HELP!!! Do nice guys always end up last?

I am someone who finally decided to get back out in the cold world of dating. (hahaha, how dramatic)..I am not going to lie to you...I was scared to death since I had been out of commission for a while and my handy dandy dating survival/instructional book was out of date.:-))) I have no problem starting up a conversation with women and developing a friendship with them...in a matter of fact THAT IS MY DILEMMA and MY BIGGEST OBSTACLE...somehow I always guide myself straight to the "friends only" zone...In the past few years I have been that person that everyone has heard about...you know...the chubby jolly fellow who makes everyone laugh and is always the third wheel..the one who is available at 2:00 am to listen to friends babble on the phone about everything...you might also know me by other names such as the designated driver, the mover, the safe companion, the bug killer, the handy person, the pick up and delivery guy, "I have no one to go with me" emergency friend, etc etc...you get the picture. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the plutonic friendships but I can only take so much the standard issue "I like you only as friends" line, or "You are a great guy and I wouldn't want to do anything to ruin our friendship"....This is why I am asking this question...and please be brutally honest...Is being a nice guy maybe hurting my chances? Do I need to become less accessible? or maybe after all my weight is really the issue? I am trying to believe that "looks aren't important" phrase but I somehow I think they are...

  ok. Looks do matter. People are more shallow than they like to admit. Its a sad truth, but truth none the less. Nice guys do have it rough, but often end up in more meaningful relationships eventually. I like nice guys, but, you gotta make sure you're not a stompably nice guy. You have to stand up for yourself sometimes. when people need you to help them with something or be that "emergency friend" you just gotta say no once in awhile, and that you are busy. If you are always there whenever people call on you, they will likely take advantage of you.

But thats just the way I see it.

Maybe try going to some of those singles retreats/outings/gathering tyoe things. That way you are saying "Im interested in starting a relationship" and you skip that whole just friends stage.

Honestly??!!......... 

Sometimes there is such thing as "too nice". You have to set limits for yourself as far as "availability". Women love to have a "friend" that is always there to help. Unfortunately, sometimes we take it a little too far. As long as you rush to meet every need a "friend" has ...the more they will call on you when needed. Its ok to be a friend and help people out... but try putting limitations on it. Especially when you meet someone new... if you start out as a friend.. you are more likely to stay there. Its ok to say No...

Wow!  I just had an almost identical conversation to this one on the phone.  I used to think it was my weight that kept me from attacting the opposite sex, but no, there are heavier and less attractive women than me walking around with good husbands and boyfriends.  Lack of confidence is at least partly responsible..I have made it that far with my reasoning.

I don't know how to flirt, never have.  I once never had a problem approaching men though.  I was always a little bit of a tomboy and had more guy friends as a child than girl friends.  Apparently I can't break that cycle.  I approach a man to talk and before you know it I'm the female version of everything you just described.  I've got a new best bud and he calls me to tell me his girlfriend woes or whatever.  Like you, I love my platonic relationships and some of my very best friends are men, that I originally approached because I thought they were attractive and/or interesting, but I'd like to figure out how to stop being "one of the guys" to everyone I meet and start being a prospective date for someone.  

I have no clue how to help you...if I did I'd help myself while I was at it, but I just wanted to let you know you aren't alone in this and it's not a situation that only males have to endure. 

Good luck and if you find a solution I'm begging you to share!  =))

Okay, I don't really see any problem with being too "nice." What does become problematic is putting everyone else before yourself, because that indicates a lack of confidence. If you want to reform your romance strategy a bit, I would not stop being so "nice." What I would do is make sure I was valuing myself properly, making sure that the things I do are what is best for ME, not for everyone else.  So if a friend asked me to do something that I really didn't want to do, I would say no. But if I did want to do it, I would say yes, and I would have a great time with her, and hopefully she would have fun too, and if that kept occurring, I see no reason why she wouldn't start having feelings for you.

Looks matter, but as motivateme said, there are plenty of unattractive people with great relationships.

Good luck!

-A "nice" girl

There are ALL kinds out there. Sure, looks "matter" to a degree but that is SOOOOOOOOO subjective it almost doesn't matter. Some people are going to find us attractive -- some won't. It's all a matter of taste, of course!

There's nothing wrong with being a "nice guy" -- just don't allow people to walk all over you. You have obviously CHOSEN this role of the "nice guy -- always the friend, never the lover." I'm not quite sure how you can change this -- hopefully someone else has some ideas -- but don't stop being nice! You have to BE who you ARE -- just tweak it. Really, it's more OUR problem -- the girls that go for the "bad" guys -- it's not you!

I also want to say that weight is an issue only if YOU make it an issue -- that goes for ANYBODY and EVERYBODY. I have some very large friends that are very happily married. For some of these couples one of them is slim and the other is not.

It's probably not the weight, you sound like  agreat guy!
I think that it is important to act for yourself, to put your own desires in front of other people's. If you love being the designated driver, then keep it up. But if you really feel like drinking this time, say something! Join in with the fun, and dont worry so much about doing the "nice" thing. Sure, being nice is nice, but not if other people start taking advantage of you. And while niceness is attractive, doormats are not. Noone wants a guy who cant stand up and say what he wants when he needs to . So do what YOU want!

