Full body workouts vs. working one region

I'm trying to remember why people argue that it's better to do full body workouts with rest days than alternate between body parts (e.g., upper body one day, lower body the next day).

Any thoughts? Research on this is particularly appreciated...I'm trying to make the argument to a research-minded friend of mine.

I think upper/lower splits are fine (although I'd do a full rest day between them - if you are lifting more than, what, 3hrs per week, you are probably over doing it, so doing half the body every day of the week would be too much).

What I've heard argued against is having a day of "legs," a day of "bis/tris," a day of "chest," and a day of "back." If you split it up too much, it's almost guaranteeing that you are going to avoid compound exercises that work multiple parts in favor of the isolation movements that aren't as useful, but are easier to categorize.

That's my take on it. I'm sure melkor will have a better explanation.

lol I've been known to *argue* both sides of the point in the forums! haha

My FOR splits argument: they are simple and easy to follow for a beginner who might not know all the types of machines, exercises, and is a little daunted by everything. It helps to understand each part and what it feels like when sore. I think it's also good for advanced people to go back to it occasionally for the same reason....a back to basics if you will. Also, I find it easier to split when my workout has a lot of supersets in it. Compounding and supersetting can get confusing! haha.....and I think by the end of a full body workout, whichever area you are working out last is pretty tired by the end, possibly hindering the quality of the exercise.

My AGAINST splits argument: compound exercises work so many more muscles in the body, which enhance muscle building/fat burning. They tend to be more 'natural' movements as opposed to many isolation exercises, and most 'full body' trainings have a lot of compound movements in them.....

Splitting up a weight lifting program is fine, the problem is that people split based on where muscles are and not what they do.  You're body is designed so that many muscles work together to accomplish a movement, it's not just a bunch of randomly thrown together 'parts' to be trained individually.

 It depends on where you are in terms of training - there's a dose-response curve to training and for beginners whole-body training maximises it.

 Once you're out of the beginner stage your dose-response curve alters and the optimum program to progress shifts to something more like an upper/lower or push/pull split because you need more recovery time due to the higher intensity and volume of exercise in each training session.

 So there's no practical sense in which one is superior to the other at all times for everyone, it depends on your current training age more than anything. I note that according to "Pratical programming 75% of people will never need anything more complicated than an upper/lower or push/pull split with the occacional rest week, because that's all you need as an intermediate trainee.

 Using advanced training strategies like conjugate periodization and body part splits when your dose-response curve dictates that what you need is to squat 3 times a week and add weight each time just limits your progress.

I think most beginners alternate between upper and lower so they can lift every day- this would be a mistake, correct? Even if you're alternating, you should rest between lifting days?

i think they both have their place. my tris & calves are suffering a bit since im only doing compound moves now, but i've filled out in other places that i never took notice of before. and im burning more calories! but once i get most of my body back into a great shape i will however go back to working on my tris & calves in isolation, & chest. but i dont have time really to work those specific parts AND do everything else in the gym. there's just not enough time for me.

Weight lifting/resistance training workouts for me go like this:

Monday, Wednesday, Friday only (alternating upper body and lower body)

Example:

Week 1

Mon.- upper body

Wed.- lower body

Fri.- upper body

Week 2

Mon- lower body

Wed- upper body

Fri- lower body 

and so on ...

Upper body includes chest, triceps, back, shoulders and biceps

Lower body includes quads, hamstrings, calves and abs

I do interval training which starts at a low exertion level (light weights) and increases (heavier weights) with the reps: 12 reps, 10 reps, 8 reps, 6 reps (1 minute rest in between), 12 reps, 12 reps (no rest in between)

After this I rest for 2 minutes before moving on to the next muscle group.  Each session takes about 40-50 minutes to complete.

It is crucial that you allow your muscle groups a day of rest in between.  Abs are the only muscle group that CAN BE worked out every single day with no ill effects.  If you don't allow rest, your muscles do not have adequate to build and repair themselves.  Thus, you are essentially un-doing your previous day's work.  Hope that helps.

