manage to get around a 4:1 ratio of 80% muscle, 20% fat gain though a 70-75% muscle gain is more common since people generally have unrealistic expectations for how much muscle it's possible to gain and overfeed too much when 'bulking'. Most people's optimum calorie surplus actually generally lie in the 350-450kcal/d range with women tending toward the lower end of that - of course you'll see bodybuilders on 1500kcal/d surplus who gain 90% muscle but they're also generally supplementing with injected testosterone, insulin and assorted other drugs so a real human being can't really go by anything they're doing.

Hey!  I am in a similar situation as you.  I am slim, but have very little muscle definition at the moment.  I'm 5'10", 143lbs.  This is good as far as the numbers say, but I'd prefer to have more definition and less fat!  I eat healthy and do cardio, but have been totally lazy when it comes to lifting and strength training for the past few months.  Provided you are already engaged in a strength training and weight lifting regimen a 3 times per week or so on your non-cardio days, here are some things I have found in the past that help build muscle definition:

Eat 5 or 6 small meals a day instead of 3 big ones, and use a good protien shake as your after work-out meal.  Some systems that use this technique are the Body for Life plan and p90x (both are excellent systems for building and maintaining lean muscle.) Eating 6 small meals a day will keep hunger in check, keep your metabolism up and keep you from going into "starvation mode."

Supplements!  There are a lot out there in various forms of powders and shakes that will give you good protein your body can use to build muscle, without a ton of sugar and bad stuff.  My favorite pre-made shakes are Muscle Milk and Myoplex.  Both contain high levels of protien, some carbs, creatine, and little to no sugar.  As for powders, any whey protien will do to add to a shake.  Creatine is also a good muscle building supplement.  I would do some research on these to find the best.

Also, be sure you are having a good post workout snack.  Your body needs carbs and protien post work-out to speed the recovery of your worked muscles.  A shake with whey protien and high carb is a good choice for building musle as it is quickly absorbed so your body can rebuild and repair the damaged muscles to gain size and strength.

For getting totally ripped, try p90x!  It's a bootcamp style workout that is amazing at building killer lean muscle.  You would be a good candidate as you already look pretty fit.  You need to have a good base level of fitness to even start p90x, but it will get you totally ripped in 90 days.  I made it in 3 weeks and noticed visible muscle definition before I went on vacation and dropped off the program.  You may have seen info-mercials for it, but you can find it on ebay for a fraction of the price!

Another thing that seems to work for a lot of people is Yoga.  It is known to build very lean, flexible muscle.  Some classes are more strength oriented than others.

You have to eat to build muscle.  If you are working out and eating enough and correctly, your body will transform.  p90x takes the guess work out, which is nice.  

Good luck, and I hope this helps!

dabrock, thanks for the recommendation on this BF measurement tools. I may invest in some as I think the scales are a misnomer for me in monitoring my progress. Measurements with measuring tape and calipers is the way forward!

chrissy, I appreciate your concern on my weight and calorie intake. But I have covered this many times in different posts and have had support from other members that I am naturally very light. My photos in my gallery show that I am not stick-thing with no bones visible. I have also been to a doctor with concerns over weight and staying healthy whilst exercising, and even requested an appointment with a nutrionist, but was given the all-clear bill of health and was told I am infact very healthy with high blood count etc. So, as I mentioned to dabrock, the scales and my BMI are quite misleading for me.

Original Post by melkor:

Somewhere between 250kcal/d and 550kcal/d surplus is where most natural trainees find is their optimal level for muscle gain with acceptable body fat gains - you'll never achieve a 100% muscle gain ratio but you can get a pretty good ratio with appropriate training and nutrition.

 Note that even when doing no exercise whatsoever approximately 13% of any weight gain comes in the form of muscle, even for the most untrained couch potato; your body always does a bit of nutrient partitioning and doesn't store all surplus calories as fat.

 Any exercise at all shifts this ratio, the very best natural trainees generally manage to get around a 4:1 ratio of 80% muscle, 20% fat gain though a 70-75% muscle gain is more common since people generally have unrealistic expectations for how much muscle it's possible to gain and overfeed too much when 'bulking'. Most people's optimum calorie surplus actually generally lie in the 350-450kcal/d range with women tending toward the lower end of that - of course you'll see bodybuilders on 1500kcal/d surplus who gain 90% muscle but they're also generally supplementing with injected testosterone, insulin and assorted other drugs so a real human being can't really go by anything they're doing.

 Thanks for the information melkor. Calorie count tells me I need 1420 to maintain, so I'm aiming for 1600 on days I don't exercise and around 1800 on exercise days but with a focus on nutrition. I'm currently eating betwen 100 - 110g of protein a day, all from natural food rather than supplements. I'm also aiming to lift heavier weights in the gym. And I am intrigued by the p60x (I think that's what its called) DVD system which I may invest in.

