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Why do guys lie (For Guys)?

Okay, this is a question for the very small contingent of guys out there.

I've noticed on multiple posts that men will try to repsond by saying something to the effect, "Men like a little meat on your bones".  My hypothesis is that this comment could be a result of a handful of different thought processes and I'm trying to figure out which one.

1. Standard guy attempt to pick up said girl through compliment (insincere). 

2. Man X has been overweight, therefore has lower standards and thus is more accustomed to heavier women.

3. Truth, guy just digs heavier women.

4. Encouragement...probably insincere...but just trying to be encouraging in their weight loss efforts.

5. Other...I had one more but forgot what it was...

See, I just don't see it.  I understand to each their own...but everytime I hear a guy say that, it makes me immediately think they are either lieing or have low standards.  Because to be totally honest...I've never met a guy that would take Rosanne Barr (minus the personality) over a swimsuit model.  I mean, okay, if you're debating between a runway model and a size 8 woman...maybe you guy size 8 because a girl that is "too" skinny is kind've gross...but when guys say things like "Paris Hilton is too skinny...I'd rather have a plus size woman any day!"  What!  That's rediculous!  Knowing guys, it makes me think that the same exact guy is on an eating disorder website posting that Ally McBeal is too fat.

I mean, I understand choice 1, 2 and even 4...but choice 3 is called a "fetish"...not a preference in my opinion.  And 2 quick rules...

1. This is meant to be an honest discussion, it is not meant to offend, and please don't respond with the Oprah/Tyra/Ellen answer of "loving people for their inner beauty...because I ate a pear today that isn't sitting well and I don't want it to come up.  Will some women find this topic offensive?  I haven't met a group of women where at least one didn't find something offensive so probably yes.  And I'm sure at least one guy will as well to try to impress said woman from aforementioned group.  I didn't post this in the "motivation and support" forum...just in the lounge...fun discussion...if it raises your blood pressure...there are thousands of posts about bunnies, and flowers, and Martha's new recipe for Almond pie that you can post at...just hit the back button once and breathe.

2. The answer, "I like bigger women because they are more willing to do "X, Y and Z"...to me that's a horrible answer because that's nothing more than preying on low self esteem.  I understand a swimsuit model would probably have higher expectations and be "high maintenance", but meeting higher expectations isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Original Post by hannahb20:

Okay, FIRST OF ALL, DONT YOU KNOW YOUR ART PERIODS? 

guilty as charged.  and sort of proud of that.

Original Post by andie-joe:

I'm just curious about a couple of things and wonder what your answers would be? 

Q. If you suck ass hard enough will you implode?

Q. What are your opinions of women chasing and flirting with married men with kids?

Q. What are your opinions of women who can't think for themselves and run around behind someone just agreeing with absolutely everything they say to try and get in their favour?

Wow!  And the classy ladies just keep popping in with their delightfulness!

1. I imagine you would.  Go try it.
2. I guess I would want to know why they choose to do that.  Supposedly married men are very attractive to women...which is a complete crock as far as I'm concerned because I can't recall ever being hit on since being married.
3. The same way I feel about men who act the same way.  It's usually a sign of low self esteem.

My turn.  Quid pro quo Clarice.

1. Why is it that there are so many, strong, confident, free-thinking, liberal, passionate, progressive women on this site yet as soon as someone makes a post that takes an alternative position, the women suddenly behave like 7th graders on myspace?
2. Are you married?
3. Is my opinion more threatening to the lonely women struggling to find that perfect relationship, or the married women that believe they've already found it?

Original Post by caloricat:

The "friends" topic is actually an entirely different thread.  It was quite interesting as well, but not so much as related to what this thread was about (originally).  The most interesting thing about that thread was how many ladies were admitting that they were friends with guys for quite awhile and suddenly the guy came on to them and it took them by surprise...  

I've already asked girls that think male friends are a possibility to take the test.  Quite simply,  invite your friend over to watch a movie.  In the middle of the movie, go off to the bedroom, slip into something more comfortable, and come back out and try to make things physical.  If the girl is attractive (average or better)...you'll see what the real deal is.

So far there have been 2 responses that it's not a fair test because guys will have sex with anything...and 0 responses that it was attempted and did or didn't work.

Um... seducing someone doesn't exactly mean they're attracted to you... you don't even need to be attracted to a person to be seduced by a person of the opposite sex. And yes, guys will screw anything (within reason).