Try browsing this site:

http://www.t-nation.com/ALSAuthorsCat.do

I recently read an article there by Alwyn Cosgrove that suggested that for most people, full body workouts three times a week were more effective than splits,  but I can't remember which article it was.  All very interesting reading, nonetheless and Cosgrove often quotes references.  I find his suggestions very effective and have lost ten pounds of fat recently by using complexes in addition to some more traditional lifting.

Original Post by oddfunk:

 Abs are the only muscle group that CAN BE worked out every single day with no ill effects.

Source? 

Oddfunk-sounds like you are doing Body-for-Life.  Are you?  I did that program 5 years ago with successful results.  I think I remember that book saying you could work your abs every day without ill effects.

I'm not so sure this constitutes as research, but I'm working with a personal trainer at my school and she told me that you need to do cardio 4-6 times a week and weight lift along with it. So my typical schedule consists of:

Mon: 15 min cardio, 45 min of strength training (lower body)

Tues: 15 min cardio, 30 min of strength training (upper body - because upper body is harder for me)

Wed: 30 min cardio - normally interval training (rest from strength training)

Thurs: 15 min cardio, 45  min of strength training (lower body)

Fri: 15 min cardio, 30 min strength training (upper body)

All I know for sure is that even if you're weight lifting it's important to combine cardio. My trainer has a master's in physical education so I trust her immensely.

Original Post by laniemox:

Oddfunk-sounds like you are doing Body-for-Life.  Are you?  I did that program 5 years ago with successful results.  I think I remember that book saying you could work your abs every day without ill effects.

Laniemox, yes it is the Body for Life way.  :)  I am not on the program in the strictest sense with my eating however.  I do incorporate the basic principles into my diet as much as I can though.  When I first read the book about 4 years ago, it blew me away.

It is by far the most sensible fitness plan I've ever encountered.  It does take discipline and planning though.  It's no fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants type deal.  The fitness regimen is something I believe in and emulate.  I also pad out my workouts with the Wii Fit I acquired about 2 weeks ago.  Overall, I think my activities are pretty well-rounded.  During my 90 day BFL challenge 4 years ago, I lost 14 pounds, 19 inches and my body fat percentage decreased by 6%.  I started at 26% and got down to 19%.  So glad to meet a fellow BFLifer on these boards and wish you the best! 

Flogging-- my source is Body for Life.  I highly recommend the read. 

OK this is kind of an unwinable debat until you throw some sort of parameters in there. Namely, what are the goals of this person and how much time do they have to workout?

From the standpoint of pure effectiveness of the workout regimen in building muscle dividing is certainly the best way to go and even further beyond upper and lower. For best results you need to follow these rules

#1 you need to work no more than 1 large muscle group (thighs, chest and back) and combine that with 1 medium group (shoulders and glutes) or 1 mmmaayyybbbeee 2 small muscle groups (biceps, triceps, forearms and calves)

#2 never work a small muscle on the same day as a large muscle that exerts that muscle alot during compound movements. For Example, never combine chest with triceps. The logic behind this is that even with perfect form the triceps will be used in compound motions like bench press so they will already be fatigued and therefor easier to work to failureand that is true. The problem is that since the muscle is already tired from being used albeit in a secondary manner, it will never be able to be used at maximium capacity on that training day. without putting the maximium overload on the muscle you wont stimulate as much growth.

#3 never work muscles that are anatomically distant from one another i.e. never work forearms and calves on the same day.

The reason for #1 and #3 is protein synthesis. There is a saying that 25% of fitness comes from the gym and 75% from the kitchen. Your body can only deliver so much protein at any given time, and your body is not a 100% efficient system. If you were to work chest and back both to maximium overload in one workout your body would be unable to keep up with the demands of both muscle groups for protein. If you worked out forearms and say thighs, then the inefficiency of the bodies nutritional delivery system would cause higher loss because 2 completly different pathways would be being used. Leading to less post-workout development.

