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Help! My freind says: "There is no Starvation Mode. Cut more calories"

Help! I need to be pointed to an article or post where it explains that cutting calories too far is counterproductive.

I was running a high caloric deficit (accidently- not adding everything up carefully and drawing the right conclusions); about 1400 to 1600 calories a day. Last month I added calories and now my deficits run about 950 to 1100 daily. I checked my numbers carefully (intake and expenditure), so I have confidence they are accurate.

I asked for advice in breaking my weight loss plateau in another forum. One guy ( a bodybuilder ) responded that I need to cut my calories further, no matter where they are at now, and no matter what the deficit would be. Here is what he said:

You can fail all you want but I will give you the straight scoop.

If you are at an EXTREME DEFICIT and not loosing weight you are not at a deficit of any sort. Pretty damned self explanatory.

It takes EXTREME calorie dropping if you have a slow metabolism. Lots of discipline. Which are not capable of if you intend to get lean by eating more calories.

It is easy to lose fat. Cut calories further. I eat about 1000-1500 a day when cutting fat. You can listen to the diet advice of skinny guys or steroid users all you want and you will fail if you follow their advice if you are not a steroid user or skinny guy. At the very least you will take longer to reach your goal.

Bulking gains fat. Cutting loses muscle. It is easy to lose fat... just starve yourself down. It is hard to gain muscle EXCEPT when you are artifically small. So you can waste months of progress in building muscle on your cut (it will all go away as yo ucut off the now 70 pounds of fat you have excess) or you can cut NOW and build back what you lost (a few pounds of muscle) in weeks. Waste the months if you like... its not the best way to get where you want to be.

You are not going to get buff and lean at the same time eating 3000 cals a day. Sorry to burst your bubble.

PS: There is no starvation mode where the body holds onto all its fat. You simply lower your metabolic rate through an enzymatic reduction in thyroid conversion. You can easily overcome this by cutting calories further. There is no "hold onto fat" response... just a lower overall metabolic rate. Your body can only adjust your BMR about 1000 calories a day by altering these thyroid levels.

See you wont listen... YOU CANT NOT LOSE WEIGHT IN A CALORIC DEFICIT! YOUR MATH ADDING UP EVERYTHING IS WRONG... THE SCALE DOES NOT LIE.

*****

Is he right or wrong? I've seen warnings about cutting calories too far, but I can't find them at the moment. Can someone please point me to them?

*Jaw Drops*

None of that even makes sense logically, I'm sure you will get a flood of posts with links for this. Holy cow =|

Here I pulled this from another thread:

http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories /burning_calories/starvation.htm

If that guy is seriously doing what he's saying, he is doing great damage to himself.  If he had seen even one doctor about this they would tell him so.

Take advice with a grain of salt and do more research.  

ayeguy, he is right in the sense that every study of people on super low calorie diets did continue to lose weight.

Otherwise, he/she is belligerent and giving unhealthy advice.

plateaus are very frustrating, but my personal philosophy is, if you have a good program, the plateaus will break themselves.

What is a good program?  Ah, there's the rub, knowing what a good program is.

In my non-expert opinion, a good program is one that:

1.  Correctly identifies the individual's calorie budget for goal weight maintenance.  Notice I say "goal-weight" not current weight.

2.  The calorie budget incorporates a range of calories, for flexibility in planning, variety, and zigzagging.

3.  The calorie budget does not result in a deficit greater than 1000 calories per day

4.  Wise food choices to ensure that the calorie budget provides the best nutrition possible.

5.  Exercise is at least at the light activity level.  (some people may have to work up to light activity gradually)

6.  Exercise level is intensified periodically to provoke better fitness, particularly after a plateau has set in.

If your program  is sound, trust it and just stay the course.  You will reach a healthy weight.

>>>there is no starvation mode... just a lower overall metabolic rate.<<<

isn't that all anyone ever said starvation mode was?

bleh.  he's suggesting it's GOOD that you have a slow metabolism and have a doughy  physique because your body decided to burn muscle instead of fat. of COURSE you will lose weight at an extreme deficit. but you can also lose fat and get the right nutrients eating the right amount... to me, that's hardly a choice. my 0.02.

I think this guy is being very mean and inconsiderate. He says that it's easy to lose fat. He doesn't understand that men have higher metabolic rates due to more muscle mass. He may find it easy to lose weight, but if this were true for everybody, why is obesity such a problem in North America?

That guy's mean. Haha!

Jeez.

I'm in nursing school. We talked about starvation mode in nutrition class, and so it's not a myth. It's an actual process. The question isn't whether or not it exists; the question is what is the best method to trick the body out of it? If I had the answer, I'd tell you. Some people argue you should cut your calories further (like this dope), but I'm not an advocate of that.

For me, personally, and that's what I think nutrition should be about -- individual bases --, I find it works better to trick the body by increasing my calories for a little bit, and then reducing them again. Just my two cents.

And that guy's a jerk. If you want to persuade someone, you win more flies with honey. Didn't he take a writing course at any time in his career?

He's right in some things, and completely misguided in others...when you're in starvation mode, you're burning everything, not just muscle. You burn muscle and fat.

Well my nutritionist - PH.d. certified - has talked about starvation mode. Unless his PhD is bs, which I know it isn't, then that person is on crack. 