Original Post by cptbunn

Um... seducing someone doesn't exactly mean they're attracted to you... you don't even need to be attracted to a person to be seduced by a person of the opposite sex. And yes, guys will screw anything (within reason).

Very true, I was seduced by a girl in college that I loathed and didn't even find physically attractive, I don't know how that happened. Maybe that is how babies are made, but thank god no baby came out of that!

It could also explain why girls have overprotective friends when they go to clubs and bars. Women can be seduced by men they don't know with great ease, so the friends are there to protect them from that. The environment in those places can be very euphoric with flashing lights, high energy, alcohol, dancing, sexual tension, music with sexual rhythms. It's the only context where you can make out with a complete stranger and it's totally acceptable.

Guys won't screw anything, I can think of a lot of women that I wouldn't even touch with a 40 foot pole. haha... But with enough alcohol and desperation, anything is possible I guess.

Original Post by caloricat:

Original Post by andie-joe:

Wow!  And the classy ladies just keep popping in with their delightfulness!

1. I imagine you would.  Go try it.
2. I guess I would want to know why they choose to do that.  Supposedly married men are very attractive to women...which is a complete crock as far as I'm concerned because I can't recall ever being hit on since being married.
3. The same way I feel about men who act the same way.  It's usually a sign of low self esteem.

My turn.  Quid pro quo Clarice.

1. Why is it that there are so many, strong, confident, free-thinking, liberal, passionate, progressive women on this site yet as soon as someone makes a post that takes an alternative position, the women suddenly behave like 7th graders on myspace?
2. Are you married?
3. Is my opinion more threatening to the lonely women struggling to find that perfect relationship, or the married women that believe they've already found it?

 ha ha ha The Q.s weren't actually directed at you, it was sarcasm about another. And there is nothing wrong with my class.

1) No idea they will have to answer that, but I haven't seen anyone behaving as you say.

2) No and I have no desire to be either, marriage isn't every womans dream, nor does every woman need it to feel complete. I would only do it if I had to for some reason. My bf would back this up as I have turned him down twice.

3) Again they will need to answer that. I don't find it threatening as I have never had any problem getting a man, but the implications of it are rather insulting to women the suggestion that men have to settle for them!

fortius/cpt-

See, here's where I differ a bit.  I don't know why, but for some reason I have "standards".  My friends don't...other men I talk to and work with don't...so I'll accept that I'm in the minority on this one.

But to me, I've had girls pretty much come right out and ask for sex, while I was intoxicated, and i had very little trouble turning them down.  For me, my ummm..."unit"...probably wouldn't even "rise to the occasion" if some girl I thought of as unattractive or just wasn't interested in tried to "seduce" me.  I'm not saying I have NEARLY enough data on this as I would like to have...would have loved to have more women TRY to seduce me...but in instances I can recall...I haven't had that problem.

On the other hand, I have been in and known COUNTLESS instances where guys play the "friend game" and it almost always ends in disaster.  I've wasted so much time in my youth pretending to be a girl's friend "waiting for my shot" only to be disappointed that the girl just isn't interested in me like that.  I've seen guys spend a year or more sitting around listening to a girl they wanted terribly while she talked to them about how her boyfriend was a jerk.  But at the end of the day, the girl either stays with her boyfriend or finds a new one...but "friend guy" just gets disappointed.  I think this is a more difficult concept for women to grasp (in general) because men are usually cautious enough not to expose themselves until there is some certainty that they will get the reaction they are looking for. 

• I met a girl my freshmen year, we were "friends" for a semester...she'd complain about her boyfriend constantly...that she thought he was cheating on her, etc...  One weekend, they break up, the next week she's kissing a guy she hooked up with at a frat party that weekend and now they are going out.
• I met a girl my sophomore year...I was one of her MANY male friends.  She always seemed to have a boyfriend...loved to go out with her male friends...one weekend she meets an older guy at a bar...next week she's going out with him...much to her many "male friends" dismay.
• And my junior year...I walked a girl to class every morning.  She had a boyfriend who was a complete jerk...but every morning she'd wake up next to him, kiss him goodbye, then walk to class with me...her "male friend."  Now eventually, the 2 broke up and I got word of it soon enough to make a move.  I asked her out, she said yes, we went out.  She said she had a great time....went back to her rooom...message from boyfriend on message machine...bingo bango, she wants to go back to being "friends".