Hope that wins it for you, reply or msg with any question

Original Post by luckguy67:

OK this is kind of an unwinable debat until you throw some sort of parameters in there. Namely, what are the goals of this person and how much time do they have to workout?

From the standpoint of pure effectiveness of the workout regimen in building muscle dividing is certainly the best way to go and even further beyond upper and lower. For best results you need to follow these rules

#1 you need to work no more than 1 large muscle group (thighs, chest and back) and combine that with 1 medium group (shoulders and glutes) or 1 mmmaayyybbbeee 2 small muscle groups (biceps, triceps, forearms and calves)

#2 never work a small muscle on the same day as a large muscle that exerts that muscle alot during compound movements. For Example, never combine chest with triceps. The logic behind this is that even with perfect form the triceps will be used in compound motions like bench press so they will already be fatigued and therefor easier to work to failureand that is true. The problem is that since the muscle is already tired from being used albeit in a secondary manner, it will never be able to be used at maximium capacity on that training day. without putting the maximium overload on the muscle you wont stimulate as much growth.

#3 never work muscles that are anatomically distant from one another i.e. never work forearms and calves on the same day.

The reason for #1 and #3 is protein synthesis. There is a saying that 25% of fitness comes from the gym and 75% from the kitchen. Your body can only deliver so much protein at any given time, and your body is not a 100% efficient system. If you were to work chest and back both to maximium overload in one workout your body would be unable to keep up with the demands of both muscle groups for protein. If you worked out forearms and say thighs, then the inefficiency of the bodies nutritional delivery system would cause higher loss because 2 completly different pathways would be being used. Leading to less post-workout development.

Hope that wins it for you, reply or msg with any question

You can do chest and triceps on the same day as long as you do the smaller body part after the large muscle group.

Here is Ronnie Coleman's workout - I usually go a bit heavier, but it's ok for a beginner.

Monday: Back

Deadlifts - 805lbs - 4 sets - 6-12 reps
Barbell rows - 585lbs - 3 sets - 10-12 reps
T-bar rows - 585lbs - 3 sets - 10 - 12 reps
One-arm dumbbell rows - 200lbs - 3 sets 10-12 reps

Biceps

Barbell curls - 200lbs - 4 sets -12 reps
Seated alternate dumbbell curls - 90lbs - 12 reps
Cambered-bar preacher curls - 150lbs - 12 reps
Standing cable curls - 200lbs

Shoulders

Military presses - 315lbs - 4 sets - 10-12 reps
Seated dumbbell presses - 170lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
superset with
Front dumbbell presses - 60lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps

Tuesday : Legs

Squats - 800lbs - 5-6 sets - 2-12 reps
Leg presses - 2,500 lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
Parking-lot lunges - 315lbs - 2 sets - 100 yards
Stiff-leg deadlifts - 315lbs -3 sets - 12 reps
Seated leg curls - 200 lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps

Wednesday : Chest

Bench presses - 500lbs - 5 sets - 12 reps
Incline barbell presses - 405lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps
Flat dumbbell presses - 200lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps
Flat flyes - 130lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps

Triceps

Seated cambered-bar extensions - 215lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps
Seated dumbbell extensions - 170lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
Close-grip bench presses - 350lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps

Thursday: Back

Barbell rows - 585lbs - 5 sets - 10 - 12 reps
Pulley Rows - 400lbs - 4 sets - 10 - 12 reps
Machine pulldowns - 350lbs - 3 sets - 10 - 12 reps
Front pulldowns - 350lbs - 3 sets - 10 - 12 reps

Biceps :

Incline alternate dumbbell curls - 90lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
Machine curls - 200lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps
superset with
Standing cable curls - 200lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps

Shoulders :