Weighing in as a guy,

Happyguy, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Let me tell you some of the things I've learned since I actually got in a better relationship

1) Girls like confidence.  They like a guy with a little bit of a swagger, one who has faith in himself and his abilities. One who knows he's GOOD at something.. whether it's that he's smart, that he's athletic, etc. I think confidence is the number one thing you can do for yourself right now. And assuming you're anything like me when I was younger, you'll have to fake it until you believe it. Take a look at yourself... don't you have certain gifts that girls will find interesting? Perhaps you've got a great sense of humor, or are a geek worthy of a great geek-girl, or.. whatever. There's SOMETHING about you that'll make you attractive to girls.

2) You don't find love. Love finds you. This frustrated the HECK out of me when I was younger. Everyone said it to me and it didn't make sense and I wasn't patient, but it's true. Love finds you, often when you're not looking. So, until love finds you, it's time to work on yourself. Hey, man, we're all human, we all have things that can be worked on. Perhaps now is a GREAT time to work to become thin and healthy, for yourself, not for some future woman. Or perhaps it's time to work on getting your degree in something you find interesting. Whatever it is, make yourself as happy as you can, and confident.

Good luck to you and I hope you understand that I really do understand what you're talking about.

Hi!

I'm close to your age (a few years older) and am trying to get out into the dating world after a long time too.  We were talking in the chat the other day and all of the women said that intelligence and humor are way more important than looks. 

I agree with everyone that you need to not be so nice (and available) to help everyone out.  I do believe that this contributes to the just being friends. 

I'm working on the self-confidence thing too because everyone says that is what makes a difference.  And I believe it.

Good luck to you!

What Hkellick said : ).

My husband is a 'nice guy', but is also confident and hard working.  No swagger, but stole my heart all the same : )

I agree with what's said above, except, I would see it more as an issue of respect.

If your friends are calling on you for help or 'emergency go with me's and not giving you much notice, that's rude. Don't do it.

It's often said that you teach people how to treat you by the behavior you accept from them.  If you go along with their plan, they'll assume everything is fine and dandy.

So don't be mean.  DON'T stop being nice.  I <3 nice.  Just respect yourself and require it of others.  If a friend calls and asks if you can go somewhere and doesn't give you like, at least 5-6 days notice, say Sorry, I wish you'd have let me know earlier, I would have cleared my schedule for you.  Doesn't matter if your schedule is actually full or not, you're teaching them how to treat you.

((hugs))

hk is right - love will find you.

Happy guy, nice to meet you, and I the girl version. lol. I get calls from my guy friends that work 2nd shift (when they get home) "hey, come over please, I'm bored." I get asked on lots of dates, and then most the time, its one date and then we are "just friends" If you figure out how to change this, let me know! lol.

But, I do think becoming ,in your words, less accessible has helped a little. Be busy. Or pretend to be.

I agree with what people said about making sure that you're fulfilling your needs, while still being nice.  I would also like to add that if you are attracted to someone, in addition to being kind, maybe you want to add a little flirt into the conversation.  After all if you're having completely platonic, albeit "nice" conversations, girls just aren't going to see you as an option.  Compliments are always good, as long as they're not sleazy, and a smile helps.  Most importantly, don't just say what you think people want to hear, let your own interests and personality shine through.  That's what is going to make you stand out to a woman and ultimately pull you out of the "go to guy" role.

hey happyguy,

i'll be honest with you. there is a such thing as too nice! i've been single for the past 8 months after getting out of a long relationship. i've gone on a bunch of dates, and i'll tell you it didn't work out with a few of the guys because they were just TOO nice! now don't get me wrong here, nice isn't always bad. girls like to be complimented, and treated well. but too nice is just....icky. it makes you think "buddy" or "big brother". not sexy. looks are important to a certain extent, but really, for me they aren't everything. i'd much rather date a confident, fun, cool guy who was overweight than a nervous, insecure, too nice model.

it's ALL about the confidence! don't act nervous around girls. act like you could have any girl in the room, even if you don't believe it. put out the vibe that the girl is lucky to be spending time with you. a few of the guys i went out with sat there staring at me like they were terrified. not a turn on. be relaxed, be yourself! be assertive! say you ask a girl out to dinner or drinks, tell her you know a good place you want to take her, open the door for her, point out things on the menu that are good. be nice to the waitress, and when the check comes don't let there be that weird moment, slap money in there without a break in conversation. it might be old fashioned, but i never expect to pay on the first date. act like it's a non issue. believe me, girls like that. don't let anyone walk all over you! and like someone said before, it definitely happens when you aren't really looking! 