These are just a few personal examples...like I said, COUNTLESS.  I've always thought girls realized it and just liked the attention and dragging guys around on leashes.  It didn't occur to me that they actually bought it that a guy who is attracted to you is cool "just being friends".

did you really just imply that someone else is classless?

i needed a laugh today.

i see that you really enjoy seeing your own posts appear, but really, don't you think it's time to let this thread go? if you want to see your own words on the screen so bad, that's what journals are for.

let. it. die.

Original Post by andie-joe:

 ha ha ha The Q.s weren't actually directed at you, it was sarcasm about another. And there is nothing wrong with my class.

1) No idea they will have to answer that, but I haven't seen anyone behaving as you say.

2) No and I have no desire to be either, marriage isn't every womans dream, nor does every woman need it to feel complete. I would only do it if I had to for some reason. My bf would back this up as I have turned him down twice.

3) Again they will need to answer that. I don't find it threatening as I have never had any problem getting a man, but the implications of it are rather insulting to women the suggestion that men have to settle for them!

 My bad, I thought you were talking to me.

I find your answer to #2 intriguing.  I would guess that you are older than 30 and financially stable...perhaps there is no value in it for you.  Interesting.

See, I didn't say men "have to" settle...I said at some point men "decide" to settle.  It's kind of like "Deal or no Deal".  At some point, you can stop...and take the money.  There are better "cases" out there...but maybe you're getting old and want to start a family, maybe you've been with the girl long enough that you don't want to start a whole new relationship, or any host of reasons.  And maybe you're "offer" is so good that it's only a remote chance (one case) that there's something better out there.  Or maybe there's a 50/50 shot at more money but you're at a stage where you want to move on.  And ther are 4 possible outcomes:

1. You settle and she's such a great gal that you only rarely see/meet a girl that makes you think..."hmmmm...."
2. You settle and realize it was a horrible a choice and that "virtually every case had more money in it"
3. You don't settle, move on, meet a girl that you're more comfortable settling on.
4. You don't settle...you keep "turning down the banker"...and pretty soon you're 46 and sitting in a bar trying to decide between the 25 year old with 2 young kids on Riddelin and an ex boyfriend in prison or a 45 year old divorcee with the personality of a lawn tractor.

See, it's not settling becuase you have to...it's settling because the bankers offer may just keep going down.  And this same logic applies to women...not just men.  And the people that refute this...are the people that believe that out of some "cosmic luck", they happened to fall in love with their "soulmate"...that out of 3.5 billion potential mates, their mate just happen to grow up in the same country, same state, go to the same school, declare the same major, attend the same class, sit next to them on a Tuesday....and BOOM...true love...  Come on, the odds of that are about the same as getting hit by lightening the same moment you find out that you won the lottery.  Now he may be one of the top 5%...you may have gotten lucky...but at the end of the day you are "settling" on him because you don't feel like it's in your best interest to spend your remaing years searching for the top 4%.

Original Post by jules817:

did you really just imply that someone else is classless?

i needed a laugh today.

i see that you really enjoy seeing your own posts appear, but really, don't you think it's time to let this thread go? if you want to see your own words on the screen so bad, that's what journals are for.

let. it. die.

 Hi Jules!!  Do you realize you were the first ever person to respond to this thread?  That's cool.

Check out post #514...I already made an offer to let it die if those conditions are met.

I've always thought girls realized it and just liked the attention and dragging guys around on leashes.  It didn't occur to me that they actually bought it that a guy who is attracted to you is cool "just being friends".

There are some women/girls who do just like the male attention and dragging guys around on leashes. I don't believe the majority of women do this, but the ones that do usually get a lot of attention/notoreity so it may seem to you that lots of women do this.

From my perspective, if I have a male friend that I consider just a friend, it means I'm not attracted to him in a sexual/romantic manner. It is very unlikely that anything he does is going to change that. Over my lifetime I have developed an attraction to a male friend once, maybe twice. My advice to men on this issue is if a girl/woman sees you as just a friend, she's probably not going to develop an attraction. If you want to be friends with her, go ahead. Don't invest a bunch of time in her thinking she'll pick you next.

On the other hand, I have been in and known COUNTLESS instances where guys play the "friend game" and it almost always ends in disaster.  I've wasted so much time in my youth pretending to be a girl's friend

The key words here are play game and pretend. They are the reason for the disappointment and bad endings. When a man plays games and pretends something it's not real. Quit pretending and quit playing games.