Seated dumbbell presses - 170lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
Front dumbbell rasies - 60lbs - 3 sets - 8 - 25 reps
Machine rasies - 250lbs - 3 sets - 8 - 25 reps

Friday: Legs

Leg extensions - 300lbs - 4 sets - 30 reps
Front squats - 585lbs - 4 sets - 12 - 15 reps
Hack squats - 900lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps
Standing leg curls - 125lbs - 3 sets - 12 - 15 reps
Lying leg curls - 200lbs - 4 sets -

Saturday : Chest

Incline dumbbell presses - 200lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
Decline barbell presses - 500lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps
Incline dumbbell flyes - 130lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps
Decline dumbbell presses - 170lbs - 3 sets - 12 reps

Triceps :

Lying cambered-bar extensions - 215lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
triset with
Machine dips - 360lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
triset with
Seated cambered-bar extensions - 215lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps

Addintionally :

Calves ( twice a week )

Donkey rasies - 450lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps
Seated rasies - 270lbs - 4 sets - 12 reps

Abs ( four times a week )

Crunches - 3 sets - failure

Sunday : Rest

http://muscleandmight.com/Articles/Ronnie-Col eman-s-Workout-Routine.html

Original Post by vancouvergrind:

Here is Ronnie Coleman's workout - I usually go a bit heavier, but it's ok for a beginner.

 Why would the workout done by a 'chemically enhanced' genetic freak be 'ok' for a beginner? If someone was just starting out swimming would you say Michael Phelps' workout would be 'ok' for them?

Original Post by luckguy67:

#1 you need to work no more than 1 large muscle group (thighs, chest and back) and combine that with 1 medium group (shoulders and glutes) or 1 mmmaayyybbbeee 2 small muscle groups (biceps, triceps, forearms and calves)

#2 never work a small muscle on the same day as a large muscle that exerts that muscle alot during compound movements. For Example, never combine chest with triceps. The logic behind this is that even with perfect form the triceps will be used in compound motions like bench press so they will already be fatigued and therefor easier to work to failureand that is true. The problem is that since the muscle is already tired from being used albeit in a secondary manner, it will never be able to be used at maximium capacity on that training day. without putting the maximium overload on the muscle you wont stimulate as much growth.

#3 never work muscles that are anatomically distant from one another i.e. never work forearms and calves on the same day.

1) Dividing your body up into a bunch of 'parts' or 'groups' doesn't make any sense.  Your body is designed for many muscles to work together to accomplish a movement, it isn't just a bunch of random 'parts' thrown together to be worked seperately.  And if you're doing compound movements (exercises that work your body the way it was designed to work) it isn't possible not to hit more than one of your 'big muscle groups' on the same day.

2) The 'small muscles' (biceps, triceps, etc) have set purposes.  The tricep, for example, straitens the arm at the elbow.  It doesn't matter if the arm is straitening as part of a bench press or a tricep extension, the tricep is doing the same thing and working just as hard.  But, as part of a compound movement, the tricep is working proportionately to other muscles the way it was designed to, which decreases the chances of developing a muscle imbalance which could lead to injury

2a) Isolating small muscles does not stimulate growth (at least no more than just doing compound exercises).  Studies have shown that lifters who do only compound exercises don't have any less size and strength gains in their upper arms as those who do the same compound exercises and add in bicep and tricep isolation work.

3) I'd love to see any sort of reliable source say that how far apart muscles are has anything to do with how fast they recover if worked together. 

Wow, this thread has really devolved into a lot of misinformed nonsense.

PTs do not count as researchers, for the record.

lol kinda fun to read though!

I understand that a personal trainer is not a researcher, however I think I would trust one over someone who claims to have done their own "research." She has a masters, therefor she passed some sort of tests that say she knows what she's talking about. Its her job to know.

Original Post by rachellejonesrowe:

Its her job to know.

 It's her job to convince people she knows.