I don't want to bulk up massive amounts, but I do want to gain enough muscle that I'm a healthy weight and then cut fat so that I am more cut in general. (Please note, losing fat does not mean losing weight! I know I'm technically underweight!)

Original Post by elysemh:

Hey!  I am in a similar situation as you.  I am slim, but have very little muscle definition at the moment.  I'm 5'10", 143lbs.  This is good as far as the numbers say, but I'd prefer to have more definition and less fat!  I eat healthy and do cardio, but have been totally lazy when it comes to lifting and strength training for the past few months.  Provided you are already engaged in a strength training and weight lifting regimen a 3 times per week or so on your non-cardio days, here are some things I have found in the past that help build muscle definition:

Eat 5 or 6 small meals a day instead of 3 big ones, and use a good protien shake as your after work-out meal.  Some systems that use this technique are the Body for Life plan and p90x (both are excellent systems for building and maintaining lean muscle.) Eating 6 small meals a day will keep hunger in check, keep your metabolism up and keep you from going into "starvation mode."

Supplements!  There are a lot out there in various forms of powders and shakes that will give you good protein your body can use to build muscle, without a ton of sugar and bad stuff.  My favorite pre-made shakes are Muscle Milk and Myoplex.  Both contain high levels of protien, some carbs, creatine, and little to no sugar.  As for powders, any whey protien will do to add to a shake.  Creatine is also a good muscle building supplement.  I would do some research on these to find the best.

Also, be sure you are having a good post workout snack.  Your body needs carbs and protien post work-out to speed the recovery of your worked muscles.  A shake with whey protien and high carb is a good choice for building musle as it is quickly absorbed so your body can rebuild and repair the damaged muscles to gain size and strength.

For getting totally ripped, try p90x!  It's a bootcamp style workout that is amazing at building killer lean muscle.  You would be a good candidate as you already look pretty fit.  You need to have a good base level of fitness to even start p90x, but it will get you totally ripped in 90 days.  I made it in 3 weeks and noticed visible muscle definition before I went on vacation and dropped off the program.  You may have seen info-mercials for it, but you can find it on ebay for a fraction of the price!

Another thing that seems to work for a lot of people is Yoga.  It is known to build very lean, flexible muscle.  Some classes are more strength oriented than others.

You have to eat to build muscle.  If you are working out and eating enough and correctly, your body will transform.  p90x takes the guess work out, which is nice.  

Good luck, and I hope this helps!

 Thanks for your post elysemh! I have been doing most of your recommendations, and find naturally I need to eat smaller meals often as firstly I can't stomach really large meals (I have IBS and get very bloated and feel really sleep afterwards) and secondly, I naturally need food often as if I got long without it I get hot, shakey and quite hypoglycemic. (I have been tested for diabetes but am clear!)

I'm really interested in the p90x programme, and have read up on it here on the boards. It's also quite affordable although I'd need to get some equipment. I'm just not sure if my motivation would be there if I'm not physically in the gym. I love the atmosphere in the gym and also the social aspect of classes so wouldn't want to forgo my gym time entirely if I started the p90x programme. Could I still do running 2 or 3 times a week on the treadmill if all my weight training was through these DVDs?

Sorry to sound negative, but you're 5'4 and 101 lbs, how much fat can you possibly have?

Original Post by healthisinplease:

Sorry to sound negative, but you're 5'4 and 101 lbs, how much fat can you possibly have?

Last time I measured I had 19.5% bodyfat, at the same stats. I am naturally very petite, very small bone structure. My bra measurements are 28DD (small back but large chest). If I was low on bodyfat I'm sure my body wouldn't be retaining the fat in my chest.

Take a look at my photos to see that I've got a healthy layer of fat over me, no bones sticking out. I have always been a low weight. My mum was 7 lbs lighter when she got married.

This is a common theme on these forums that when I post my stats people are convinced I am unhealthy, malnourished, and potentially have an ED. I am none of these things and only 3 weeks ago was given the 'ok' by my doctor when I had a general health check-up, initiated by myself, as I want to start training for a 10k and wanted to make sure my blood count etc. was ok. Blood count and blood pressure both excellent, nothing unusual. He weighed me and was satisfied.

Sorry to be abrupt, but I feel like I'm a broken record explaining this on here every day. I may just stop posting my stats and ask people to look at my photos instead, I feel it's a more accurate representation of my body than a BMI measurement.

Original Post by runjenrun:

Original Post by healthisinplease:

Sorry to sound negative, but you're 5'4 and 101 lbs, how much fat can you possibly have?