See, here's where I differ a bit.  I don't know why, but for some reason I have "standards".  My friends don't...other men I talk to and work with don't...so I'll accept that I'm in the minority on this one.

Some men will shag anything. Some women will shag anything. Men seem to fall into this category more than women, and I believe that is part physical/hormonal based and part of it is culture/society based. Some people have a certain thing that is a deal breaker that others find silly. A few anecdotal stories as examples:

• A young guy 20ish I worked with for several years would bang anything when he got drunk. He got teased for ending up with big women. He didn't care as long as he got some. By the way he was tall, blonde, good looking, and probably could have gone home with better looking women at times. I think he secretly enjoyed big women and was free to do so when drunk, cuz he could laugh it off. He was also known to go home with much older women, 40's.
• A girl I knew would turn men down based on their teeth. It didn't matter how else they looked or even how much money they had, but bad teeth were a deal breaker.
• A guy I knew would turn down a very hot woman if she had thick ankles. He called them cankles and it grossed him out.
• A good friend of mine was short and pretty heavy. She had a big ass. I mean a real big one. She was probably 60-70 lbs. overweight. She never had trouble finding men to take her home when she wanted. She exuded an aura around her and the men kind of stood in line. They didn't even see her weight for the most part, except one. She was on a mission to seduce him, because she wasn't used to being turned down, but he never gave in.

 

 

I've been in the Let's just be Friend situation as well—c'est HORRIBLE!

I use to be the guy that listened to her whine and cry about other guys as well, and thought maybe if i analyzed her and proved to her that I wasn't an A-hole like the guys she complained about, then she would want me. I was her emotional tampon.

Take This thread for example. I know this girl has male friends, and they all will console her and comfort her, but none of them will end up dating her. She will say,"He cheated on me! He ignored me! He is such a prick!" And they all will agree with her and listen to her and secretly celebrate that the BF is gone! But what will happen is she will end up finding someone not in her male friend's circle. 

I made myself what every woman wanted, even though no woman knew what they wanted, and it proved it by my many female friendships. 

I made some rules to prevent the dreaded "Let's just Be Friends" Speech and thereafter be trapped within the dreaded friend category. I lead the conversation away from any talk about her boyfriend or negative emotions; i.e. "He sucks! he cheated on me!" then I reply with "I went out last night and...". I want to subcommincate that I don't want to waste my time talking about her boyfriend, sorry to be insensitive, but I don't really care—MOVE ON.

Negative emotions pull down the conversation and it associates me with terrible things, and also makes me the listener. The listener is someone who just sits there and listens, the talker could be talking to no one and probably does talk to themselves while alone, but having a listener makes it less weird. It's a one-sided interview mode conversation where the talker goes off on this self-absorbed monologue—hot girls are notorious for doing this and the only way to keep the "conversation" going is to ASK MORE QUESTIONS to supply the detestable MONOLOGUE of DOOM. Becoming the listener is a sure fire way to become friends with someone, but never really become a true friend, just some acquaintance with no particular value.

I don't try to analyze her, I don't try to please her, I talk about what I want, and I don't ask questions or make statements in reference to her that often (a way to make her the listener and exercise my importance). If she talking negative about a guy or complaining about him, it can mean she likes him. Sitting there and listening to her problems with men is as detrimental to attraction as a conversation about religion in a room full of drunk Islamic extremists and Christian Americans.

Wow...2 posts in a row that are pretty much right on...and their not by me.  Congrats.

I can't respond to each right now, but I'll be back later.

 My bad, I thought you were talking to me.

I find your answer to #2 intriguing.  I would guess that you are older than 30 and financially stable...perhaps there is no value in it for you.  Interesting.

See, I didn't say men "have to" settle...I said at some point men "decide" to settle.  It's kind of like "Deal or no Deal".  At some point, you can stop...and take the money.  There are better "cases" out there...but maybe you're getting old and want to start a family, maybe you've been with the girl long enough that you don't want to start a whole new relationship, or any host of reasons.  And maybe you're "offer" is so good that it's only a remote chance (one case) that there's something better out there.  Or maybe there's a 50/50 shot at more money but you're at a stage where you want to move on.  And ther are 4 possible outcomes:

1. You settle and she's such a great gal that you only rarely see/meet a girl that makes you think..."hmmmm...."
2. You settle and realize it was a horrible a choice and that "virtually every case had more money in it"
3. You don't settle, move on, meet a girl that you're more comfortable settling on.
4. You don't settle...you keep "turning down the banker"...and pretty soon you're 46 and sitting in a bar trying to decide between the 25 year old with 2 young kids on Riddelin and an ex boyfriend in prison or a 45 year old divorcee with the personality of a lawn tractor.