Thanks to everyone for all of the objective feedback and the positive advice...it sounds like I definetly need to make some adjustments when it comes to my assertiveness and availability....I need to find the line between being a "nice" guy and being a doormat...:-))) As for my confidence, well that needs some work too...I am not "dog" ugly...hahaha...in a matter of fact I believe  I am a good looking guy from the neck up ...hahahaha...but I think at a certain point I start letting the weight issue get in my head and that is where my confidence goes bye bye......I am currently working on my weight issue and I am happy to report I am doing good (lost 12 lbs so far)...

This is my first time posting anything in any type of forum...and I am thankful I did... :-) 

happyguy-

You are 38. 
Have you ever been in a relationship?  That sounds harsh, but truly it indicates that your confidence must be the problem.  If, for 38 years, you have not attracted a woman, then they are picking up that there is something missing.

Did you "go out of commision" because of your weight or something like a divorce, etc.? 

If you knowingly went out of the scene because you had put on weight, then there's your answer.

Jules said it perfect. Confidence, confidence, confidence. Don't get shy, don't get nervous, don't look for pity...no self-loathing. Bring the $$, I would never expect the girl to pay for anything. Keep the conversation light and fun.

My self image can be terrible at times. When I am around my friends, or on this website, or just by myself I let out my insecurities. But when I go out, I am confident in who I am as a person and I KNOW I look good (eventhough that may not be the case). That attitude makes all the difference in the world.

Happyguy - first let me say I like your nickname. Being a happy person is definetly important quality for a mate!

I agree with the others that confidence, etc is important. However, one thing nobody has mentioned yet is this: do you come across as someone who will happily settle for ANYONE - she just because they want you back? I.e., she breathes, she likes me, that's all that matters?

Because that scatter-shot approach doesn't work very well. It may be that you've given these women the impression that there's nothing special about them. People like to think they are special. If you give off the impression that you just want a girlfriend - any girl will do - that may be your issue here.

What's really sexy and powerfully compelling is when a guy wants YOU for YOU. Not anyone else. Just you. And he makes it known. And you get a clear idea of why, exactly, he wants you over and above every other gal on the menu. If you're the guy that will jump for any young pretty blonde and help her move, chat at 2:00 am, etc... then how am I to know that I am special in your eyes? See what I mean? I would want to know that you only jump to move things or take my 2 am call because it's ME.

Also one other possibility, and I have to ask this, even though there's nothing in your post that has led me to believe this about you. Just ruling this one out:

Do you by any chance practice reverse discrimination without realizing you do? Do you only strike up conversations and notice the women who are slender and attractive, while there's a perfectly nice less-than-slender woman you don't even see? I ask this, because I do know a lot of men who are like that, and don't even realize that's what they are doing. You may not be one of them, but I figured it didn't hurt to ask!

Oh - I have one other thing I need to ask!! You mention being out of the dating world for a long time. Are you recently divorced or separated? Do you have young children?

This is important because you may be sending a vibe or the women in your life may be seeing something you're ignoring: you're not as available as you think you are. Or shouldn't be as available.

I mention this because I'm thinking about my brother-in-law. He's freshly separated and has three young kids. He's going through a terrible custody battle. But all he can think about is how lonely he is, and how much he wants to find a new girlfriend!!! It drives me and my DH totally crazy.... he can't find a girlfriend because women take one look at his situation - 1) he's not yet divorced 2) his relations with his ex are still quite hostile 3) he's in the midst of a nasty custody battle and 3) he's got kids who really, desparately need every last shred of his attention. It's obvious to us that no smart woman would be stupid enough to enter that situation!!! And yet, he can't see it himself... can't understand why he keeps getting the "let's be friends" line!

Hi brooksbp,

I have been in previous relationships before my divorce...(I got married at 26...divorced at the age of 33) My divorce devastated me and after that I was not ready to jump in another relationship right away. I concentrated all my energy and time in obtaining my MBA and raising my son (that is why I went out of the scene)...now I have my degree and my son is older and he understands things better...through out this time I have met women at school, work functions, through other friends, etc...but it seems like I never make it past the "friends" stage which tells me two things...1) they enjoy my company since they still call and ask me to hang out 2) I need to make some adjustments when it comes to my assertiveness and availability 

No worries...I didn't think your posting was harsh...just asking for the facts! :-)

I have never been good at flirting either, I am too shy and there's a self-confidence issue. But I am not here to talk about me. Well, almost. I can talk from the point of view of being the woman who broke up with a nice guy.

I dated a guy (very nice) for a long time. The problem is that he was nice because he had no self esteem. He was doing all kinds of things for oter people, including me, because it was his way of trying to be loved and accepted. His "niceness" was hiding a deep depression, which I realized after a while. I tried to help, I tried to live with it, but in the end I met another guy, much more self confident, enthousiastic about his work, about all kinds of stuff and I fell in love with him. Now I am married to this self confident person. But you know what? This self-confident person who is my husband used to be not self-confident at all. He used to be depressed and single, could not get a date for years. But 2 years before I met him he started going to therapy and it all changed from there. Our marriage is the proof of that.

So you see, it might "just" be that. It is not easy to work on improving self-esteem but I too am working on it and once you put your mind into it, it works!