I have found that when I hit a plateau increasing my calories slightly for one day then decreasing them again seems to work. The amount you increase shouldn't be very much it is individual though since only you know what your daily caloric intake should be. Best of luck.

-lost 60 in three months starving myself (eating very little) and gained it all back.  Just watch your calories and go day by day, weight yourself always wearing the same amount of clothing, and write it down on a calendar, make sure you go to the bathroom enough and if not eat more fiber.

 P.S this guy is a moron and obviously isn't very educated or tactful in his explanation of things. 

>>>Otherwise, he/she is belligerent and giving unhealthy advice<<<

He is a known contrarian on that board...in fact, his user name is "devil", no kidding!

But, he had to get his knowledge from some source...the gym, of course; all sort of unhealthy and unsound "lore" gets passed around in thoise places, I'm sure. And, since it "worked" for him, he stands by it.

Still, even I am uncomfortable upping my calories by so much. Only time will tell I guess.


 

Frankly, he's an uneducated, ignorant idiot.

There's a lot of people in the world that insist that the Holocaust never happened.  If your friend is going to be that stubborn, that uninformed, and that belligerent, then I would stop listening to his advice.  Let him believe whatever crap he wants to believe and you do what you know is right.  No matter how much proof you show him, he isn't likely tyo change his mind.

Have mercy, the poor guy is starving himself and his brain has quit working.  You know they say garbage in garbage out well in his case it gets in and just sits there fermenting.  Brains can't work on no calories any more than the rest of your body.  try this post it may help.

http://www.calorie-count.com/forums/post/4815 .html

As a physician, I can state that he is truly WRONG!

A great reference and plan is:

You: On A Diet: The Owner's Manual for Waist Management by Mehmet C. Oz, MD and Michael F. Roizen, MD.

This is a great book- also comes in an audiobook format (great for commuting).

These well respected physicians discuss the physiology of digestion, weight gain and loss, as well as, a great lifetime nutrition and exercise plan.

A starvation diet will cause your metabolism to slow down and hold onto your excess weight.

Your friend is a JERK.

He's not really a "freind"...just a guy on a discussion board I go to.

He's still adamant he's right; the information about the dangers of under-eating don't appear to be common knowledge. No wonder so many dieters are failing.

If he's a lifter, he probably knows what he's talking about, I've been lifting 12 years, but there are dudes out there on another level than me, and they have this game down to a science.  Try this instead.  Keep your calories the same, except only eat raw or steamed veggies, fruits and fish or lean red meat, poultry in 3oz portions 6 times a day.  Eliminating grains and breads for a while. 

Good Luck

I want to share this information. Not to beat a dead horse, but to educate people who may not have seen this previously.

Quoting zshenry from a previous post:

The physiological process referred to as starvation mode is certainly not a myth.  When entering starvation mode, your body does not in fact become more efficient - quite the opposite occurs.  It more readily stores fat to prepare for the emergency, because your metabolis shifts from using glucose as a primary fuel source to using triaglycerols, pyruvate, lactate, and alanine.  Your metabolism slows down (really meaning the number of mitochondria in the cells is down-regulated), more of the food you consume is converted to triglycerides for processing by the liver to be stored as adipose tissue.  After about 3 days of starvation, the liver forms large amounts of acetoacetate and d-3-hydroxybutyrate.  Their synthesis from acetyl CoA increases markedly because the citric acid cycle is unable to oxidize all the acetyl units generated by the degradation of fatty acids. Gluconeogenesis depletes the supply of oxaloacetate, which is essential for the entry of acetyl CoA into the citric acid cycle. Consequently, the liver produces large quantities of ketone bodies, which are released into the blood. At this time, the brain begins to consume appreciable amounts of acetoacetate in place of glucose. After 3 days of starvation, about a third of the energy needs of the brain are met by ketone bodies. The heart also uses ketone bodies as fuel.  Prolonged starvation mode will result in organ failure eventually, one by one, as blood glucose levels are not sufficient to provide energy to both the brain (which takes its share first) and other organs in the body, and the breakdown of proteins for the carbon skeletons fotr the formation of glucose occurs (first from the muscles, then from the organs such as the heart and liver - this it what leads to death).  In addition, phosphorus levels go down significantly, and a sudden return to normal eating from starvation mode can be lethal, as the phosphorus levels in the body suddenly surge (refeeding syndrome).  Please pick up a textbook on biochemistry, physiology or molecular biology before making such an off-base statement as "Starvation mode is really more of a myth."

What an idoit! I'm surprised the moderators don't delete every entry he logs!! If you have a 500-800 calorie deficit every day, you will loose weight. What he is suggesting will make you loose weight fast, but when you eat normally again, and you will, you'll gain it all back two fold. Check out this article, long read, but worth the time. here!

BG

Wow, HK! Thanks for the science lesson.

I plan on re-posting that on thjat board I doubt it will put a dent in Devil, but hopefully others will read it and heed it.

Here is a fabulous article - I don't remember who posted it to start with but I found it in lollipop's profile - about how cutting cals too much does not help losing weight.

In fact, it's a profile of someone who could not lose weight at 700 cals a day - an obese person - and it explains it all, including starvation mode, which, yes, is a slowing of the metabolism, as we all know.

Hope this helps!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/core_march_8. htm