See, it's not settling becuase you have to...it's settling because the bankers offer may just keep going down.  And this same logic applies to women...not just men.  And the people that refute this...are the people that believe that out of some "cosmic luck", they happened to fall in love with their "soulmate"...that out of 3.5 billion potential mates, their mate just happen to grow up in the same country, same state, go to the same school, declare the same major, attend the same class, sit next to them on a Tuesday....and BOOM...true love...  Come on, the odds of that are about the same as getting hit by lightening the same moment you find out that you won the lottery.  Now he may be one of the top 5%...you may have gotten lucky...but at the end of the day you are "settling" on him because you don't feel like it's in your best interest to spend your remaing years searching for the top 4%.

 Curiosity as caused me to post again, what do you find so interesting about my answer to #2?

I'm still digesting the rest of the above.............

BLEUGH! Caloricat, you seriously make me glad that **** guys tend to be heterosexual. Every time I hear some bloke whinging about how girls never like the nice guy I think of this comic.

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp02142004.s html

Girls dont want the "nice guy" because he's co-dependent, manipulative and fakes sensitivity to get into a girl's pants.

Original Post by sableandargent:

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp02142004.s html

Girls dont want the "nice guy" because he's co-dependent, manipulative and fakes sensitivity to get into a girl's pants.

And us heterosexuals are happy we're heterosexuals as well...thanks I guess...

I would argue that girls tend to prefer the "not nice guy" because of primarily 3 reasons:

1. Evolution: The genetic tendency to prefer the strongest, healthiest, and wealthiest to continue on her genetic line.
2. History: Many women will stay with guys that aren't that good for them just because sometimes the "Devil that ya know, is better than the Devil that ya don't."
3. Strength and Confidence: It's oddly true that as soon as you don't want a girl's attention anymore, you tend to get it.  If you act like you could care less whether she talks to you or not, she tends to talk to you.  It goes back to that "always wanting what you don't/can't have". 

Original Post by moonikins:

Some men will shag anything. Some women will shag anything. Men seem to fall into this category more than women, and I believe that is part physical/hormonal based and part of it is culture/society based. Some people have a certain thing that is a deal breaker that others find silly. A few anecdotal stories as examples:

• A young guy 20ish I worked with for several years would bang anything when he got drunk. He got teased for ending up with big women. He didn't care as long as he got some. By the way he was tall, blonde, good looking, and probably could have gone home with better looking women at times. I think he secretly enjoyed big women and was free to do so when drunk, cuz he could laugh it off. He was also known to go home with much older women, 40's.
• A girl I knew would turn men down based on their teeth. It didn't matter how else they looked or even how much money they had, but bad teeth were a deal breaker.
• A guy I knew would turn down a very hot woman if she had thick ankles. He called them cankles and it grossed him out.
• A good friend of mine was short and pretty heavy. She had a big ass. I mean a real big one. She was probably 60-70 lbs. overweight. She never had trouble finding men to take her home when she wanted. She exuded an aura around her and the men kind of stood in line. They didn't even see her weight for the most part, except one. She was on a mission to seduce him, because she wasn't used to being turned down, but he never gave in.

moonikins-

Interesting take from a female perspective that girls tend not to "change their mind".  That's probably true.  I have seen guys "play the game" successfully...I played the game successfully on one occasion...but I think I agree with you.  Where guys usually find success at it is if you can make a move at the right moment, take advantage of someone on a rebound or in a weakened state due to a previous relationship.

As to the bullet points in your post:

• he sounds like a guy that loved getting laid.  I can't fault him...but guys like that tend to bug me when they start bragging that they nailed >60 women when 57 of them looked like Nel Carter.  I doubt he "dug big girls"...but that's because I have an obvious bias.
• Guys have similar "dealbreakers".  I had a friend that wouldn't date women who smoked or women with short hair.  For me, I have a problem with women that have an excessive amount of body hair or hair in areas they shouldn't.  I once gave up a chance at what probably would have been very good sex with a girl just because she had hairy arms...I sort of regret that now but at the time it really grossed me out.
• See point #1.  The big girl wasn't getting laid because of an "aura"...she was getting laid because every guy at the bar knew she'd lower her standards due to her size.  At least that's what I've seen.  It's simple probability...a guy like me that sticks to standards...might get pick up a girl 1 out of 10 times.  If a guy excepts anything with a heartbeat...he could raise that success rate to 9 out of 10 in a 50/50 environment.