 

Last time I measured I had 19.5% bodyfat, at the same stats. I am naturally very petite, very small bone structure. My bra measurements are 28DD (small back but large chest). If I was low on bodyfat I'm sure my body wouldn't be retaining the fat in my chest.

Take a look at my photos to see that I've got a healthy layer of fat over me, no bones sticking out. I have always been a low weight. My mum was 7 lbs lighter when she got married.

This is a common theme on these forums that when I post my stats people are convinced I am unhealthy, malnourished, and potentially have an ED. I am none of these things and only 3 weeks ago was given the 'ok' by my doctor when I had a general health check-up, initiated by myself, as I want to start training for a 10k and wanted to make sure my blood count etc. was ok. Blood count and blood pressure both excellent, nothing unusual. He weighed me and was satisfied.

Sorry to be abrupt, but I feel like I'm a broken record explaining this on here every day. I may just stop posting my stats and ask people to look at my photos instead, I feel it's a more accurate representation of my body than a BMI measurement.

Im not indicating you have an E.D, by no means. And why do you want to get of this self-deemed HEALTHY layer of fat, if its healthy?

I have more fat on my stomach particularly than I previously have done. Clothes that used to fit and that cinched in at the waist are now tight and I have small love handles that show through clothes.

I belive that by previously eating too few calories I put my body into starvation mode and it held onto fat. That, with a combination of too much sugary carbs and glucose also being held as fat, has led to an increase in fat, a decrease in muscle and no weight change. So I want to either maintain or put on weight but increase muscle and decrease fat.

Why is it if someone is built with muscle but wants to cut their fat to a very low %, it's ok? For example, fitnessgirll's photos show her with very little fat, if no, fat and looks very healthy. I know that is an extreme example of fantastic fitness and a phsyique that I probably won't be able to acheive, but I mean I want to 'cut' fat in the way weightlifters do to show off my muscle and my developing four-pack (not quite a six-ack yet!)

One thing to note, if you are building healthy muscle, you will most likely gain a little weight.  You will be replacing the fat with muscle, and muscle naturally weighs more than fat.  It's better to be lean and strong than "skinny fat".  The mirror and body function is more important than the scale. :)  If you are an active lifestyle person, hiking with a heavy pack is great for legs, gluts, and abs!  Also it is incredibly rewarding! I just got home from a big hike this morning, so i'm totally stoked on it.  I'm gonna be sore tomorrow! :D

i've looked at your pics and aside from a couple of visible muscles, you look very thin.  i think the only way you're going to get rid of the mid-body "fat" is to completely clean up your diet: plant based fats, complex carbs, no caffeine or refined sugars, etc.  being at such a low BMI already is going to make it really hard for you to lose weight at all let alone "spot reduce" specific "fat" areas.

i'd suggest you quit worrying about losing any more weight and start to work on gaining muscle by eating a small surplus.

Original Post by leanerandmeaner:

i've looked at your pics and aside from a couple of visible muscles, you look very thin.  i think the only way you're going to get rid of the mid-body "fat" is to completely clean up your diet: plant based fats, complex carbs, no caffeine or refined sugars, etc.  being at such a low BMI already is going to make it really hard for you to lose weight at all let alone "spot reduce" specific "fat" areas.

i'd suggest you quit worrying about losing any more weight and start to work on gaining muscle by eating a small surplus.

 

 Thanks for your concern. As I've said, I've been to a doctor with the same concerns as you and he did numerous tests and gave me the all clear. He said whilst I was light on the scales and quite slim, I had a healthy level of fat, excellent blood count, excellent blood pressure, I'm very fit but seem to eat well so there's nothing to worry about. I explained my dislike of body fat but also my desire to build muscle and maintain a healthy, active lifestyle and know I need to eat well to do this. I at times have questioned my own relationship with my body image and fat but again he seemed satisfied that I'm just health-aware (something that is lacking in Scotland generally!)

I am doing just as you said - gaining weight and eating a small surplus. I have increased my calories from 1400 - 1600/1700 a day and am lifting much heavier muscles and incorporating protein into my diet. My original point behind this post was querying if it's possible to burn fat in the way that weight lifters 'cut' to become more defined, whilst buidling muscle. I do weights three times a week, and know I'm doing it well as I lift heavy and to the point of exhaustion where I can't lift another set. So I know I have muscle to show off but currently have a layer of fat covering it. I want to look defined and toned, not lose any weight or mass.

Thanks for the advice! I was aware that muscle is heavier than fat and so I'm looking to put on 6lbs or so over the next two months, but mainly of lean muscle mass. I know I may put on a bit of fat with this but I want to do it slowly, with healthy diet and weight lifting, rather than severly increasing my calories per day and putting on a few lbs from water retention and immediate fat storage!