That last point reminds me of something I was thinking about last week.  I've seen alot of girls post that they know big women that get picked up or hit on because of "confidence".  I'm not sure what that means....from my experience, "big girls that have confidence" is interpreted by many of the men I've been out with as a "girl that doesn't have the looks to justify that attitude".  In other words, guys tend to expect that very attractive women are going to have attitudes and be harder to get.  When a girl that is unattractive (and I realize I'm generalizing when I use that word) has that same "attitude"...guys just laugh at her and shake their head.  I don't know, maybe that's not the "aura" you were talking about.

Original Post by fortius:

I was her emotional tampon.

Take This thread for example. I know this girl has male friends, and they all will console her and comfort her, but none of them will end up dating her. 

I made some rules to prevent the dreaded "Let's just Be Friends" Speech and thereafter be trapped within the dreaded friend category. 

That term is SWEET!

The thing that gets me about that thread you are talking about is...that's like the HOTTEST chick on this entire website...and she's crying about a bad relationship.  What's the over/under on how many hours it takes her to get pretty much whatever guy she wants when her current relationship ends?  I'd say...8-9 hours, maybe as much as 48 if it's during the week and there's more girls than guys in her geographic area.  But C'MON!!  You look like that and you're sweatin a loser with a fixation on a couch dwelling ex!?  Hell...if I wasn't married...and if she wasn't COMPLETELY out of my league...I'd cut off a finger to get with her.  And she knows it....she KNOWS she's hot enough to have anyone she wants...she's just playing the chick game where she wants everybody to tell her how great she is...just an ego stroke...

As to the "rules"...I learned my lesson as well.  Unfortunately, it makes you bitter and there were probably some girls worth a greater effort to pursue but after "enough is enough"...you tend to lose patience rather quickly.  I ran into the brother of the girl that yanked me around my sophomore year and he told me his sister said hello and wanted to have me call her...I think he was pretty shocked at my reaction that I essentially had no intent of calling her nor did I care what she was up to.  She had her chance, used up her "attention" as far as I was concerned.

Original Post by caloricat:

I would argue that girls tend to prefer the "not nice guy" because of primarily 3 reasons:

1. Evolution: The genetic tendency to prefer the strongest, healthiest, and wealthiest to continue on her genetic line.
2. History: Many women will stay with guys that aren't that good for them just because sometimes the "Devil that ya know, is better than the Devil that ya don't."
3. Strength and Confidence: It's oddly true that as soon as you don't want a girl's attention anymore, you tend to get it.  If you act like you could care less whether she talks to you or not, she tends to talk to you.  It goes back to that "always wanting what you don't/can't have". 

 Caloricat, the reason why women stick with or constantly choose bad boys or abusers is mostly due to learned behavior in their childhood. Girls watch what their mothers do. They watch what their fathers do. If their father treats their mother like a piece of meat or constantly tells her she's stupid, then it is highly likely that the girl will grow up to choose someone who treats her this way.

Boys also watch their mothers and fathers. They will grow up to treat their girlfriends very similar to the way their father treated their mother. They will learn their father's attitudes about women.

I know this from experience. I lived it. I've watched countless women do this. I went through hell and back to rid myself of the patterns and behaviors that were taught to me as a child by my mother and father. It is not an easy process. I worked very hard to break the cycle and I've been pretty successful at doing so. I am now in a great relationship. A relationship that is loving, equal giving and taking, equal support. It is amazing to be able to finally experience what I thought was not possible.

You have a daughter, correct? You are responsible for her upbringing. Right now you are teaching her about her worth as a person, as a woman in society. Right now you are teaching her what kind of behavior is appropriate for a man's treatment of women. Right now you are setting her up for successful relationships or you are setting her up for game playing, low self esteem, possibly abusive type of relationships.

This post has been locked after the recent foray into personal comments regarding other CC users. We have a very low tolerance for posts that are disruptive, which this post has been from the start, and less tolerance for posts which negative discuss other CC members.